...getting away from the topic a bit?

Artful Dodger: Historically Jesus did not (why the Jewish do not recognise him as Messiah) fulfil all what was prophesied he would. In fact according to the Jewish historians another bloke came up as fulfilling the Messiah role better.. at least for the Jews.

.. The intepretation that many Christians hold is it is God's plan (who Jesus is the Son of and must obey the word of God.. him being the Father) to kill and destroy most humans on this planet (no accounting for other planets it must be said) ..

Revelation 21
5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

.................. Rather violent that of our God isn't it?

http://www.armyofgod.com/


... Rather violent are they not?

Artful Dodger: Hmmm that many of the passages you'll probably find on your sites promoting hate of Muslims and the Koran will not quote the history of the writings. That at the time of Mohammed and the formation of the Islamic faith they were fighting for their lives yet.. Allah saw it wise to promote something akin to the Geneva Convention over a thousand years before we Christians did.

Mousetrap: Went into a local shop and they were watching the match on the laptop. When they won!!!!

Artful Dodger:

I know that my last post sounds harsh, but I am trying to get a point across. Book burning of any kind is wrong. A person could burn a Bible, a Koran, etc. It is nothing more than ignorance and fear.

>> " But then I think Jesus did not exist, and if he existed, he was a false prophet too ..."

> Utterly false. Jesus DID exist. It's an historical fact.

My point is, calling Mohammad a false prophet might be OK is you don't believe in his teachings, but to somebody who does it is rather insulting. It is like saying that Jesus was a false prophet and did not exist. My sentence questions Christian faith at its core. For most Christians the existence of Jesus is a given and central to their faith. It is immaterial that there is no historical proof of the existence of Jesus outside the Bible (as an aside, there is no historicity to the existence of Jesus and there are no confirmed literary descriptions of Jesus outside the Bible). It is faith that makes Jesus real in the eyes of a Christian believer. Likewise, it is faith that makes Mohammad a prophet in the eyes of Moslems.

> Bibles are burned everyday somewhere. Flag burning bothers me more but I don't take to the street for it.

The answer is that burning the Koran was a symbolic act, just like burning a flag is. In reality burning the Koran makes no damage to Islam, just a burning the flag makes no damage to the country it represents. It is symbolic act of disapproval, anger, defiance, and in some cases even hatred.

> Even atheists are hypocrites.

Hypocrysy is EVERYWHERE. A catholic priest will go and preach on a Sunday to his congregation, then he will go and abuse a child. An evangelical pastor will preach to his congregation, then he will ask them for money and use that wealth to maintain his mistresses. An imam will preach of moslem piety, then send young men and women to die in a suicide attack. A politician will talk of freedom and democracy, then send troops to kill thousands in another country. A communist will talk of equality and the rights of the working class, then arrest his opponents and send them to prison. Humanity is eternally caught in its contradictions and its hypocrysy. That hypocrysy will go from petty, every day acts, to the biggest and most horrendous crimes.

> The actions of ONE man do not reflect on an entire group.

That is the reason why any religion survives. If we were to judge Christianity for the actions of those who do wrong, then Cristianity would fail to pass the test. Chirstianity has been mired in inquisitions, witch hunts, religious wars, hatred, intolerance, etc. People like Terry Jones are passing judgement on Islam based on the actions of what in essence is a very small minority of fanatical terrorists. It would be like passing judgement on Christianity based on the actions of the Borgias or the Holy Inquisition. It would be like passing judgement on all Marxists based on the actions of Joseph Stalin. Or like saying that the criminal jailers in Abu Graib represent ALL the American people. Those generalizations are destructive, and obscure the good things that people have done irrespective of religion or ideology. We insist on passing absolute judgements of good and evil, and we are unbale to acknowledge that there is good in Christianity, as there is good in Islam, Judaism, Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, etc.

> If that is your standard, then you have to accept the fact that you too are a hypocrite.

Nobody is immune from hypocrysy, and I am the first to admit my own failings. I know that in some ways I am good, and in others I am wrong. I am not one to quote the Bible much, but "let he who is free from sin cast the first stone."

