Dream-- the last time there was a site outage 9two days ago, I believe, for almost an entire day, I noticed that games that would have timed out during the outage did not time out. So maybe Fencer has made it to that the clock stops during outages.

Regarding hwat Tony H said--- I have to agree with him. lAst week was problematic, but the last few days I have had no trouble getting on or making moves.

it may not cause the site to be inaccessible, but it probably slows the site doen when it is accessible.

Why is it needed? If someone wants the creeen refreshed, there is a refresh button. Clicking any link on any page refreshes anyway, so who needs the auto refresh ?

yes, I agree that the auto refresh should be deleted.

IYT did not have ratings because they feared people would cheat, and sure enough, people could probably set up multipls accoutns and play both sides of a game.... and I say....... so what?????

yes, it is disturbing and annoying, but that's just something that will happen qwith a ratings system. Over at Dweebo's stone games a player tried this very tactic, and in fact, he seems to create a new account for a new rating whenever his rating falls. but people know he is a phony.

People will know these players are phonies by reviewing their games won and lost. People kow who the real gamers are anyway. so if someone were creating multiple accoutns for ratings purposes

If I had to guess, I would say it means he was reigstering a new account.

maybe you should take a vcation. You didn't even say which game you are talking about.

Fencer has about 80 games going, and most of them were his opponent's turn to move last time I checked. This indicates to me that he makes his moves fairly regularly, and he probably knows when the site si running slowly. I could be wrong, but I am not sure it three is any opint in people's writing here every time three is slowness. It seems thel ast few dozen messages have been almost identical-- "The site is slow" with some extra stuff added on to each one. Maybe there should be a separate "the site is slow" messageboard, because eventually people will stop bothering to read this board if every post is about the site being slow.

people, give Fencer a break! occasionally, computers do not work properly and they move slowly. If youare worried about gamed timing out, don't leave them until the last minute, because computers can lag at any time, that is justthe nature of computers.

it takes a short while for your membership to take effect, definitely within 24 hours and probably sooner.

Check TonyH's Original post, called "resignations," that was the post that started the thread, and he did not mention pente. I was just using examples from the game I know best.

jon-- chill! let's not have any more flame-ups on the boards. Relax. Now, this is about game ettiquette in general, not just pente. What is being discussed applies to all games, not just pente, and it applies to the general attitude of players during games. I was using pente as a convenient example, but the issue is applicable to any game.

double grin :))

The in game language is interesting.. Often when one says "gg," in fact, it was a total blowout, and not a particularly good game, but, what I think is really meant by "good game" is that the other person was polite and a good sport about it. But, many of our little phrases in English are used without regard to what they actually mean. FOr instance, everyone says "HIm good luck" at the start of a game (well, almost everyone), but, do you really want your opponent to have good luck against you? Of course not. BUt, I say it too. I guess it could mean "I hope we have a good solid game where I am able to win by some means other than a careless error," because those are the gmnaes that are really challenging and lead to improvement.

So, I often say "good luck" to my opponents as well. If for no other reason than just to be polite and get conversation started.

Tony-- I HATE it when an opponent plays on in an obviously lost position. Sometimes amng friends, we will do so just to goof around and to continue the conversation thread, maybe even placing stones in silly places on the edge of the board for a laugh. But otherwise, I just find it a pain. I think a good time to resign in pente is when the other player has an open 4 (with no interrupting captures) or has just threatened a 5th capture that cannot be defended. Why play on at that point? There are only two reasons: 1) hope that the opponent times out or 2) make a 4 of your own somewhere and hope that your opponent forgets what was happening in the game and forgets that he just made a game winning open 4.

Either way, I think the sportsmanlike thing to do is to simply resign, say "good game," and move on.

Of course, there may be an exception-- if you find yourself in a lost position that you are ONLY in because you made a careless error yourself in a game that you woul have otherwise won, then of course you will probably want to play it out until the final moment to see if your opponent accidentally returns the favor with a similar error.

There are two things you can do:

1) Along the lines of what Harley said-- when you have a clear forced win, say "Good game" to your opponent and maybe he wil get the idea and resign. You cna even explain (politely) your forced win.

Drawback-- what if you are wrong and are overlooking soemthing? You will look like a fool, and worse, your opponent might think you were actually trying to pull the wool over his eyes!

