(V):<b> Walmart is rebuilding their store roofs to put solar power on them to operate their stores and sell the excess back to the power companies.

Some people are buying Chevy Volts and putting solar panels on their roofs to recharge them and they can sell the excess to the power companies except in California. They have a law against selling excess energy to power companies.

(V): True but we are in the process of creating a constitutional amendment to end corporate personhood as well as stop insider trading with congress and the supreme court.

These career politicians have all become pigs feeding at the troth.

The supreme court needs to be put under our conflict of interest laws.

(V): lol, yes Newt is all for slave labor.
Newt wants to go to the moon to, maybe we can send him there without an environment suit.

Newt Gingrich wants child labour brought back!!

WTH

Jack: Like free solar powered electric car recharging points.

"Also not listening to corporate lobby groups that support nothing but propaganda on climate change for their own personal profits."

unlikely.. too many politicians rely on the extra cash to feed their greedy lifestyles.

(V): The answer is using more green technology that will ween us off the oil glut. Also not listening to corporate lobby groups that support nothing but propaganda on climate change for their own personal profits.

rod03801: Is there a point to the question?

(V): So, you don't know the answer to the question.

rod03801: Yes.

(V): Answering a question with a question? Fun!

rod03801:

But WHO said anything about stopping all at once?
I don't recall anyone suggesting THAT.

Bwild: Pumped power systems are essential for load balancing within our modern power systems.

(V):

"Artful Dodger: Is that a reason to stop building more green energy supply systems... no."

But WHO said anything about stopping?
I don't recall anyone suggesting THAT.

I'm sure everyone (except possibly the oil companies) would prefer that SOME day we ARE at that point. But we aren't yet.
There has to be a reasonable way to reach that point. But stopping using fossil fuels all at once certainly won't get us there either.

Artful Dodger: Is that a reason to stop building more green energy supply systems... no.

At the moment we cannot supply the entire world. But some countries like Iceland have tapped into natural renewable energy.

"Five major geothermal power plants exist in Iceland, which produce approximately 26.2% (2010)[1] of the nation's energy. In addition, geothermal heating meets the heating and hot water requirements of approximately 87% of all buildings in Iceland. Apart from geothermal energy, 73.8% of the nation’s electricity was generated by hydro power, and 0.1% from fossil fuels."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_power_in_Iceland

Is that an isolated example, or just a country willing to use 'free' energy.

"In the meantime, we need to drill, drill, drill"

And when the price goes through the roof, what then? A Mad Max type scenerio!!

"I'll bet good money you use fossil fuels all the time."

..because we are still reliant on power plants built decades ago, and still in the process of building green systems. But there are (I've just read) some suppliers in the UK who invest the profits into more green energy. One supplier states that at the present over 50% of the energy they supply comes from green sources. That is a big difference compared to the big 6 energy companies in the UK, who's reputation at the moment is very bad.

After looking at the differences between them and the big 6.. it looks like a good deal. Even better then the non profit company we currently use.

We have a LONG way to go before we can supply the world with affordable, efficient, green energy. Anyone who says otherwise is either a liar or a moron. We're just not there yet. In the meantime, we need to drill, drill, drill.

(V): you can cite all the isolated green energy "successes" you want but that won't prove that the entire world can be sustained by these technologies. In fact, they can't. That's the science of it. Isolated example prove nothing.

"As predicted was inevitable, today the Spanish newspaper La Gaceta runs with a full-page article fessing up to the truth about Spain’s “green jobs” boondoggle, which happens to be the one naively cited by President Obama no less than eight times as his model for the United States. It is now out there as a bust, a costly disaster that has come undone in Spain to the point that even the Socialists admit it, with the media now in full pursuit....his is now an explosive scandal in Spain, coming on the heels of shabby treatment over there in payback to an academic team for having pointed the disaster out (joined by equally shabby treatment by the Obama administration).

I’d say “I hate to say I told you so,” but I revel in it. My only regret is that they couldn’t have admitted it about three weeks ago to coincide even more perfectly with the release of Power Grab: How Obama’s Green Policies Will Steal Your Freedom and Bankrupt America. In the book, I detail the folly of Obama’s claims about European “green economy” miracles and what cramming them down here means for you, unless you stand up and fight back now.

