Artful Dodger: Oh, there you are. I don't mean the English feller, I mean.. Oh, there I am!

Iamon lyme: He sleeping for now.

Yup. Tumbleweeds and duststorms. And nowhere to float my boat. Where that Engish feller scoot off to?

Iamon lyme: I know. I guess the proponents believe that if they change the name it gives their fraud more credibility.

Artful Dodger: I think it's now officially called Climate Change... the greedy capitalists cashing in on this scam are covering their butts. If it all goes south they can claim "Hey, the climate changes all the time! Yesterday it rained, but today it's just cloudy. Tomorrow it's supposed to be sunny and warm. See? We weren't lying about anything."

"By the way, want to buy a few carbon credits? They are going for rock bottom prices. Business has been slow, so we have a huge back log of them. We need to move them out to make room for more. Prices have never been this low, but this offer won't last long. So act now and put in your order today, before we go to prison for ripping you off."

Iamon lyme: Suppress voter turnout? Is that what Republicans are trying to do? I don't think so.

They couldn't suppress voter turnout if they wanted to. With so many people out of work, and more on the way to being out of work, does Mz Pelosi really think no one is motivated to start seeing some kind of POSITIVE change?

For those of you who don't have a problem with supplying Mexican drug lords with weapons...

"Democrats argue that Issa and his GOP colleagues are using the issue to try to score political points by discrediting Holder and, by extension, the president in an election year."

"House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi, D-California, alleged last week that Republicans were targeting Holder because he is fighting their efforts to suppress voter turnout in November."

What if those weapons had instead fallen into the hands of our allies, Mz Pelosi? Would you still try sweeping it under the rug?

Senior Editor for the New York Incontinent Times reports that readership in his paper has increased over the past 6 months. Iamon lyme, whose national origin has been questioned because of his funny sounding name, said "People appreciate a fair and ballanced approach to the news. They also appreciate the fact that the paper we use is both soft and durable."

Wow... Does that mean we might have a successor for the title of "President who's policy killed the most Americans" award Iam? Nixon and Reagan moving to 2nd and 3rd place??? What about when Americans gave money to the IRA????

Washington (CNN) -- A war of words continued Tuesday over the possible contempt of Congress vote against Attorney General Eric Holder later this week, with the White House citing past examples of presidents claiming executive privilege in similar disputes over documents.

The White House response followed a letter Monday night from House Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa, R-California, that slammed President Barack Obama's assertion of executive privilege in the panel's probe of the botched Fast and Furious gun running sting.

With the House scheduled to vote Thursday on the contempt measure against Holder, the White House fired back against Issa with a list of past cases in which presidents asserted executive privilege for the same kinds of documents sought by Issa's committee.

White House spokesman Jay Carney told reporters Tuesday that House Republicans have made the dispute a political issue, while another spokesman, Eric Schultz, ridiculed Issa's analysis of the executive privilege claim by Obama.

Issa's panel has been seeking documents that show why the Justice Department decided to withdraw as inaccurate a February 2011 letter sent to Congress that said top officials had only recently learned about the Fast and Furious operation.

However, Holder has refused to turn over materials containing internal deliberations, and asked Obama to assert executive privilege over such documents last week.

In his letter Monday, Issa said Obama's assertion of executive privilege means that he and his most senior advisers were involved in "managing" Fast and Furious and the "fallout from it" or that the president asserted a power he knows is unjustified "for the purpose of further obstructing a congressional investigation."

"To date, the White House has steadfastly maintained that it has not had any role in advising the (Justice) Department with respect to the congressional investigation. The surprising assertion of executive privilege raised the question of whether that is still the case," Issa said in his letter.

Schultz responded that Issa's account "has as much merit as his absurd contention that Operation Fast and Furious was created in order to promote gun control."

"Our position is consistent with executive branch legal precedent for the past three decades spanning administrations of both parties, and dating back to President Reagan's Department of Justice," Schultz said. "The courts have routinely considered deliberative process privilege claims and affirmed the right of the executive branch to invoke the privilege even when White House documents are not involved."

A supporting document provided by Schultz listed five such cases, including an October 1981 assertion by Reagan involving documents describing internal deliberations inside the Department of the Interior and another by Reagan a year later involving internal Environmental Protection Agency files.

Republicans on Issa's committee approved the contempt measure against Holder for refusing to hand over all of the requested documents in the panel's investigation of the operation run by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

The vote last week came after Obama asserted executive privilege over some documents sought by the panel. The White House move means the Department of Justice can withhold some of the documents.

Opinion: Don't be nosy about Fast and Furious



A brief history of 'Fast and Furious'

Cummings: Obama had no choiceThe ATF launched Operation Fast and Furious out of Arizona to track weapons purchases by Mexican drug cartels.