2) If you have a forced win and the opponent is dragging the game out needlesly, you can do the same back at him! Keep taking captures to really turen it into an ass-whopping, or keep making trias and other threats, passing up winning moves as long as you cna drag it out, and then maybe next time the player will resign with some dignity.

But-- another possibility-- a beginning player might not see a forced win by his opponent as early as the opponent sees it; that is something else to keep in mind.

There is really only one thing that truly upsets me, that I consider completely unacceptable--

If the opponents says to you "Well, good game, you got me, I have lost, well played, I can't stop you now, etc. etc. etc.," BUT then instead of resigning or just playing at A1 or T19 (which players often do as a means of showing they are giving up), the player will instead make a meaningless 4 of his own somewhere on the board. I hate that. One should not talk up his opponent as if the game were over and then try something sneaky like that.

Either 1) Just make your own 4 somewhere and don't say anything, or 2) congratulate him and resign.

But please, don't make a big deal out of congratulating someone as if you are accepting defeat only to try to get him off guard and miss your meaningless threat. I think that is extremely poor game ettiquette, and also a very cheap tactic.

I think reasonable people are usually able to overcome an initial unpleasant exchange, since we all want the same thing-- a good place to play games. And I think we do, Brain King is great. And who knows? maybe the existnence of Brain King will encourage IYT to deal with some of the issues that have upset some of their members.

Someone suggested an interesting solution just now on the features board about the "ratings sitters" who don't seem to want tp accept any challlenges.

I think it is amazing what Brain King has accomplished in 6 months or so, and with constructive discussion, I think it will accomplish much much more.

I woudl like to say that I am glad that one is able to remove his posts from these forums. A silly debate got out of hand, which was probably mostly my fault, and now the unpleasant posts have been removed by myself and the others. I'll try to thyink before I post in the future to avoid another heated exchange. Keep up the good work and I apologize again for causing a scene.

Clever Hunk, you responded to my post entitled "an attempt to cool things off." I am sorry if you did not feel it was effective in doing so. TTJazzberry and I have agreed to cool it and remove the earlier nasty posts from the board. I will do the same with my posts to NightHawk.

I don't think this means we should stop talking about things altogether, just that we do so in a civil manner.

I apologize for escalating the situation.

That's a fair point Rod. Most likely, a majority of those who posted a bunch of games for player 2 on the waiting games list did so with no shady motives. I just found it a bit off-putting to see them all there, as if everyone wanted to be player 1. I woudl guess that you are right in that most of them would accept a return challenge with the colors swapped.

There will be some who will refuse, and those people are not real gamers.

Perhaps I am a bit sensitive. I tend to go on the offensive if I feel like a good idea has been summarily rejected, especially with the "It's just a game" comment.

TTjazzberry-- IF you wish to start over, I can do that. We can have a clean slate, no insults, just discussion. Same with you NightHawk. If you guys call me by my right name and do not imply that I do not know the definition of an easy word such as "default," I will also refrain from the put downs. In general, people respond with insults only when faced with them. I don't know who started it and I am not sure anyone cares. It isn't important.

The focus of my posts is that I would like to see a separate column on the ratings leaders board showing the percentage of games played as player 1. I think this is a useful tool that adds to the ratings, becaue the rating alone does not give the full picture in a game like pente, keryo pente, or chess.

I realize not everyone is as serious about their gaming as I am, and I do not hold it against them. But, I also do not understand why anyone would object to having this extra column on the leaders page. A lot of people do care about the ratings--Striving to be the best pente player is a goal for me, and I think a lot of people want to be the best at something, so I would guess I am not alone. I realize that any system that has ratings will have ratings cheats, but why not take a small step to hinder their efforts?

Regarding those who post many games only as black: TTJazzberry and NIghtHawk are absolutely rightwhan they say that if it bothers me I do not have to play them. But, my point was, they are fully aware of what they are doing, and so it should not bother them if I call them out on the brainKing general focus board about it. I am not saying they should be banned from the site or punished in any way, but I see nothing wrong in my noting that some people are doing this, especially in a game where being black is a disadvantage.

Now, I think we can all discuss these matters civilly. I will tone down my speech so that we can do so, as that is the point on this board.

Last, I just want to clear up a misconception that may exist as a result of some of what has been said--when I play pente I am very polite and gracious, completely unlike the pompous arrogant ass I was called. I discuss strategy with my opponents and I always answer their game related questions. I help people improve their game any time they ask. I have always reinstated timed out games and granted an undo request at DSG.

