AbigailII: "Two different colors" refers to
white and black knights not squares they land on ...
Andy.

Brianking.info mentions Knight 64, with some rules. The second rule "Two Knights of different colour" mystifies me. Bishops of different colour, I can understand, but Knights? They change colour after each move, don't they?

I guess it's meant that the knights are on different colours during setup - but then it still is not clear to me. Is it 2 knights each? Or does black have to place his/her knight on a different colour as white? If the latter, white has an advantage (the same advantage black has in Knight Fight because (s)he can place the knight on the same colour white did).

But regardless, I think white has a (small) advantage of going first. As I can distill from the rules, it's not always that black has as many moves as white - if the game ends because black cannot move, white will have had one more move. Furthermore, even if white and black will have had an even number of moves, on whites turn, there will be more numbers on the board than on blacks turn, which in the long run will give white an edge (because he has had more choices). The advantage is small, but still there.

I wonder, could the advantage be balanced by giving black 0.5 points at the start (meaning that if black and white collect the same number of points, black wins)?

coan.net: Now i have been thinking as well

How about, start of game you can only see BOTH start lines (all 1 & 10 ranks), just to give you a point to start from and also some reference numbers

So you choose first move (say A1) and submit it, now like Dark Chess you can now only see next available to you (C2 & B3) & what values were hidden. Once you opponent has moved, you then decide which move you want to make (C2 or B3) and once submitted, you can now see next ones available to you.

So you get to see the route as you take it AND also have to make notes of the squares you did choose along the way (a lot like Dark Chess).

So, now we have the game, lets add to the FUN.
I think we can introduce something else along the lines i mentioned earlier.

1) Start the game with 2 lives each (explanation coming up)
2) NO double numbers (i.e. 11, 33 etc..), all replaced by STARS (Bonuses, which will either be good OR bad)

STARS:
We could have 5 Good STARS ranging from Bonus points (50, 100, 150 etc) or Extra Life....anything positive basically AND
5 Bad STARS which would be Minus points or Lose a life....anything negative

3) Game is played as normal then on.
4) Game ends either no more valid move (like now) OR someone loses all there lives (if this way, most points collected wins).

I think the basics there could be make a real fun game, as there is a touch of chance gambling involved (play safe OR risk a Bonus).
There could even be the odd Land Mine about. Get caught somewhere when your only escape out is over a Land Mine square (hense, lose a life).
Who knows ? But it could be fun

just few words of wisdom I would like to share...
1. map the best deals on the board and look for clusters of 90s ... be there before your opponent gets there ..
2. Start with the highest deal ... but look for reasonable continuation ... sometimes it's better to start with middle number and have better jumps as a result ...
3. Eliminate opponent's high numbers in his/her starting row ... but be careful, high number you want to delete has its own low mirror on your starting point ... do not want to land behind from the very start ...
4. Always, before you move, analyse postion of your opponent ... try to cut his/her profitable path by using, if possible, your side of mirrors or doubles ...
5. When having advatage, try to make suicidal move as soon as you can ... watch for corners, some situations allows quick landing without an exit and win ...
I you have some more hints, please post them here.
Andy.

coan.net: I think Knight Fight is already dark enough. I certainly am not taking the trouble to scan a 10x10 board to match up the number pairs. I just look what move(s) I can play, and which moves my opponent can play, and I assume none of the squares disappear.

MadMonkey: Dark Knight Fight might be interesting - but not played the way you think.

If you don't know what points you could get - that would make the game a total chance game.... and would become an almost pointless game of getting on and moving.

NOW - how about if you can't see your opponent and can't tell which pieces he has removed UNLESS you have a direct line of sight.

That is lets say you plan ahead and in 2 moves you are going to hit the 89 spot - but first you have to hit the 23 spot to get to the 89. Well you move to 23, so your knight can now see the 89 spot - but opps - that space is already gone since your opponent landed on 98 3 turns ago and you did not know it.

So at the start of the game you see the whole board - but the spaces don't get "updated" unless you can view the space with your knight.

that is how I would make Dark Knight Fight

I think maybe white number would be better
0's & 8's look pretty much the same to me lol

MadMonkey: it's called Garden of Imagination by D.B Pritchard, the author of the "Encyclopedia of Chess Variants" ... let clone Knight Fight ...!!!

AbigailII: hmmmm good point, never thought of that

I just wanted to introduce a reason for getting '00', apart from eliminating it.

How about ideas to create a new version.

Maybe ALL doubles could be Random points OR pick ANY number to delete, and get the points for it.

How about Behemoth Knight Fight. Let him wander about Eliminating numbers he lands on, though that would need more thought as well.

Dark Knight Fight. What points will you get ?