In the eyes of the fanatic, his/her actions are ALWAYS right. The hypocrite sees himself as always in the right, and when he doesn't, he doesn't care about the consequences of his actions. When caught doing something bad, the hypocryte will blame somebody else, or blame the circumstances around him. When there is nobody to blame but himself, he will fall down on his knees and beg for forgiveness. He will even try to be sincere in his repentance, but deep inside he will callously ignore that what he did was wrong. He will make excuses and find religious or ideological justifications for his actions, and when that fails, he will call to higher moral principles and impose his views in a rigid, fanatical way. He will exploit fear to promote hatred, and then use that hatred and fear to further his own ambitions and greed. When asked to justify himself, his rethoric will fall on self-righteous ideology and the higher principles that everyone aspires to or admires. Those who believe in him will follow him blindly, because following blindly is easier than accepting that they must use critical thinking and avoid being duped by a fanatical demagogue.

(V): LOL! Funny you should say that. I was down Stoke and they were walking round the block with flag cheering!

Czuch: So if you crashed into my car due to you being on the phone and not paying attention to the road I wouldn't be after claiming against the insurance??

.... I wouldn't be after your details?

(V): Nobody can say my actions caused you to do something, and it is not my responsibility what you do... these guys could have chosen not to riot if I do burn the Koran and they can choose to riot if I dont burn the Koran... its their ultimate choice, and they chose to excuse their actions on the fact that some guy burned a Koran, and their actions have no excuse!

Czuch: .. actually you changed the point to this. I recon a certain Hurricane was more as such a trying circumstance.

9/11 was just a wake call to the matter of the USA leaving loose cannons around.

(V): On attention grabbing.. granted. Yet that only logically led to Afghanistan.. he seemed to lose focus after that!!

Again, off the point of the topic. The point was that he was praising Obama and these others in the face of trying circumstances, and left out Bush and 9/11... was 9/11 not enough of a trying circumstance to be mentioned?

Artful Dodger:

> They burn our flag. If American't retaliated and killed a bunch of Muslims, I doubt you'd post something blaming the Muslims.

I think that terrorists are the second biggest idiots in the world. The only ones more stupid than them are satanists. If somebody burns the American flag, what is the point? It changes and achieves nothing.

> The pastor, idiot that he is, has every right to burn the Koran.

Then anyone has the right to burn anything. If somebody wants to burn the American flag, then they have a right to do so according to that logic. But then, burning books is the recourse of the ignorant and the fearful, just like flag burning is.

> He could be ignored. But the radical idiot Muslims think less of innocent lives than they do some made up book by some false prophet. They are nuttier than that pastor every was or will be.

I know a lot of good Christians who thinks it is OK to send war planes and send 400,000 Iraqis to their deaths. But then I think Jesus did not exist, and if he existed, he was a false prophet too, because the actions of Christians show that the Bible is wrong and made up of a bunch of self-righteous lies.

In fact, maybe I should just host my own Bible burning trial. I will put the Bible on trial, and hold it guilty of having caused a hell of a lot of religious wars, not just between Christians and Moslems, but also between Catholics and protestants. Then having found it guilty of war crimes, i will incinerate the Bible with kerosene. Then when Christians get mad and protest I will say: Why are you angry? The book was written by a false prophet, or even worse, false god.

If I went downtown here and burned a Bible in our central square, I am convinced I would be dead within minutes, because when it comes down to it, there are Christians who are fanatics too and who act out of fear and ignorance, and who will justify killing in the name of higher principles.

As an atheist, all I see are religious hypocrites. People who claim higher moral principles, but who conveniently put them away for the sake of money and power. That pastor burned the Koran, not to prove that he is a good christian, but for the notoriety he would gain. He did not care if people got angry or died because of his actions. He got his 15 minutes of fame, and 12 people are dead because of it.

Czuch: Yes I do know what the word means. It's like with the Orange loyalists from NI... when they did their marches they knew they would cause and get a reaction. They knew innocent lives by their actions would be at risk or lost.

But they didn't care.

Do you understand care?