The man who exposed the disaster, Dr. Gabriel Calzada, kindly praises the dissection of “free ice cream” “green jobs” economics on the jacket. That fight begins anew next week with the likely Senate vote on S.J. Res. 26, the Murkowski resolution to disapprove of the Environmental Protection Agency’s attempt to impose much of this agenda through the regulatory back door without Congress ever having authorized such an enormous economic intervention. Read Power Grab to get your head around the numerous fallacies and fabrications, and give Washington hell."

I'll bet good money you use fossil fuels all the time. Why is that Jules?

(V): you can cite all the isolated green energy "successes" you want but that won't prove that the entire world can be sustained by these technologies. In fact, they can't. That's the science of it. Isolated example prove nothing.

Jack: Which is probably more due to all the nuclear weapons testing. The contaminants from those far outweigh all the radiation leaks that have occurred.

... over 2000 atomic and hydrogen bomb tests.

"what lengths they will go to to buy off nuclear inspectors"

Then that is a problem of human corruption. Just as much as the BP oil spill.

"winter disaster being suffered by Europe this year"

??? All I can say on that is compared to last year in the UK, this winter has been mild.

(V):Yes radiation recovery continues but the effects on child birth defects and radiation caused cancers continue to rise. Their is no such thing ad acceptable radiation levers it is just another corporate backed scam. GE has already proven how unreliable their nuclear technology is and what lengths they will go to to buy off nuclear inspectors and then  their is also the long lasting effects on ground water when nuclear waste leaks into the ground.

Oil only creates dead zones like we have now in the Gulf because of the way energy cons like Hayward buys off politicians so they do not have to be responsible for the environmental damage they cause.

Green energy is the only cure for the environmental damage and climate change we are causing.

With the winter disaster being suffered by Europe this year I would think green technology would be a #1 issue.
 

Artful Dodger: Oh yes there is. Wind, wave, solar, geothermal and now magnetic power amplifiers that produce more energy than inputted. The main problems seem to be the old companies being unwilling to give up their market share of the energy business and therefore creating alot of misinformation.

"Fossil fuels can be harvested efficiently and cleanly."

Most aren't though are they.


"Less than a week ago 106 mostly Conservative MPs wrote to the Prime Minister, urging cuts in public subsidies to UK windfarms, on the grounds that these towering turbines were neither efficient to run nor pleasing on the eye."

NIMBY's aka Not In My Back Yard. The conservatives are probably being pressed by those who are looking more out for their house prices than anything else.

eg..
"In the affluent English village of Ashtead, Surrey, which lies on the outside of London, residents objected in 2007[13] to the conversion of a large, £1.7 million residential property into a family support centre for relatives of wounded British service personnel. The house was to be purchased by a registered charity, SSAFA Forces Help.[14][15][16] Local residents objected to the proposal out of fear of increased traffic and noise, as well as the possibility of an increased threat of terrorism. They also contended that the SSAFA charity is actually a business, thereby setting an unwelcome precedent.[17] Local newspapers ran articles titled "Nimby neighbours' war with wounded soldiers' families" and "No Heroes in my Backyard.""

Jack: Yes they are, just like every other European country. It's part of a concertive effort all within the EU to cut down on our dependence on fossil fuels and nuclear.

"This is not true radiation is nothing like these things. "

Toxicology wise, I believe it is true. If a tanker leaks it's crude oil into the environment it's effects can last for years or decades. Millions of gallons of escaped oil can create kill zones where nothing can live.

"Radiation cannot be recovered"

Yes it can, such efforts have been going on near the windscale nuclear plant for years.

Green Energy vs. Endangered Species vs. Native Americans
How ironic is it when a lefty-supported green energy project gets stalled by two other lefty favorite causes?

One of California’s showcase solar energy projects, under construction in the desert east of Los Angeles, is being threatened by a deadly outbreak of distemper among kit foxes and the discovery of a prehistoric human settlement on the work site.

The $1-billion Genesis Solar Energy Project has been expedited by state and federal regulatory agencies that are eager to demonstrate that the nation can build solar plants quickly to ease dependence on fossil fuels and curb global warming.

Instead, the project is providing a cautionary example of how the rush to harness solar power in the desert can go wrong — possibly costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars and dealing an embarrassing blow to the Obama administration’s solar initiative.

[snip]

Native Americans, including the leaders of a nearby reservation, are trying to have Genesis delayed or even scuttled because they say the distemper outbreak and discovery of a possible Native American cremation site show that accelerated procedures approved by state and federal regulators failed to protect wildlife and irreplaceable cultural resources.

