........"The worst thing of all is to see politicians coming out playing the "open government" and "transparency" game. I will believe that BS on the day when intelligence agencies and the police stop spying on people."

When we live in Utopia, I'd agree.. but then it wouldn't be necessary in order to keep track of the 'bad guys'.

..........."Politicians have known for decades about what was going on. They feign ignorance only to protect their own hides."

Since Thatcher the way of UK politics changed with the use by Maggie of a PR firm to change the image of the Conservative party & leader. An old reporter said there was a fallout years ago when the press stopped being invited to the parties.

... A free drink here and there kept the relationship sweet.

I have tried to understand why all of a sudden everybody cares about Rupert Murdoch. Politicians have known for decades about what was going on. They feign ignorance only to protect their own hides. All of a sudden everybody focuses on Rupert Murdoch even though they knew for a long time what he was and what his companies were doing. I can find only two explanations for this. First, maybe Rupert Murdoch made powerful enemies. People even more powerful than him could be trying to bring him down. Powerful people can be vindictive, specially when it comes to power struggles. Second, maybe somebody is trying to block the acquisition of BSkyB. A bigger rival company might be trying to acquire BSkyB and they are trying to eliminate Murdoch's bid. In the next few weeks we will see some other company acquire BSkyB. At that point we will see how had a vested interest in ruining Murdoch. Of course, it could be a combination of the two factors. A powerful enemy trying to bring down Murdoch's empire and block his acquisition of BSkyB. Then that enemy rising to the top over Murdoch's empire's ashes.

I wish these hypocrites would stop playing games and just be straight forward and honest. The worst thing of all is to see politicians coming out playing the "open government" and "transparency" game. I will believe that BS on the day when intelligence agencies and the police stop spying on people.

Now an American congressman has stated that the US authorities need to see if any American based Murdoch owned media company has been involved in hacking or blagging!!

NEWS CORP WITHDRAWS BID FOR BSkyB....

"News Corp deputy chairman Chase Carey said the bid had become "too difficult to progress in this climate"."

.... basically News Corp knew that they would be blocked by Parliament.

"..........Mr Cameron said those who sanctioned wrongdoing should have no further role in running a media company in the UK.

He said Lord Justice Leveson, assisted by a panel of senior independent figures, would make recommendations for a better way of regulating the press which "supports their freedom, plurality and independence from government but which also demands the highest ethical and professional standards".

He will also make recommendations about the future conduct of relations between politicians and the press.

Mr Cameron told MPs he would require all ministers and civil servants to record meetings with senior editors and media executives to help make the UK government "one of the most open in the world"."

There's 2 much chest pounding in the USA: Who's wrong, who's right. Hey, meet midway and get the job done!!!! Why not do away social security 4 anyone 49 or younger? But, then the ppl who paid into SS? Why not roll back tax breaks 4 anyone making a Million or more?

But, nooooooooo!

I know it is more complicated.

Just enough is enough!

From the Home Affairs Select Committee today....

Mr Hayman later went on to become a columnist with the News International title The Times but rejected suggestions that he was in the newspaper group's "back pocket".

He told the committee: "Even if I had that motive or other motives that have been suggested, I had no ability to change the direction of that at all."

Mr Hayman also confirmed he had private dinners with representatives of the News of the World during the phone hacking inquiry, but said they had always been "businesslike" and were in the presence of the Met's head of communications.

Former Met assistant commissioner, now working for News International

Obama Zombie??? What about all the Zombies acting like the cold war still exists..

What about all the hate groups that have started up since Obama got into office. Based on he got into office.

Undead??

Artful Dodger:

> If you're an Obama zombie, you can ignore the connection.

Yes, the Obama administration also receives the credit for bringing down Osama Bin Laden. Could it be perhaps that the higher casualties are a reflection of something the Bush administration failed to do in Afghanistan? That is, concentrate on rooting out Al Qaeda rather than build an oil empire in Iraq.

I am not an Obama zombie. If anything, Obama is one more lackey of the Capitalist Empire. However, if Obama is guilty of sending more soldiers to their deaths, then he also deserves credit for giving Al Qaeda a severe blow from which it won't recover for a long time.