Czuch:

> What is it with liberals who just wont hold anyone accountable for their own personal actions?

The point is this. He had been asked not to burn the Koran because he would put other people at risk if he did so.

This reminds me of the Wikileaks man. He is accused of putting secret services people at risk for releasing those documents. Now he is crucified in the media and faces trials and prosecution of all sorts. So far nobody has died because of Wikileaks.

But this pastor was specifically told that if he burned the Koran it would undermine all the efforts in the Middle East. He was personally requested not to do it by Robert Gates. He went ahead and did it knowing fully well what would happen.

Maybe we can call him a provocateur. But his provocation did have lethal consequences. That is what I am trying to get at. It is like instigating somebody to violence. Of course the insurgents who infiltrated the protest are to blame for the killings, but the pastor should at least accept that he is responsible for trigerring that violence when there was really no need to do so.

(V): But why burn the Koran knowing that it will cause riots?

There you go again.... do you know what the word 'cause' means? Nothing I do will cause a riot... only the people who actually riot 'cause' the riot themselves. We are each solely responsible for our actions. Its called personal responsibility, and liberals love to avoid it and to place false blame to make sure everyone feels so good about themselves.... 'its not your fault, it was that preacher that caused you to riot'!

Czuch: On attention grabbing.. granted. Yet that only logically led to Afghanistan.. he seemed to lose focus after that!!

Artful Dodger: No... you are. If it was so as you say.. why isn't the whole of the Muslim world at a state of war with the rest of us?

It seems on most Muslim minds recently was the outcome of the cricket.

(V): 9/11 was not a military or economic disaster, or a war. It is not the same.

It is the same in the sense that it is something that placed a serious burden and focus of attention on the President.

Artful Dodger: Utter rubbish. The Koran forbids suicide on pain of ending up in Hell. It only states that regarding a war or battle their are rules of combat.. and killing innocents is not allowed. I remember going over this with you and some other people years ago.

As mentioned.. The army of God and other violent pro life groups have killed, maimed, kidnapped, arson and used fake anthrax letters and other stuff all in the name of God.

... perversion, just like the Witch hunters of Christian past and a certain passage to do with getting a woman preggo whilst not in wedlock!

Czuch: After the cancelling of the previous burning knowing the reaction..... I'd call him more than an idiot. Yes what the rioters did was wrong and the killing was their doing. But why burn the Koran knowing that it will cause riots? As a 'man of God', I would thought he would have had some sense.


"yet he didnt mention anything about Bush enduring 9/11, why would he intentionally leave that one out?"


9/11 was not a military or economic disaster, or a war. It is not the same.

(V): What has 9/11 got to do with Kuwait? Apart from being an excuse for the Americans to clean away their previous lackey Saddam and get a good oil supply.

Nice to see you havent lost your ability to confuse yourself..... The point had nothing to do with 9/11 and Kuwait.... it was simply that he mentioned what other presidents had to endure, yet he didnt mention anything about Bush enduring 9/11, why would he intentionally leave that one out?

(V): He knew the reaction that the burning of the Koran would produce.

So what?? Does that absolve them of their own actions?? Thats the point.... we are each responsible for our own actions. He is his own idiot for burning it, you could blame someone else for inflaming him couldnt you?

Artful Dodger: You must live in a strange place for that to be true!!

Oh btw... Ever hear of the Army of God?

One of those wacko pro life groups that think wacking people is justified.

.. ie anyone can distort a religion.

Artful Dodger: Compared to whom.. The pastor?

"some made up book by some false prophet." .. some Christian?

Artful Dodger: I thought you were over Palin?

Artful Dodger: So.. you are saying you have emotions and react to people dissing your idols?? Dan... I thought that was crazy talk!!

Artful Dodger: Yes... many many cases over the last 1400 years odd since Muslims have been on the scene.

Artful Dodger: Did the Republicans announce Palin was running for VP on April 1st?

Czuch: He knew the reaction that the burning of the Koran would produce. Their would be a similar reaction amongst zealot Christians if some Muslims held a trial for the Bible and then judged it guilty and burnt it.... .. yet there have been attacks on some Mosque's here based on some other Muslims being bad men.