Just to recap, this was not only green-lighted but expedited by both the Democratic President Barack Obama and the Democratic Governor of California Jerry Brown… and now it’s being brought to a screeching halt (and likely costing taxpayers more money) because they cut corners trying to get a showpiece solar project open… probably wanting for Obama to be able to point to this example of his “green energy” plans on the campaign trail.

Mind you, I don’t want the cute little kit foxes to be hurt, and I definitely think we should honor the Native American burial site, just as I think Obama should honor the religious objections of Catholics and other Christians to birth control.

What this shows is more incompetence on the part of the Obama and Brown administrations… as if we needed more evidence of Obama’s incompetence.

hydro is the way to go.

Übergeek 바둑이: I didn't say fossil fuels ARE harvested efficiently and clean, I said it can be done. And it can.

Übergeek 바둑이: The mumbo-jumbo is people that support these vile Koch Nazis and continually make excuses for them. Nothing you can tell me about the Koch or Bush Nazi ties. And Koch joined the communist party in Russia before slimming his way to America.

As far as the tar sands go it is the greatest scam devised by corporate energy cons. Their is no such thing as clean oil or coal or nuclear energy.
If Canada wants to support China with this tar sand sludge and blight on the world let them ship it from their own ports.

Artful Dodger:

> Fossil fuels can be harvested efficiently and cleanly.

You are echoing the oil industry propaganda machine. The oil industry is neither efficient nor clean. Look at some photographs by artist Edard Burtynsky. He photographs the reality that the oil industry does not want end consumers to see.

http://www.edwardburtynsky.com/

Look at his works under "Oil".

This one is here in Alberta where I live. The Keystone pipeline is supposed to bring oil from here to the USA. This placed used to be a virgin boreal forest over bogs and ponds. Is this picture "clean and efficient"?

http://www.edwardburtynsky.com/WORKS/Oil/Oil_Book_Large/EXTRACTION_and_REFINEMENT/016-OLF_ALB_07_07_Oil.html

Every year migratory birds land in the tailings ponds and get covered in oil and toxic waste. We need oil, but that is not an excuse to be chanting praises of "clean and efficient" for the oil industry.

Jack:

> http://unknownjournal.wordpress.com/2010/10/06/%E2%96%BC-report-the-kochs-their-nazi-past-american-oil-the-foundation-of-republican-ideology/


"Erich Koch had been in charge of Prussia for Hitler so his ties to the Soviet Union ran deep. A few years later the Soviets took Fred Koch’s oil and prosecuted Erich for war crimes – Fred Koch returned to the US, became anti-communist, and was allowed to do business in the States again."

That article is pure mumbo-jumbo. There is no relationship between Fred Koch and Erich Koch except that they share the same last name. Fred C. Koch is the son of a Dutch father. Erich Koch was born in Prussia and died in prison in Poland for his war crimes. The American Kochs were never communists or members of the communist party of the Soviet Union. Fred C. Koch tried to do business in Russia and became "disenchanted" with communism. Most likely he was always an anticommunist and went to Russia as a spy. Like all westerners, he wanted access to the oil in the Caspian Sea basin.

Nazis and Communists hated each other. Anybody who claims otherwise is merely ignoring the historical reality of the deep hatred between nazis and communists.

The second article:

http://www.tetrahedron.org/articles/new_world_order/bush_nazis.html

is quite good. I saw something very similar in Webster Tarpley's biography of George H.W. Bush:

http://tarpley.net/online-books/george-bush-the-unauthorized-biography/.

Prescott Bush and Samuel P. Bush were nazi sympathizers. Over the decades that followed WW II the American government has tried to sanitize their image. However, their involvement as bankers to Friz Thyssen and his nazi blood money cannot be erased from history so easily. In fairness, just because Prescott Bush was a nazi banker, it does not meant that George H.W. Bush or George . Bush are nazis. They might be right wingers, even imperialists (if one interprets their actions as such), but the sins of the father not necessarily visit the son and grandson.

As the world’s biggest windfarm opens off Cumbria, critics continue to question the turbine boom

Less than a week ago 106 mostly Conservative MPs wrote to the Prime Minister, urging cuts in public subsidies to UK windfarms, on the grounds that these towering turbines were neither efficient to run nor pleasing on the eye. Yet today sees the opening, in Cumbria, of the world’s biggest-ever windfarm, the switch-on to be performed by Ed Davey, the new man in charge of energy and climate change (his predecessor Chris Huhne having temporarily pulled the plug on his political career).