For those who don't know, I found a link to Just Foreign Policy:

http://justforeignpolicy.org/

They seem to skirt around the liberal way of thinking, in spite of their claiming to be non-partisan.

The last edition of the News of the World was published on Sunday, with a full-page apology for hacking mobile phones of hundreds of people, including Milly Dowler.

On Thursday, News International chairman James Murdoch, son of Rupert, announced the paper would be closing down in the wake of the latest revelations and in its final editorial the paper said: "Quite simply, we lost our way".

News International said James Murdoch had no knowledge of the e-mails that Harbottle & Lewis were asked to review.

The NoW doubled Sunday's print run to five million, with money from the sales being donated to four charities.

The National Federation of Retail Newsagents said sales figures from its members suggested an average increase in sales at midday of more than 30% compared with the total sales from last Sunday.

Meanwhile, Labour leader Ed Miliband said he would force a Commons vote to delay News Corporation's proposed takeover of the whole of BSkyB, until the investigation into the NoW was completed.

Former Deputy Assistant Commissioner of the Met Police Brian Paddick is among those who will meet political leaders about the hacking this week. He said he did not find the revelations about police payments that surprising.

"Newspapers go to extraordinary lengths to protect their informants, whether they are police officers or not.

"So it shouldn't be any surprise that although they had evidence police officers were being paid for information, that they actually filed that information away four years ago, and it is only because of the pressure over the phone hacking they've actually produced this evidence so that the police can investigate."

Him [...] Cameron must have known - that's the bigger scandal. He had to jump into bed with Murdoch as everyone had, starting with Thatcher in the Seventies . . . Tony Blair . . . [tape is hard to hear here] Maggie openly courted Murdoch, saying, you know, "Please support me." So when Cameron, when it came his turn to go to Murdoch via Rebekah Wade . . . Cameron went horse riding regularly with Rebekah. I know, because as well as doorstepping celebrities, I've also doorstepped my ex-boss by hiding in the bushes, waiting for her to come past with Cameron on a horse . . . before the election to show that - you know - Murdoch was backing Cameron.

And the Republicans and Tea party.....

Him So I asked a copper to get his hands on the phone files, but because it's only a caution it's not there any more. So that's the tip . . . it's a policeman ringing up a tabloid reporter and asking him for ten grand because this girl had been cautioned right at the start of his career. And then I ask another policemen to go and check the records . . . So that's happening regularly. So the police don't particularly want to investigate.
Me But do you think they're going to have to now?
Him I mean - 20 per cent of the Met has taken backhanders from tabloid hacks. So why would they want to open up that can of worms? . . . And what's wrong with that, anyway? It doesn't hurt anyone particularly. I mean, it could hurt someone's career - but isn't that the dance with the devil you have to play?
Me Well, I suppose the fact that they're dragging their feet while investigating a mass of phone-hacking - which is a crime - some people would think is a bit depressing about the police.
Him But then - should it be a crime? I mean, scanning never used to be a crime. Why should it be? You're transmitting your thoughts and your voice over the airwaves. How can you not expect someone to just stick up an aerial and listen in?
Me So if someone was on a landline and you had a way of tapping in . . .
Him Much harder to do.
Me But if you could, would you think that was illegal? Do you think that should be illegal?
Him I'd have to say quite possibly, yeah. I'd say that should be illegal.
Me But a mobile phone - a digital phone . . . you'd say it'd be all right to tap that?
Him I'm not sure about that. So we went from a point where anyone could listen in to anything. Like you, me, journalists could listen in to corrupt politicians, and this is why we have a reasonably fair society and a not particularly corrupt or criminal prime minister, whereas other countries have Gaddafi. Do you think it's right the only person with a decent digital scanner these days is the government? Whereas 20 years ago we all had a go? Are you comfortable that the only people who can listen in to you now are - is it MI5 or MI6?
Me I'd rather no one listened in, to be honest. And I might not be alone there. You probably wouldn't want people listening to your conversations.
Him I'm not interesting enough for anyone to want to listen in.