There must be infinite ideas

MadMonkey: Well, that would leave you with 9 other double numbers, 8 of them that will disappear pairwise. What will happen if someone lands on the final double number?

Just a small thought, i am addicted to the silly game now & trying to thing of any modifications that can be made
One i thought would be quite funny. Landing on '00' you should get a random bonus score OR allowed to pick ANY number to delete, and get the points for it

rod03801: thanks, what I do I just look around opponent's squares with high numbers and than look at my highlighted squares ... it gives me hints what would be the best jump ... of course this is not so obvious since every jump has so many branches ...
Andy.

dicepro: I hope so! This looks like a great game!

I can be lazy though, lol. I guess I should just consider looking for the mirrored spaces as part of the challenge.

rod03801: I agree with you ... I think Fencer promissed somewhere to look at this ...

I think it would be SO helpful if the mirrored numbers were highlighted, like the possible moves are highlighted. (Maybe have the mirrored numbers be green or some other color) I get so frustrated looking for my move's "mate".

AbigailII: you are right, eliminating mirrors wil make this game even one more move longer, if played till the end ... it's still fast game ... compare to Ludo, Halmas, Reversi, Chess, racing backagammon, not even mentioning Go ...
I understand that you may find some rules inelegant, but I do not understand why ? Because numners differ from each other ? this is what you say ...... look, during the game, you will be trying to find the best "deals" ... one of the option will be to look for doubles or "7,8,9"
to limit opponent's choices ... and it's up to the author to define those "chosen" powerful numbers or features ... in Knight Fight it was kind of easy due to the size of the board ... here it's more challenging but I think it will be playable quite well ...
and you will excel in this game ... you showed me twice in Knigh Fight, that this concept is not a stranger to you.
Best regards, and keep commenting. I appreciate it deeply.
Andy.

dicepro: Ah, so "Knights of Fury" will even be longer than "Knight Fight". ;-)

In Knight Fight, no game can last past 50 half moves - then all the numbers have gone. As I see from you latest proposal (why are game proposals first posted here, then continued elsewhere???), the limit for Knights of Fury is 52 half moves (40 non-grouped numbers, 24 grouped numbers).

Personally, I find the rules still to be inelegant - numbers ending in 7, 8, 9 are different from numbers ending in 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

Oh well. I hope the game gets playtested well before it's implemented.

AbigailII: Abigaill, I appreciate your comments, as always, since they provide smart
insights into the game rules and so on ... however, I think I found out an elegant solution to Knights of Fury ... please read my last modification to the rules I posted on the blog ... mirrors are not used anymore, only 4 groups of numbers, those with digits 7,8,9 plus 6 doubles that give a margin of 37 percent of all the numbers on the board ... so, as an effect, we have well ballanced game having "solo" numbers and those that cause other numbers to disappear ... you are right, it will not be a shorter game but the illusion of having a smaller board will make it "shorter" ...
you were also right saying that 25 percent of numbers have no mirrors ... but, instead of lamenting I turned around the whole idea and gave up the need for mirrors and replaced them with non-mirrors as the numbers that cause disappearing ... as you can see, there are many ways to let the fantasy manouver around the issue ...
thanks again,
Andy.

dicepro: I'm not at all sure these rules will lead to a shorter game. Sure, there will be less squares, but my (short) experience so far with Knight Fight is that games end way before all squares have been visited. The game ends because one of the knights has no moves available, and it's the disappearance of the squares that causes it. But the dealing of numbers in "Knights of Fury" is clumsy and inelegant (because you're using decimal numbers and an 8x8 grid). As a result, over 25% of the numbers don't have mirrors. So, Knights of Fury starts with less numbers, but the numbers disappear slower.

Therefore, I suggest something else. Still use an 8x8 board. Use octal numbers (that is, only the digits 0-7 are used). Use the same rules as with Knight Fight when it comes to moving and disappearing of numbers. But don't count points. First person who cannot move his knight loses. And since going first is then a disadvantage, force black to start from a different coloured square than white.

AbigailII: ya, there should be some dummy numbers displayed ... u are right

I noticed that when you are accepting a game from the "Waiting games" page, you get to see the board before you commit yourself to the game. This is suboptimal - someone could go "cherry picking", not playing the game if the board is unfavourable, and only playing those games where the board is favourable.