So while Westminster continues to provide an ever-renewable source of Cabinet ministers, it also houses plenty of people who are far from fired up by the prospect of green power, as provided by a 150ft wind turbine. Reviews of windfarms so far read “stupid” (Lord Lawson) and “absolutely useless” (Duke of Edinburgh). Their comments have now been amplified by the MPs’ letter.

(V): There really isn't any renewable energy source that at the moment can replace our fossil fuel needs. That is not to say that it isn't possible but we're a way off.

Fossil fuels can be harvested efficiently and cleanly. Until there is the necessary new technology that is affordable and more importantly, available in plenty, all this talk of green energy is just talk.

(V):"It's a disaster, just like with a plane crashing, oil tanker/field leak.
Compared to Chernobyl, or the 'accidents' elsewhere it's no way near
the scale."

This is not true radiation is nothing like these things. Radiation cannot be recovered and is just a disaster waiting to happen. You cannot bury nuclear wast underground permanently it's only out of sight until the containers deteriorate. Even France that depends almost entirely on nuclear power is starting to convert to other sources of energy.
Getting rid of nuclear waste is also a corporate scam that the taxpayers have to spend their money on to get rid of what these energy cons produce.

Your right V about American potential for green energy we have several good sources and need to start using then to their fullest.

Artful Dodger: Clean fossil fuel power plants?

"are both affordable and efficient."

Renewable is. You guys in the USA have so much untapped power. Solar especially, California sits on a goldmine of geothermal.

Jack: Until we develop and install green energy sources.. we need current tech. There are pro's and con's with fossil and Nuclear. N' corruption seems at the moment to be higher in the fossil fuel business.

"like I said we cannot even handle the nuclear waste we have built up so far and we want to create more."

Yes we can... it is buried underground. Same as the way to deal with fossil fuel plant emissions of CO2 and actually make it 'clean'.

"I would like to see anyone prove the Japanese nuclear disaster does not have a negative impact on the world and it's food supply as well as the near future deaths it has and will cause as well as many birth defects."

It's a disaster, just like with a plane crashing, oil tanker/field leak. Compared to Chernobyl, or the 'accidents' elsewhere it's no way near the scale.

(V): Ha! We agree. But what are those other sources? I'm for fossil fuels until we have viable alternatives that are both affordable and efficient.

(V):Yes we have to use other sources but nuclear is not one of them V. Their is to much corruption between the nuclear watchdogs and corporations and then like I said we cannot even handle the nuclear waste we have built up so far and we want to create more. I think that is very poor idea. I would like to see anyone prove the Japanese nuclear disaster does not have a negative impact on the world and it's food supply as well as the near future deaths it has and will cause as well as many birth defects. It's always the innocent people that get the bullet in the head.

Jack: There is always present the natural background radiation. This is a low level field that we are use to and some suspect helps stimulate the immune system. Studies on people who live in areas with 4x the natural do not show extra related deaths.

Nuclear energy leaves much to be desired. While it is relatively clean, the waste does need burying in deep mines in special containers for a long long time.

At the moment we need a mix of energy supplies to be realistic. More green definitely, but until we have battery systems that can store green energy at a sufficient level, we need other sources.

(V):<b> Their is no such thing as good exposure to radiation it all builds up in your body over time.

Our NRC just approved more nuclear power plants to be designed by GE one of the biggest corporate scam companies ever devised. We can't dispose of the nuclear waste we have now and they want to create more.

The world needs green energy not more corporate scams.

Jack: Radiation is a tricky one, depends on what type (alpha/beta,etc) and what isotopes.

(V): I have little faith in governments that declare areas to be safe after they have created these disaster zones.

Even with radiation like the recent release in Japan the agencies responsible for putting out warnings just up the safe levels of radiation people can stand which is nothing but more support for corporations paying off government officials to keep their products moving.

Worldwide people have to stand up to corrupt officials and stop listening to mental cases like Beck, Limbaugh and Murdock.

Übergeek 바둑이: I'm just waiting for him like the founder of the Mormon religion to find some golden tablets.

"he probably thinks that at some point he will recover his TV show as people forget some of the stupid things he has done in the past."

Will the 400+ advertisers that boycotted his program forget.

Jack: Our gov experimented with Anthrax on a little island off Scotland during WWII... In case the Germans went onto using chemical/biological weapons.

The island is still unsafe for human habitation, with any still remaining anthrax spores possibly active for 100's of years. It has been officially cleared as 'safe' after decontamination and the removal of topsoil. But people 'unofficially' consider it a place to avoid.