I may lose my temper on these message boards and engage in petty squabbles (which we are ALL guilty of), but I always exhibit gamesmanship and sportsmanship when I play games with people.

Again-- I am not trying to put anyone down, I am just saying that certain frauds do not deserve their place atop the leader boards, and they know who they are.

TTJazzberry, I think you missed my point entirely. it's poor sportsmanship to play only using the color that has the advantage.

to everyone putting game invites on the main board, how about making some where you play Black?

Do you people really think no one will notice that you play only the stronger color?

Is there a way to disable the green tournament reminders that now pop up on the main page?

ha ha ha ha! TTJazzberry should do stand up comedy! I have to laugh out loud when I am called "DIM" by him, given his 1 win and NINE losses. That, and his inability to find the general chat board as he continues to post here instead. TTJazzberry, why don't we continue this eithr in private or on the general chat board?

By the way, to answer your question: "Ever wonder WHY a few dozen spell it that way?? and he calls ME the simpleton.."

No, I don't wonder why; I know why. They spell it that way because it the best "insult" their limited intellect allows them to come up. It usually comes from those who have no gaming skills and no debating skills, such as yourself. Maybe when you get your second Big win you can come tell me about how DIM I am again; meanwhile, maybe you want to check my 27-3 record before implying I am dimwitted, just to save yourself future embarassment! Hey, I am just trying to help you out!

Grow up TTJazzberry. your childish insults are pathetic. by the way, using the first three letters of my name to spell DIM--Wow! Brilliant! that has only been done by a few dozen simpletons before, and now you cna add your name to the list. Congratulations. Anyway, shall we continue discussing this on the general chat board? This discussion was supposed to be about the "last action" feature, which you used instead to slam danoschek. We all seem to agree that the feature is not needed, albeit for different reasons.

It is always indicative of one who has little to say when he relies upon remarks of the nature "I have a Life." It is usually uttered by those who are not good at soemthing and are jealous of those who are.

anyone who is alive has a "life." oh, and TTJazzberry, maybe you didn't hear, but the personal insults and snide remarks were moved to the general chat board.

Fencer, please consider eliminating this feature. I see no purpose for it, and the idea bothers me a bit. OOthers seem to feel the same wway.

"Dmitri: Yes, I think that IYT has this feature (two games). I can do it.
About tournaments - it is already done ;-)"

Awesome! You continue to amaze me with the efficiency with which you get things done. I think soem great tournaments will be held here in the future.

Jondownie, I agree with you, to a certain extent. I think players should still have the OPTION of creating a match with the current rules. But, I would also like to be able to do the following:

invite a player to a 2 game match, one of each color. Both games count for all purposes.
Pente and Keryo pente are usually played in pairs, so this is just a shortcut for having to send two separate invites--- Also, thep layer, under the current system, can decline the invite for the game where he is black, and accept the one where he is white.

Fencer, I think this would be a valuable addition ot the site, it is one of the few areas where I feel the site is lacking, because just about everything else here is great. Of course, I think priority should be given to enabling 2 game sets as an option for tournaments as well.

to everyone flaming Danoscheck for whatever reason... If Danoschek is the poison, then many of thep eople at IYT must be far worse than poison, whatever that is. If any of you don't like what he says, apply Bid Bad wolf's advice that he repeatts over and over (and over and over) AND DON'T PAY ANY ATTENTION TO THEM (the posts I mean).

I don't think there is really anything wrong with what he says-- but yet about a half dozen people made dozens of posts jumping all over him...

So everyone chill out. Danoschek may have soem odd posts, but he is usually civil, so I am not sure why he is called a spammer. As for whoever referred to him as "bannedoschek," well, his banning at IYT was total nonsense.

Danoscheck is making an excellent point that I think is being overlooked. What happened to him is a SERIOUS FOLLY on the part of IYT. screwing up the final round of a topurnament like that is about as big of a screwup as can happen, and they responded to it very poorly. Would any of you want soemthing like that to happen to you? Well, if not, what makes you think it won't? do you think they have a grudge against Danoscheck? That seems unlikely. SO what happened to him can only be chalked up to gross incompetence.

nighthawk.. you say "DO NOT invalve other innosent parties for they have no fight with these site that your on and they're not... "

who is involving innocent parties? We are simply stating the facts of ehat happened at IYT. Why are you and lindalou being apologists for their site? They screwed up, and our recourse is to a) not pay and b) tell others we think IYT is no god. If you purchase an inferios product, are you going to sit by idly while your friends suffer the same fate? NO, you will tell them (your friends) how much their products suck!