From.....

http://www.newstatesman.com/newspapers/2011/04/phone-yeah-cameron-murdoch

In light of the NoW scandal we have to wonder how safe we are from being spied upon. Every day the technology gets better and better, and anyone can buy it online. For example:

http://spyworld.com/
http://www.mscspytek.com/
http://www.4hiddenspycameras.com/

There are literally hundreds of websites advertising equipment for spying on others. What we see in online retail outlets is only the tip of the iceberg. Professionals such as law enforcement, intelligence agencies and private investigators have at their disposal even more sophisticated equipment.

What is more alarming is the electronic data trail that we all leave behind. For example:

- Medical and dental records: doctors record in computer systems every medical procedure, diagnostic procedure or treatment course that we take.
- Retail and service records: retailers and service providers record every product or service that we purchase.
- Credit and financial data: banks, financial insitutions and credit reproting agencies have detailed records of every cent we have borrowed, spend or used in some way. They know every financial detail about us, good or bad.
- Electronic mail: e-mail servers are routinely backed up and our messages are recorded and in many cases made available legally or illegally to others.
- Telephones: land and cellular telephone companies have records of every telephone call we make, including numbers, who owns the number, times of day, locations, etc. This also includes text messages, photographs, video or any other form of data sent through telephone systems.
- Any other form of electronic data that can be stored in a computer.

There are very few laws to protect individuals. At the present laws open the data systems to law enforcement and intelligence agencies in search for terrorists and criminals. However, there is nothing to stop governments from using all of these means of communication for curtailing individual freedom and imposing a totalitarian system.

The 9-11 tragedy was used to pass legislation that Americans would never even have dreamed of. The Patriot Act gives broad powers to the government, and there is no guarantee that another terrorist attack won't cause a panic that will move the government into an even more authoritarian direction.

At the same time, private companies own and operate most of the computer systems where all the electronic data is stored. What guarantee is there that those companies will not abuse all that data?

Passing laws to protect individuals might reassure the public a little, but in reality the law is only an abstract thing. People throw the law out of the window when politically or economically convenient. Murder is illegal, but that does not stop murderers from killing people. Likewise, abusing electronic data might be illegal, but that is no guarantee that somebody (whether in the government or a private company) will not abuse the data. NoW is a sign of that. All it takes is a change in the political climate and Big Brother will be looking at everything that we do electronically. It feels like we are sitting on a ticking time bomb. It is not a matter of whether the data will be abused, but rather a matter of when. In the meantime, we continue in our ignorant bliss, oblivious to the danger that this posses to individual freedom and our right to dissent.

Our politicians act all "outraged" when a scandal like the NoW affair happens. Yet we would be very naive to think that they were unaware of what was going on. Politicians in power are themselves playing this game, and now that NoW is caught they pretend to do something or to care.

Übergeek 바둑이: No. It's because of how low they went. Hacking politicians and celebs.. they live and die in the press to a certain degree.

But hacking phones of Dead soldiers families, 7/7 and those of girls who whose murders were under investigation is a step to far.

"Isn't eavesdropping on people what police and intelligence agencies have been doing for the last 200 years?"

Yes. Unfortunately we have people that are actively engaged in anti-social activities such as murder and war.

"The reality is that the media, the police, intelligence agencies and politicians play a game that is well integrated...."

I'm not so sure on that. They have been fouling up alot and getting noticed.

The NoW affair is nothing new. People react so surprised. Isn't eavesdropping on people what police and intelligence agencies have been doing for the last 200 years? People should look at the story of French policeman Vidoq and the birth of modern policework, spying and corruption. The Roman Praetorian Guard did it too, and we are talking over 2000 years ago.

The only reason why people are scandalized is because it is a private company instead of "good and decent" people like the CIA and MI5. I wonder how much cell phone companies eavesdrop on people, as do Internet companies. People very quickly forget that companies like Google have for years been storing and data mining e-mail and other forms of communication, and the privacy policies behind Internet companies remain murky and ambiguous.

The reason why NoW is under pressure is because they used the eavesdropping for profit. Not that intelligence agencies don't engage in industrial espionage that will later end up in the hands of private companies for profit.

Where NoW really hits a low point is when it eavesdropped on vicitims of crime and terrorism. But then, police and intelligence agencies do that too, except not for profit. Well, except when paid up by somebody to disclose the information (like NoW did). Then if politicians (like a minister, for example) put pressure on the police or intelligence agencies to spy on people, isn't winning an election a form of profit too? Watergate comes to mind here.