(V):

> These revolutionary groups are funded by George Soros and the whole thing is being orchestrated by America's most famous community organiser, President Barack Obama.

I imagine that Mr. Beck wanted to rally up people like he did in the USA but it backfired on him. Rather than admitting that he was wrong, Glenn Beck goes on a tirade against George Soros and the president. Glenn Beck is delusional. Just because George Soros donated a lot of money to Obama's campaign it does not mean that they are both some communist conspirators bent on taking over the world. This shows Glenn Beck as a narcissistic and paranoid. Well, the idea for him is to continue in the public eye so he can keep making money. Somewhere in his mind, he probably thinks that at some point he will recover his TV show as people forget some of the stupid things he has done in the past.

(V): Our motives are not always filled with good intentions But we should know better today. America used captured Nazi war criminals to develop it's jet engines as well as it's rocket motors. We uses Japanese war criminals to develop our bacterial and chemical weapons.
Our politicians glorify these actions instead of being ashamed of them.

Our methods are seldom filled with the good intentions we propagandize. It seems like we are doomed to keep making the same mistakes over and over at the high cost of innocent lives.

Jack: Reminds me of one little point about Von Braun... Before he was head hunted by the USA (as he wanted to be).... he was designing the V series of weapons. The intent in the end was to build ICBM's (V10) capable of bombing the east coast of the USA with a warhead that would probably been of nerve gas, or if the tech came together... nuclear.

Never mind that his ideas killed 1000's of UK citizens or that he knew his weapons were being built by slave labour, of which 20,000 died from the hellish treatment he received.

(V):

Beck was never anything but comedy central material. FOX used him and
dumped him. The Marxist nonsense these wing nuts keep harking on is a
fantasy dreamed up by Koch lobbies and supported by Murdock.



These
people outright support communism. Their support for union busting and
attacks on organized labor has it's roots in the old communist Russia
government. It has been proven that the Koch tea party corporate lobby
has it's roots in Communist Russia which the Koch family was a charter
member.



Some interesting information about the Koch and Bush Nazi ties.

http://unknownjournal.wordpress.com/2010/10/06/%E2%96%BC-report-the-kochs-their-nazi-past-american-oil-the-foundation-of-republican-ideology/

Report: The Koch's, A Nazi Past, Oil & The Foundation of The Right

Ilse, the grand mother to these Koch billionaires was the only female Nazi to be tried and convicted of war crimes.



 Note: This article's author,
John Loftus, is a former U.S. Department of Justice Nazi War Crimes prosecutor,
the President of the Florida Holocaust Museum and the highly respected author of
numerous books on the CIA-Nazi connection including The Belarus Secret and The
Secret War Against the Jews, both of which have extensive material on the
Bush-Rockefeller-Nazi connection.



">http://www.tetrahedron.org/articles/new_world_order/bush_nazis.html



Koch was also a member of the Russian communist party before he immigrated to America.

The Koch and Bush families are the most vile traitors to ever cross the Atlantic.



The biggest problem with free speech is that scam artists like Beck and Murdock get to abuse it and become millionaires off it.

Glenn Beck is extremely upset with how he is being treated by former colleagues at Fox News because of comments he made about Occupy Wall Street. Beck appeared on his old friend Bill O'Reilly's program last week (view clip) and expounded upon his theory that the protests are not an organic uprising of disenchanted Americans, but a global movement with Marxist roots led by several revolutionary groups like the Service Employees Union and Working Families. These revolutionary groups are funded by George Soros and the whole thing is being orchestrated by America's most famous community organiser, President Barack Obama. O'Reilly gave Beck's theory the benefit of the doubt, but Fox News ace reporter Geraldo Rivera, was less kind, saying Beck's words were "harsh at best, paranoid or delusional at worst". Beck did not take kindly to Geraldo's insulting dismissal of his theory and accused him, in turn, of being a sheep (view clip).

"... For anyone who's thinking about Occupy Wall Street and saying, "you know, they made a good point," we're going to do a little critical thinking today and one of them is this. When the lion lays down with the lamb, that's when Jesus comes. In the meantime, the lion eats the lamb. Another name for lamb? Sheep! Stop being sheep, America! Otherwise, he will eat you!...."

Did Glenn fall asleep to this movie??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STA0u6kQB4w&feature=related

Artful Dodger: Can't help seeing things you might not. Different education system. Different country... different history

(V): You do love to spin.