Czuch: What has 9/11 got to do with Kuwait? Apart from being an excuse for the Americans to clean away their previous lackey Saddam and get a good oil supply.

Übergeek 바둑이: he will sleep soundly knowing that his actions caused the deaths of 8 people.

Really?? He pulled the trigger? What is it with liberals who just wont hold anyone accountable for their own personal actions?

So when someone in Afghanistan burns an American flag, it is their fault that I kill some innocent Afghan over here??

(V): Doesnt even mention that Bush had 9/11.... makes me want to puke the media hypocrisy!

Religious zealot Terry Jones wanted to burn the Koran to commemorate the 9-11 attack. After much criticism and even Robert Gates talking ot the man, he backed down.

But then this true Christian decided to burn the Koran after all. He and his zealot church buddies decided to put the Koran on trial and burn it.

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/03/terry_jones_finally_got_that_k.html

Here is an excerpt of the article:

"Sunday's event was presented as a trial of the book in which the Koran was found "guilty" and "executed."

The jury deliberated for about eight minutes. The book, which had been soaking for an hour in kerosene, was put in a metal tray in the center of the church, and Sapp started the fire with a barbecue lighter."

Now, there is a really fair trial, with the accused soaking in kerosene for one hour before the jury passed its veredict.

"Notably, nobody really cared this time. Only 30 people were in attendance, and the media didn't even notice until today."

The reporter who wrote that was unaware that people in other countries do pay attention. As a result of this pointless book burning, a protest erupted in Afghanistan. The protest started peaceful and turned violent when the protesters approached a UN compound and armed guards tried to stop them. The protesters quickly took the weapons from the guards and killed 8 UN workers inside.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110401/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan_4

Way to go Pastor Terry Jones. You are a real Christian hero. I suppose "We told you so" will mean nothing to him and he will sleep soundly knowing that his actions caused the deaths of 8 people.

“Yes, Lincoln had the Civil War. FDR faced the Great Depression, Nazi Germany, Pearl Harbor. But look at the daunting set of challenges President Obama faces today: wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and now Libya; a runaway deficit, unemployment at record levels, a health care reform bill that special interests are trying to destroy — all of that, plus the irrational hatred of the bigots in the Tea Party who want nothing more than to see him fail. All of that has arrived at, at the Oval Office, at the same time. He deserves a Nobel Prize just for showing up each day.”
— Tom Brokaw on NBC’s Today, April 1

""....it's absolutely laughable. i watch MSNBC every now again for entertainment purposes... a majority of their talking heads actually support obama's actions in libya. unbelievable. now on the other side, most talking heads at fox of course condemn obama's actions. it just shows are easy this is to spin to match one's political agenda.""

Czuch: If you are referring to Bush I then yes.. funny old world. After the war to free Kuwait the Iraqi's were encouraged to rebel with the understanding they would get support when they did. They didn't get the support.

So not exactly the same.

(V): Funny how times have changed.... if it was Bush and not Obama, seriously???

Übergeek 바둑이: "If Libya had no oil, would any of this be happening?"
of course not.

Übergeek 바둑이: Quite honestly ... I don't think they can stop at least some changes. It might be another Solidarity

.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_%28Polish_trade_union%29 ..... type movement. Some deaths are inevitable.. But it worked.

"If Libya had no oil, would any of this be happening? Would any of our governments care?"

Not as much quite probably. ... .. but use citizens would. And we still as humans 'aid'.

(V):

The kings of Bahrain figured that the protesters were dangerous to his regime, so he ordered the army to send in anti-riot police. They shot at the demonstrators, threw tear gas at them and detained over 250, 44 of which have disappeared. Then Joe Biden comes out and says that talks is the way to go. What about providing logistical support to those protesters? Are we leaving them to the wolves, like you said we did in Iraq?

> Unfortunately we have 'Iraq', North Korea amongst others which have drained Trillions of $ and tied up a fair proportion of troops.