The reality is that the media, the police, intelligence agencies and politicians play a game that is well integrated to ensure that money and political power fall in the right place. It is a scandal and a crime only when they get caught. Then there is "plausible deniability". "We were so busy doing something else that we never noticed". The public thinks that they are getting the news and the truth, when in reality they are getting sensationalism, propaganda and indoctrination. Newspaper and TV editors are central to the scheme. It is a vice that our governments learned during the Cold War when propaganda was central to the general anticommunist indoctrination of the population. Now the media and politicians merely use it for profit.

Justaminute: If he does. That now is not a done deal. It is yet to be seen how deep and how far the responsibility will have to go. .... ie how many heads will roll. Rebekah Brooks has offered to commit 'seppuku' (resign) but that has been refused at the moment. It is said she will be sacrificed if James Murdoch comes up as having his hands dirty in this affair.

Pedro Martínez:
I wouldn’t question Murdoch’s business skills over the last 30 years.

He kills a name that is a liability, reopens it under a new name and wins control of BskyB the digital broadcaster. If it comes off it has been another good day at the office for Mr Murdoch.

(V): Yup, well done, Murdoch… that's what I call great business skills…

The News International Boss (owns Fox News)

Staff at the News of the World have reacted with shock to news that it will be closed after this Sunday's edition.

The 168-year-old tabloid is accused of hacking into phones of crime victims, celebrities and politicians. Police have identified 4,000 possible targets. The Guardian reports that Andy Coulson, formerly David Cameron's director of communications and a former NoW editor, will be arrested later.

It says Mr Coulson will be arrested on suspicion that he knew about, or had direct involvement in, the hacking of mobile phones during his time as editor, between 2003 and 2007. He has insisted he knew nothing about the practice.

Staff said they were stunned after News International chairman James Murdoch announced on Thursday the NoW would shut, after days of increasingly damaging allegations. The paper's editor Colin Myler said the news was "the saddest day of my professional career". Mr Wooding, who joined the NoW 18 months ago, said the paper was "fantastic" and "decent, hard-working, distinguished journalists were all carrying the can for the sins of a previous regime".

But Labour MP Chris Bryant, who believes his phone was hacked, said the decision to close was "a really cynical move". He told the BBC: "What the Murdochs have been doing in the last few weeks is chucking people over the side in a desperate attempt to keep the ship afloat.

"But it's really unfair that [it is] the staff at the newspaper who are losing their jobs rather than the people at the top...if Rebekah Brooks had a single shred of decency in her, if only because Milly Dowler's phone was hacked on her watch, she should resign."

In a statement made to staff, Mr Murdoch said the good things the paper did "have been sullied by behaviour that was wrong - indeed, if recent allegations are true, it was inhuman and has no place in our company". "The News of the World is in the business of holding others to account. But it failed when it came to itself."

The suspicion is that dumping the paper is an attempt to save Rupert MurDoch's buying of BskyB. That the Sun (sister paper) is to start a Sunday edition......!!

The police have been covering up their supplying of NoW with information for cash, and indeed trying to cover the depth of the amount they knew about the phone hacking.

Politicians it seems have been bullied by Rupert Murdoch, by threatening to 'diss' such politicians. eg...
.............."you scratch my back and I won't use my papers to print bad stories about you before the election."

Artful Dodger:

> Americans consume petroleum products at a rate of three-and-a-half gallons of oil and more than 250 cubic feet of natural gas per day each! But, as shown here petroleum is not just used for fuel.

Now we have an excuse to continue being dependent and to continue polluting.

Yes, 90% of the consumer crap we buy is made of oil in some way or another. So we should just keep consuming and wasting because pollution (like global warming) is fictitious.

Then many countries don't want to give their oil cheaply, or give any at all. Those "enemies" of our high standard of living should be forcibly removed and replaced with puppet dictators that will give us whatever we want. A dictator is "evil" when that dictator refuses to give away commodities to the empire cheaply. Good examples are Iran, Lybia and Venezuela. If a dictator does what the western empires want, that dictator is undesirable, but we can "work" with him. Good examples are Egypt, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, etc.