However, it lost track of more than 1,000 firearms that the agency had allowed straw buyers to carry across the border, and two of the lost weapons turned up at the scene of the 2010 killing of U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry.

If the House passes the contempt measure Thursday, it would be the first time in history a sitting U.S. attorney general was cited for contempt of Congress.

"I urge you to reconsider the decision to withhold documents that would allow Congress to complete its investigation," Issa said in his letter. "I remain hopeful that the Attorney General will produce the specified documents so that we can work towards resolving this matter short of a contempt citation."

The showdown between Issa and Holder over the Fast and Furious program dates back to subpoenas issued by the House committee last year.

Issa and Republicans contend that Holder and the Justice Department are concealing details of how Operation Fast and Furious was approved and managed.

Democrats argue that Issa and his GOP colleagues are using the issue to try to score political points by discrediting Holder and, by extension, the president in an election year.

A video released Tuesday by Democrats on Issa's panel showed the chairman making past allegations of White House links to Fast and Furious, juxtaposed with Issa saying Sunday there was no evidence of a White House cover-up.

"Get the facts. Read the report," the video says in conclusion.

House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi, D-California, alleged last week that Republicans were targeting Holder because he is fighting their efforts to suppress voter turnout in November. (ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.. ohhhhhh, oh crap.. Sorry about that. I didn't see that one coming)

Issa, however, said in his letter that the assertion of executive privilege "raises more questions than it answers."

The letter provided details of a June 19 meeting between Issa and Holder on the eve of the committee's partisan vote on the contempt measure.

Issa said Holder wanted to "buy peace" on the matter.

"He indicated a willingness to produce the 'fair compilation' of post-February 4th documents. He told me that he would provide the 'fair compilation' of documents on three conditions: (1) that I permanently cancel the contempt vote; (2) that I agree the department was in full compliance with the committee's subpoenas, and; (3) that I accept the 'fair compilation,' sight unseen," Issa said in the letter, calling Holder's conditions "unacceptable."

"The attorney general's conditional offer of a 'fair compilation' of a subset of documents covered by the subpoena, and your assertion of executive privilege, in no way substitute for the fact that the Justice Department is still grossly deficient in its compliance with the committee's subpoena," Issa's letter said. "By the department's own admission, it has withheld more than 130,000 pages of responsive documents."

Issa also stressed the importance of forging a settlement rather than pursuing contempt of Congress proceedings, and asked the White House for answers to questions about the executive privilege assertion.

"To what extent were you or your most senior advisers involved in Operation Fast and Furious and the fallout from it, including the false February 4, 2011 letter provided by the attorney general to the committee?" Issa's letter said. "Please also identify any communications, meetings, and teleconferences between the White House and the Justice Department between February 4, 2011 and June 18, 2012, the day before the Attorney General requested that you assert executive privilege."

A senior Liberal Democrat MP has told the Leveson Inquiry that a lobbyist for Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation threatened that things would "turn nasty" if the group's bid for Sky was not passed through.

Speaking today (June 26) at the inquiry into media ethics, Norman Lamb said that News Corp lobbyist Fred Michel warned that Murdoch papers, including The Sun and the News of the World, would turn against his party if Lib Dem business secretary Vince Cable referred the takeover to Ofcom.

Lamb, previously the main adviser to deputy prime minister Nick Clegg, presented a note to the inquiry he had made shortly after meeting Michel in October 2010. Describing Michel's approach as "brazen", Lamb said the lobbyist had wanted "things to run smoothly" with the Sky bid, but warned that "if it goes the wrong way" he was "worried about the implications".

The note added: "It was brazen. VC [Vince Cable] refers bid to Ofcom, they turn nasty." Lamb claimed that the threat was offset with an enticement should Cable allow the Sky bid to proceed unhindered.

He said that it was proposed that The Sun would help persuade voters to back the Lib Dem's alternative voting (AV) system of proportional representation, which had been key to the party's coalition deal with the Conservatives.

Lamb told Lord Justice Leveson that got a "very clear understanding" from the meeting with Michel that News Corp's UK newspapers had been supportive of Lib Dems in the past, but that positive coverage could change quickly.

The note's final sentence says: "Implication was clear, News Int turn against coalition and AV [if bid does not go through]".

In another note, Lamb said that Clegg had been "horrified" to hear what Michel allegedly said in the meeting. Clegg is said to have fretted: "We will lose the only papers who have been positive."

Rhodri Davies QC, counsel for News International, insisted that Michel had never made any kind of threat, explicit or implicit, to Lamb about the proposed Sky bid.