So we can spare money and planes for Libya. We can send weapons to the rebels (in case anyone noticed, those rebels are armed to the teeth. I wonder who supplied the weapons.)

I think we are just making excuses for our double standard. Bahrain is OK because they run big banking consortiums and sell cheap oil. Libya is not, because Gaddafi nationalized the oil industry. I don't buy the pro-democracy ideology. I suppose it is acceptable to let Bahrain oppress its population because they are mostly Shia muslims. Libya is a different story. We do oil deals with Gaddafi when it is politically and economically convenient, and when it is convenient we bomb him too. Maybe I am the only who sees oil as the main motivation in all of this. If Libya had no oil, would any of this be happening? Would any of our governments care?

Übergeek 바둑이: What guarantee is there he will be replaced by another dictator? It might be that at least with this 'battle' the peoples revolt might actually work!! It would be worse if the NATO forces left the rebels to one like Ghaddafi? Do you remember the Iraqi uprising that was encouraged by the west and then let down in terms of logistical support? Saddam massacred the rebels.

I know Saudi Arabia is going through it's revolution and people are and will be killed, detained, etc... Unfortunately we have 'Iraq', North Korea amongst others which have drained Trillions of $ and tied up a fair proportion of troops.

I don't see no magic wand suddenly ending those commitments.

As one friend once said.. it's like peeling an onion with a strawberry at the middle.

Übergeek 바둑이: as always.. the human nature 's dark side prevails.. double standards been happening that way forever.

(V):

To be replaced by whom? An oil company executive like Hamid Karzai in Afghanistan? Or by a bank embezzler like Ahmad Chalabi in Iraq? What guarantee is there that he will not be replaced by a corrupt puppet or another dictator?

Like I said before, I don't see our western power doing ANYTHING to change Saudi Arabia. According to the opposition inBahrain 250 have been detained and 44 are missing following the protests there:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110328/wl_nm/us_bahrain_arrests_1

"Earlier this month, Bahrain's Sunni rulers, the al-Khalifa family, imposed martial law and called in troops from fellow Sunni-ruled Gulf neighbors, including top oil exporter Saudi Arabia, to quell weeks of unrest during pro-democracy protest led by mostly Shi'ite demonstrators."

Will they bomb that country too? I doubt it because they sell cheap oil the way our western empires want. That is the only difference. It is all about oil. Anything else is nothing but empty ideological excuses. Democracy counts only when it gives western monopolies a business advantage.

Joe Biden comes and urges the Bahrain monarchy to hold talks with the opposition.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110327/pl_afp/bahrainpoliticsunrestus_20110327165457

So the world's hypocrites say "lets hold talks in Bahrain, and let's bomb Lybia". Nice double standard.

Übergeek 바둑이: Would you rather have Gaddafi's progrom continue? Yes the rebels have said oil will flow and of course us in the west will get the oil.... but in the end result will be one less dictator and murderer in power.

The Col:

> I'll bet Gadhafi is shak'n now

How heroic of our Canadian military to be lackeys for Nato. I am sure they really care about civilians, specially when Qatar just announced that they are ready to start shipping oil from East Lybia. I am really, really sure western oil companies will make no money once Gaddafi leaves power. And I am sure that all the oil money will really go to help poor Lybians, rather than fatten the pockets of oil company executives. Well, it is western style democracy, which means do whatever makes the monopolies rich.

The Col: It would seem so. BBC news is reporting that "..... Col Muammar Gaddafi is seeking to convince Western powers to accept a plan which would see him cede powers to his son, Saif al-Islam, for a transitional period of two to three years in return for a ceasefire. A Libyan official the pan-Arab newspaper that Saif al-Islam Gaddafi had discussed the proposal with US, British and Italian diplomats. He is said to have also wanted assurances that the Gaddafi family would not face prosecution...."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/9438022.stm

I'll bet Gadhafi is shak'n now

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Canadian+head+NATO+mission+Libya/4503678/story.html

The Col: ... Aye, just like everyone pays towards the funding of the military..

.. yet how many of us actually declare war on another country outside our respective governments declarations?

(V): I'm pretty sure we all pay school taxes, regardless of having children