Rebels are "pro democracy" when they are willing to set up governments that give away commodities cheaply in exchange for money or weapons. The rebels in Lybia are a good example. They hadn't even organized into a proper government, but the tankers were there even before the fighting really started. Rebels are terrorists when they refuse to give commodities cheaply or do business in a way that benefits the empire's monopolies. A good example is the Taliban which refused to let Unocal (now owned by Chevron) build a pipleine through Afghanistan and Pakistan.

In the meantime, the empire would rather continue the status quo: promoting war and dependance. Promoting alternative energy sources or educating the public to stop wasteful consumption are convenient only when the empire wants a certain politiician to be elected by the already apatehtic and poorly educated masses.

Artful Dodger:

> Let's see...I find excuses for a business that is legitimate and legal, you find excuses for terrorists that blow up innocent women and children and use rape as a weapon.

Yes, war is a legitimate and legal business, specially when it is used to take forcibly commodities that belong to another country. Yes, oil is legitimate and legal. But then, war planes drop chocolate bars and not 2000-pound bombs. Then Lybia has no commodities anybody cares about, except oil

I don't see you defending the actions of western countries with respect to Bahrain. I wonder if the despotic king there plays into your defense of Nato axis imperialism. But then, Bahrain lends its territory for military bases for the UK and the US. I don't see you saying anything about that government putting in prison doctors and nurses who treated injured protesters, or the over 250 people who were made to "disappear".

It is all legitimate business in Bahrain. After all, besides allowing military bases in their country, they provide all the financial services for the oil industry in the Persian Gulf. I wonder if western banks and the Nato axis would be happy with regime change there. So what if it is a brutal dictatorship? It is all "legitimate and legal".

In the meantime, why is it that the Nato axis refuses to disclose how many civilians their planes have killed in Tripoli?

It is just like Iraq. Like Generalissimo Tommy Franks said "We don't do body counts".

Yes, Gaddafi is a brutal dictator. He should go. But then so should all the pro-western puppet dictators propped up by western intelligence agencies. Dictatorship is legitimate and legal, if it does what the empire wants.

... Advertisers are already cancelling contracts with the Rupert Murdoch owned paper, just like with Glenn Beck.

David Cameron has promised to set up a public inquiry into phone hacking at the News of the World.

The UK prime minister said claims that the voicemail of murdered schoolgirl Milly Dowler had been hacked, with some messages deleted, were "disgusting".

But he told MPs an inquiry could not take place until police investigations were concluded.....

Rupert Murdoch, chairman and chief executive of News Corporation, the parent company of the News of the World, said allegations that staff had hacked phones and paid police were "deplorable and unacceptable".

He added that he was "committed to addressing these issues fully".

It is claimed that 13-year-old Milly Dowler's voicemail was hacked by an investigator working for the News of the World after she disappeared near her home in Surrey in 2002 .

This follows allegations that dozens of politicians and celebrities, including actor Hugh Grant and former Deputy Prime Minister Lord Prescott, were also targeted.

***************************

"said allegations that staff had hacked phones and paid police were "deplorable and unacceptable".

But they have already paid out to various celebs, etc. People working for the NOTW paper found guilty and jailed. But as much, the attitude of the public over celebs and politicians phones being hacked wasn't big.


............... But to hack the phone of a missing child and then delete messages listened to in order to hide the hacking, leading to the parents of the child to believe she was still alive and thus hinder a countrywide search for the girl is....

...."disgusting".

Artful Dodger: There was by all accounts an agreement with Stalin by FDR (and Churchill) over how much territory the Soviet Union would be able to keep at the end of WWII.

See the Yalta Conference.

Then there is .... Bhopal: the Union Carbide gas leak.

http://www.lenntech.com/environmental-disasters.htm

The cause of the accident has been researched after the disaster. Apparently water ended up in MIC storage tanks, causing an exothermal reaction that released an amount of poisonous gas large enough to open the safety valves. Normally scrubbers would intercept escaping gas, but these were temporarily out of order for repair.
Research showed that factory personnel neglected a number of safety procedures. There were no valves to prevent water from entering the storage tanks. The cooling installation of the tanks and the flaring installation that might have flared the gas that was released were out of order (fig. 1).
Safety was very low in this factory of Union Carbide, compared to its other locations. The safety procedures were neglected because of budget cuts......