OTOH, there's no penalty on deleting a game if it turns out that the board is unfavourable to you.

dicepro: Just use octal numbers.

on a smaller board ... read on, please.
I would like to propose a fast adaptation of Knight Fight, this time on a smaller board, 8x8 ... It was suggested by some players that 8x8 may have some advantage over 10x10 board ... frankly, it was my original idea which I gave up for a bigger board due to elegant usage of all digits from 0-9 ... Board 8x8 has its own limitations because the numbers with digits 7,8,9 cannot have their own mirrors ... so, I had to modify some usage of these numbers ... Rules are basically the same as for Knight Fight so let me talk about differences:
NAME OF THE GAME: "Knigts of Fury"

Out of 64 numbers there are:
40 numbers that have their mirrors (example: 34-43)
18 numbers that do not have their mirrors (example: 27-72)
5 doubled numbers (11,22,33,44,55)
1 STRANGE number, namely 56 ... which for this game is attached to doubled numbers ... that's the only number that doesn't have 7,8, or 9 in it, but still its mirror goes beyond the set of numbers from 1-64 ...
Management of these sets:
-Numbers with mirrors behave exactly like in Knight FIght ...
(mirror is taken out of the board)
-Numbers without mirrors behave exactly like doubled numbers in Knight Fight (after jumping on non-mirror numbers, player is asked to choose another non-mirror number to be taken out of the board) ...
-5 doubled plus number 56 ( there is no consequance after jumping on these numbers)
***
This game is very aggressive and fast moving due to relatively large number of non-mirror numbers and list of choices we will have ... board is smaller and this also contributes to the pace of this game ...
Hope you will like it.
Regards,
Andy Lewicki.

joshi tm: you are probably right ... chess variations are like garden of imagination ... there is no end to our fantasy ... Fencer is so busy that I am not going to push for this new version ... I would rather contemplate entirely different variant ...
Andy.

dicepro: For me, two games is perfect :) Since those two concepts are so different, with total different game play, that these are two games. I think the two-knight version is also top-fun and very playable.

joshi tm: I was considering this version ... without actually playing it there is no way to decide if this is a good idea ... for me, personally, one Knight is enough, the only improvement I would like to see is to have all the "mirror" squares visible at the same time and meditate on my strategy ... now we can see the squares we can jumo on but it would be really useful to see all the other squares that will be taken ...

How about playing Knights Fight using two knights per player instead of one? Should give somewhat more freedom and strategy.

Also eliminates Blacks Advantage wren playing it on the other colored square.

ScorpionOct64: Hi Mike, I like this game too ... but since I am the author it doesn't count, right ? I hope Fencer will do something with colors and sizes of the numbers ...and maybe even higlighting mirrors for our current jumps ...
Andy.

AbigailII: it looks like nature helped to make this game kind-of-equal for both sides ... but on the other hand, players do not even need approach each other if they choose so ... they may choose to grab as many high value squares and commit suicide ... this is one of the strategy I can see now ... Abigaill, thanks for your analysis ... I think this game has more to it than just jumping ... as one of my opponent said: you get out of this game what you want ... kids can play and collect points and computers can use their brain power to find a perfect solution for every possible move ...
Andy.

coan.net: correct, and I used it several times ... it's nice feature ... one should be careful and not help the opponent to commit suicide "with lots of money in his pocket", lol

AbigailII: That is interesting - something I did not think about before.

Of course I had thought that white would have the advantage from going first, but black can "counter" that advantage by starting on the same color square as white.

Of course if I'm black, would I rather start of the same color square as white - or start on the square which will lead me to the most points in my first 5 planned-out moves?

dicepro: No, I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that if the knights start on the same square, only the white knight can find itself blocked to access certain squares (because those squares are attacked by the black knight); if the knights start on different squares, only the black knight will be effected. And since it's black who decides whether the knights start on the same or on a different square, black has the advantage.

OTOH, white goes first, and that's an advantage as well (in this game, black will never have more moves than white, but sometimes white has one more move than black, and almost every move scores (except when hitting 00)). What the bigger advantage is, I do not know.

Rules

Just so I understand - lets say I see myself with a big enough lead in points. If I can then move myself to a dead-end position leaving me with no possible moves, my opponent will get 1 last move - then on my turn, I can't move so game over (highest points win)

Is that correct? I just want to make sure I understand before I move myself to a dead-end position.

AbigailII: Hi Abigaill ... I just jumped into this board and had no time to meditate on this issue ... so basically you are saying that in order to enforce the rule Knights should start on different colored squares ?
Thanks for your insight ...
Andy.

I wonder how much of an advantage the rule "a knight cannot land on a square which is under direct attack of the opponent's knight" gives to black. White has to place his knight first, and if black places his knight on the same coloured square as white, black will never be "blocked" by white's knight, while the white knight might find squares unavailable to it because of the position of the black knight.

Of course, if black puts his knight on a square of a different colour, white gains that advantage, but it's up to black to do this - white cannot influence it.

hi all....I love the new game...the only thing i have a problem with is my eye sight is a little bad and when the Knight is to move to a dark square the numbers are in blue and i cant see them very well...is it possible to change numbers to white when moving to a dark square ty

Mike