Well, that is what we are doing here. IYT has a long history is poor service, and they are reaping the rewards for their action! I would write to them a DOZEN times for ap roblem, and get the run around or no respsonse, or a response that insulted my intelligence.

And, what is all this crap about Ice Cream? Can we try to stay on topic? I would only veer off intop a discussion about Ice Cream if I felt my argument was lacking merit.

NIghthawk-- I am glad for you that you have not had the misfortune of lousy dealings with IYT, consider yourself lucky. Several of us have provided specific examples of their poor service, perhaps you could volunteer soem examples of their good service to you?

Lindalou, I must poitn out again that IYT does NOT have a million players. They used ot have the number of games played next to the number of registyered users-- and the number of games played worked out to about 1.8 per registered user. What does that tell you? Some people play hundreds or thousands of games, so the actual number of players is way below 1 million.

You say it is impossible to satisfy that many people?? What a cop-out! That is really lame. They should hire more people, or lowere their rates, NOT raise their rates and not hire more people. ALso, only a small portion of the users were paid members--- and even those people received poor service. They said they would look into a stats inaccuracy for me-- after a week of giving me total B___S__T reasons for the inaccuracy (which I easily shot down) they told me they would get back to me and never did. you say you never had a problem with them-- can you give an example of soemthing they did successfully for you? I know soem people who have had no problems, but they never had to request anything either...

Danoscheck, I very much doubt that ITY has a million players. that is just their number of registered users (many of whom have multiple user names), and many of whom never play a game or played one or two and then stopped.

"PS: That last paragraph where you say you are not sure what I'm saying here - I was just re-writing some stuff that Gary Barns had wrote.... that was all! :-)"

ok, but what point were you making by rewriting them?

as to the rest-- you mention it is not a good idea to offend the loyal IYT users. I have not met a loyal IYT user. If you do meet one, please have him contact me.

Also, you said the owners of the wite (Brain King) probably do not want anything negative associated with them. Who is associating anything negative with Brain King? The negatives are being associated with IYT....

no one is "spamming" message boards. Also, you say

"I think it is really good to let people know about BrainKing - BUT I think it is REALLY bad to talk bad about IYT and recommend another site in the same post."

why? I don't see it that way at all. It is a foregone conclusion that Gary and I will not be playing there any more, but we don't feel like leaving it at that-- IYT pissed off a lot of people and now they are paying for it! They deserve whatever bad publicity they get, it is their own fault. you make it sound as if the complaints against them are insignificant, you say

"So you think the owner and customer service dept. has an attitude. So you think that IYT has become one of the snobbiest businesses. So you think they have the worst customer service.
"

I am not sure what you are saying here-- it seems that you are minimizing the importance of these facts, when in fact, those are several major strikes agfainst IYT! Gary and I were paying members of IYT and like many others, we felt jilted by their terrible responses and service. We are encouraging people to play games at Brain King because Brain King has shown itself to be what IYT is not, and that is great!

Ultimate Stratego!!! Let's get that game here!

in go-moku, there are no captures, so running out of room might be more of a problem. I wouldn't know because I do not play the game, because I find it to be a poitnless and tedious game. In pente, with 5 captures ending the game, running of room is very unlikely. Is it more likely if the starting piece is not in the center? Sure, but it would be a concern for both sides, so I don't think it is a factor even then.

sundance, this is not exactly true. THe center is not necessarily the best move. I could make my first move 1 away from the center, and I am still in the same position as I was before (the game RARELY goes to the edge of the board). But, it woudl be very confusing to explain the second move restriction and diagram it without having the first move be in the center. I would say the first move restriction neither helps nor hurts either player, it is hte second move restriction that is key. And to answer what Kevin and cleverhunk said, YEs, white still has a significant advantage, top players almost never lose as player 1; but that also makes it a great challenge to come up with clever defenses against the white attack.

Cleverhunk, these are the correct rules for pente and keryo pente. Some other sites, in their carelessness, have not set up the game with the correct rules, which has led to great confusion. I am vey pleased to see Brain King has gotten it right with these two games.