...In 2001 Dow Chemical Company took control of Union Carbide. These take-overs led to a discussion on responsibility for cleaning up the tons of poisonous waste that are still present in the environment consequential to the 1984 disaster. Environmental activists are trying to convince Dow Chemical Company to clean up this potential minefield of toxic chemicals. These could cause nervous system failure, liver and kidney disease and possibly cancer for many years to come.
Today, the location is still polluted with thousands of tons of toxic chemicals, such as hexachlorobenzene and mercury. These chemicals are stored in open barrels. Rainfall causes rinsing out of pollution to local drinking water sources. According to BBC research, some wells even contain up to 500 times the legal limit of these toxins. Local residents still suffer from a number of diseases, which appear to be very uncommon among people that do not live in the disaster area.

*******************

Nice.

Tuesday: .... you can tell by his posts he doesn't

Artful Dodger: Dan... I wasn't referring to oil companies as such, but of the many companies that have and still (such as BP) knowingly crap on others just to notch up a few more points on the stock market.

Like the companies today who are exporting illegally e-waste to India, despite signing 'promises' that they would dispose of it at home. Like the Health companies in America refusing to pay up for medical care... and their use of people paid on commission to deny procedures that can cure a person or stop them dying.

You could read this....
http://libcom.org/library/allied-multinationals-supply-nazi-germany-world-war-2

You might also wanna check out Dow Chemicals and the Monsanto Corporation. But... that is mixed up with the Federal government and the use of Agent Orange. What in hindsight was chemical warfare... .... ...

Aint us Brits supposed to be on the same side as the Americans? You would not think so from this board

Artful Dodger: Even if they knowingly cause the death, mutilation, mutation and pollution of an area or people.. including innocent women and children.

You know they do you know.

I'd thought being "legitimate and legal" would make that more disgusting.

Tuesday: That is because they only tell you what they want you to know.
For eg we were taught at school that when the French stormed the Bastille there were lots of political prisoners released but in fact that was not true. The truce was only a handful of people were actually imprisoned in the Bastille at the time.
Its the same with the Patriot and even with BraveHeart not everything in those films are is true but make for better viewing figures and people would rather believe those versions.

Artful Dodger:

> They got beat by a bunch of farmers.

> We saved them in WWI and WWII.

Americans keep telling themselves that they saved the world from the Nazis. This is the myth they have repeated to themselves since the end of WW II.

But history shows that up until 1942 the US was doing business with the Nazis. The US did not decide to stop doing business with the Nazis until Pearl Harbor was attacked and until it was clear that the Nazis had lost the battle on the eastern front with the Soviet Union. The Traidng with the Enemy Act was not passed until 1942, and those Americans who collaobrated with the Nazis are well known.

The true saviors were the Soviets who lost 23 million people in order to give Hitler a crushing defeat. So bad was Hitler defeated by the Soviets that he had little left to defend the western front. The Soviets marched across Europe virtually unopposed. If the US had not entered the war, the Soviet Union would have completely taken over Germany and France under the Vichy government.

Well, Americans give no credit to the Soviet Union or to Nikita Kruschev, probably the best military leader of the 20th century. That is a legacy of the Cold War. The US and Western Europe downplayed the Soviet contribution to the war out of fear that people might see the Soviet Union as the ones who defeated Hitler.

Artful Dodger:

> leave it to you to find excuses for a known terrorist

Leave it to you to find excuses for an oil empire.

Artful Dodger: Please... to those in Europe that was 1914-1918 rather than 1917-1918. Other factors such as the development of the tank had just as much importance. Imho if you Americans hadn't entered in, the allies would have won but just later.

As for WWII.. If the UK had fallen, would America been able to fight. The tech you and the Russians nicked would still have been in German hands as possibly the UK's nuclear boffins.

You saved yourselves.

rod03801: We didn't lose them.

We formed a Commonwealth that has 54 member states. Isn't that more states than the USA?

(V): And one of many you lost

Iamon lyme: Nahhhhhhh. It was only one of many a country we ruled.

(V): lol Annoying, isn't it?

Up the British... Down with the Colonials.

We'd won if it were not for the French!!