However, Lamb's evidence follows statements to the Leveson Inquiry by Cable that he was made aware by his party colleagues of "veiled threats" that had allegedly been made about the stance of News Corp newspapers should he refer the bid to Ofcom.



He's such a nice guy *cough*

Bernice: lol

Iamon lyme: There's a bunch but over half of those are fake IDs anyway.

The Col: Well maybe you're right but it's been too quiet in here and we got on a roll.

An Obituary printed in the London Times.....Absolutely Brilliant!!!


Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense,
who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he
was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red
tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable
lessons as:
- Knowing when to come in out of the rain;
- Why the early bird gets the worm;
- Life isn't always fair;
- and maybe it was my fault.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend
more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not
children, are in charge).

His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but
overbearing regulations were set in place.

Reports of a 6-year-old
boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens
suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher
fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his
condition.

Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing
the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their
unruly children.

It declined even further when schools were required to get parental
consent to administer sun lotion or an aspirin to a student; but
could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to
have an abortion.

Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became
businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their
victims.

Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a
burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.

Common Sense finally gave
up the will to live, after a woman failed
to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a
little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust,
by his wife, Discretion, by his daughter, Responsibility, and by his
son, Reason.

He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers;
-I Know My Rights
-I Want It Now
-Someone Else Is To Blame
-I'm A Victim

Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If
you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and
do nothing.

Iamon lyme: okayyyyyyyyy

(V): "Though it is a common phrase!!"

Right, common to you and one other person here. From the time I was a teenager, I can count the number of times I've been accused of "nicking" on one hand. A failing grade on a paper (from a bone head teacher) in 8th grade English class, a friend in high school asking "Where did you read that?", and you. And a few others not worth mentioning, no need to involve the other hand.

I couldn't prove I didn't cheat on a paper in the '60s, but now there is google.. wish we had it then. So nick the web all you want, but next time google something if you think I don't have the brains to figure out this stuff for myself.

Artful Dodger: There are more of them?

Artful Dodger: I think the main question is, other than a small handful of people, does anyone care?
This is kids stuff, If you had pm'd this post it might make sense, the fact you posted it on a message board looks like whoever thinks you and lyman are the same may have a point.

Iamon lyme: Emma has the theory that you and I are the same and she's got some other fanciful theories about multi nics too. She feeds them to Jules and he eats it up like a hungry puppy. It's more fun to make things up as that pair believes fiction more than they do what's true. They are not alone.

Iamon lyme: there's no interest in fast and furious here. But on other forums it's a hot topic

Iamon lyme: Did they? ... I'll take your word for it that the chimps have been at the typewriters again. Though it is a common phrase!!

I am on lyme: Come Watson, we must hurry. I've informed Lord Bloatington of our arrival, and I wager the scandalous Lady Butterbottom will be there as well.

(V): "...it just looked almost exactly like something I read a few months back."

That's odd. Jungle Burger said almost the exact same thing a few pages back.

"...I thought I'd heard that saying before from somewhere else. :)"

Iamon lyme: I'm not talking about treating them as 'dimensions', more as the old style of calling time the 4th dimension. Then we get into gravity.. ... that one is strange... where does it go?

Science changes, when I learnt physics, electrons still went around in nice orbits none of this quantum existence, rotation and vast amounts of empty space. Light was a beam, not a wave and particle.

But 3D is cool.

(V): No, there's nothing wrong with using web based info. That's not my point. I anticipated someone telling me there are more than three dimensions. But the word 'dimension' has come to mean more than what it used to mean. I don't look at time or space as being 'objects', so I was obviously not talking about that. Nor was I refering to the multi-dimensions theorized to exist in String theory. But if you want to be technical about it, then yes, both time and space can be seen as dimensions. Since an atom is almost entirely made up of empty space, then it would have to be included in the definition of what a dimension is.

No one consulted me when they decided to expand on the word 'dimension'. I told them maybe they should try using other words, to avoid confusion, but did they listen? Nooooooo!

(V): Oh no run for cover lol

Iamon lyme: Is there something wrong with using web based info? Then if so..... we're all doomed!! doomed I tell ya

(V): Subject: Re: Time isn't a physical dimension, and I didn't nic anything off the web.

"Isn't it? The web (I just checked to be sure) states...

"Time is one of the seven fundamental physical quantities in the International System of Units"

And that tells you I've been nicking stuff off the web? Good work, Sherlock. You've solved another mystery.

Iamon lyme: Well there is a problem on alot of multi's on this site, even people logging into others accounts...... I'm sure Art can fill you in on this.

"If you spent less time incorporating other peoples opinions in with your own, you wouldn't need to worry over whether or not someone else is nicking stuff off the web."

I'm not, it just looked almost exactly like something I read a few months back.

"And this business of we don't know if something is right or wrong, or we've at least proven where something can't be found but that doesn't prove it doesn't exist, that kind of thinking really is the stuff that fortune cookie proverbs are made of."

Not really, sometimes I don't know, or I'm not sure is the best answer.

Iamon lyme: I post in a lot of forums on the net, I guess it wasn't memorable enough. :)

JungleBurger: You don't remember? Your post was deleted, so it only looks like I'm responding to nothing.

(V): That bit about aliens that I go on and on about... you don't think I'm serious about that, do you? And yet, there are conspiracy theorists here who apparently think AD and I are the same person. Art and I joke about it, but let's face it, they belong to that group of people who really do get their jollies from speculating about such things.

If you spent less time incorporating other peoples opinions in with your own, you wouldn't need to worry over whether or not someone else is nicking stuff off the web.

And this business of we don't know if something is right or wrong, or we've at least proven where something can't be found but that doesn't prove it doesn't exist, that kind of thinking really is the stuff that fortune cookie proverbs are made of.

Iamon lyme: Isn't it? The web (I just checked to be sure) states...

"Time is one of the seven fundamental physical quantities in the International System of Units."

I do believe in common sense, having an opinion that your answer looked like several answers on the web is allowed isn't it?

"As for Christians, I don't pay much attention to the ones who share your beliefs in what/who God is or isn't."

What do you think my beliefs are on the subject?

As to my existence.. well it's me or you've worse to worry about then hearing aliens.

"do"

Iamon lyme: What has that got to with anything?

(V): You can tell God all about what God is all about when you see Him. As for Christians, I don't pay much attention to the ones who share your beliefs in what/who God is or isn't. I don't speculate much on who or what you are. Just because I see your written word here doesn't mean much to me either.. does it prove that you exist?

(V): Time isn't a physical dimension, and I didn't nic anything off the web. It's just common sense, or is that something else you don't believe in?

.... what about those raised Christian who then through logic work out that God does not exist by looking at the Bible. The literal version that is taught alot in the USA does not make sense. God's character in such a scenario ... human sacrifice, slavery, and genocide being part of an all loving Creator ok to do list. That humans have been picked on out of all the universe (or universes) to be tested then the majority killed off on a whim.

It sounds more like a Douglas Adams plot. Multi dimensional beings have created the Earth to find the question... I hope the Vogon fleet part isn't true.

Iamon lyme: um right.... I didn't say that, I said it in regards to things being wrong.

They've not said they've found it, they've not reached a high sigma value of certainty. At best, they can only say where it isn't. So.. they might be right, they might be wrong. It's undecided...... there is no wrong or right answer that logically can be given in such a circumstance.. it's a maybe.

Most I've heard say they are ok about not finding it. Just it'll mean rewriting particle physics theories, but then again it could be like Newtons laws on gravity.. mostly right.

.. Like that text book answer you nicked off the web on three dimensions.. which is right and wrong. We need time as well to exist as we do, which makes 4 dimensions minimum., space/time being one and the same.

Nope, false alarm. The higgs has not been found. "close to discovering" and "may soon be found" doesn't mean a thing.

I wish credible scientists would stop talking to anyone who is willing to interview them. Do they really want their stories showing up in the same rags that deny aliens are among us?

Maybe it's hard to find the Higgs Boson particle because it moves too fast and furiously..

Wait, I just saw a heading on Google that says higgs boson found... ?

(V): "No, I not going to argue with the word wrong, but I will point out that sometimes... we can't just know if something is wrong. Like the current model of how matter is made up and through the likes of the Higgs particle we can exist."

How does saying "sometimes... we can't just know if something is wrong" disprove what I said about logic?

A lot of theorists have spent years looking for the Higgs particle. If it can be proven to not exist, there are going to be a lot of very unhappy physicists seen jumping out of second story windows.

Bernice: Some of mine were deleted last night, and for good reason. I tried to warn Bawana, but I think he may have had a snootful last night, because I woke up with his hangover.. thanks a lot, AD!!!

Iamon lyme: we 'scooted off" as you put it because every time we post our posts are deleted....or rather mine is.....

Artful Dodger: I haven't done much of a search of past messages here, so I don't know how much has been said about the Fast and Furious fiasco. So far the only people I've seen commenting on it are you and me. If it was the only topic allowed on this board, this place would be like a ghost town. Where did all the free thinking and open minded people scoot off to? They are always around when the subject suits them...

oops, I think I just answered my own question.

Iamon lyme: There must be a third player that we haven't met yet. hmmmmmmmm

The Col: Huge loss. I didn't agree with his ideas about God but he gave clear and compelling answers when explaining his objections. Listening to him was a good way to get a glimpse at what were good arguments for the atheist/agnostic point of view. He always made me think.