Czuch: Just a side note to your comment "The US government is me and you and we" that you are speaking of is actually, One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president and nine Supreme Court justices - 545 human beings out of the 235 million. That are directly, legally, morally and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country. Like them or hate them, they are the powers to be

Czuch: Sure, the poor peoples of the world want more material goods, and some of them want the relative freedoms we enjoy. But they don't want our oppression of them so that we can be so wealthy. And America is slipping...less freedom, less wealth for the average citizen.

The U.S. government may be YOU, but it certainly isn't ME. I claim no part of it, I didn't vote for it. It doesn't represent me.

If you are an ally of the Iraqi people, it is a strange allegiance that combines affection with indifference towards the suffering your government causes them.

(V): "he learns two bits of info"

Yes, two bits of data, which hopefully he will utilize the many parts of thinking to properly interpret. :o)

The Usurper: the U.S. govt. was an enemy of the Vietnamese people, and it is now an enemy of the Iraqi people.


The US government is me and you and we, maybe you feel like an enemy to the Iraqi people, but not me, I feel like an ally of the Iraqi people...

... and like I said, the Vietnamese people thanked me in person for what the US did there, and they wish we would have done MORE!

You may personally hate the US, but make no mistake, we are a beacon around the world, and poor oppressed and hopeless people all around the globe dream and hope for any opportunity to have what we have, we represent hope to them, I am sure I could find millions of people, Iraqis and Vietnamese included, who would trade places with you right now in a heart beat!

The Usurper: Oh well, anyways.. he learns two bits of info

With intelligence one can grasp data, but the interpretation of such..... Computers can understand data, but they can't think and thinking has many parts to it.

(V): It's funny, for years I used to go around saying, "I grok that," or "I am grokking the fullness," and of course no one had a clue what I was talking about. lol

(V): With intelligence only, one can in some sense know. But wisdom must be added, if one is to grok. :o)

(V): Maybe I am mistaken...I was under the impression Bwild is asking about the Nazi quote in the subject line?

The Usurper: Yep,,, Intelligence is nothing without it.

Bwild: They say King Solomon and others who he collected writings of.

(V): Proverbs 8 has always been one of my favorite passages of scripture, not only for its content but for its beautiful expression. Wisdom, that is the principle thing...therefore get wisdom! :o)

"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists."
~ J. Edgar Hoover

"Yes, many people will die when the New World Order is established, but it will be a much better world for those who survive".
~ Henry Kissinger

"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."
~ David Rockefeller

"The greatest purveyor of violence on earth is my own government"
~ Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think."
~ Adolf Hitler

When stupidity is considered patriotism, it is unsafe to be intelligent.
~ Isaac Asimov

"Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death."
~ Adolf Hitler

"The great masses of people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one. Especially if it is repeated over and over."
~ Adolph Hitler

"The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth becomes the greatest enemy of the state."
~ Dr. Joseph M. Goebbels - Hitler's propaganda minister

"I know two types of law because I know two types of men,
those who are with us and those who are against us."
~ Hermann Goering, 1936

"You are either with us or against us."
~ George W. Bush, November 2001

"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
~ G.W. Bush August 27 1988

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."
~ Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994

"That’s where the Bush family fortune came from: It came from the Third Reich"
~ John Loftus

"There's really five companies that control 90 percent of what we read, see and hear."
~ Ted Turner

Czuch: It sounds like the Vietnamese are gracious in victory, and also - as (V) says - its Communist party recognizes the importance of friendly relations with the U.S. for economic development.

If Iraq manages to kick us out, maybe in 20 years they'll make some progress and then be gracious in victory as well. You'll then claim that all their progress is due to the U.S. invasion? lol

In one sense, you are partially correct. When an enemy doesn't kill you outright, he makes you stronger. Make no mistake, the U.S. govt. was an enemy of the Vietnamese people, and it is now an enemy of the Iraqi people.

Bwild: Hermann Goering, Hitler’s Reich Marshall, at the Nuremberg Trials after World War II.

(V):who wrote it?

"Legislative branch

The 11th National Assembly (Quoc Hoi) has 498 members. The 12th National Assembly, to be inaugurated in July 2007, consists of 493 members. The National Assembly is elected for five year terms. Dr. Nguyễn Phú Trọng is Chairman of the National Assembly. Vietnam is a single-party state. This means that only one political party, the Communist Party of Vietnam is legally allowed to hold effective power. At the last elections, 20 May 2007, only the Vietnamese Fatherland Front, a front of the Communist Party of Vietnam, mass organizations and affiliated, and some non-partisans were allowed to participate. One member was self-nominated and does not belong to the VVF. Forty-three seats were won by non-party candidates. The president is elected for a five year term by the parliament."

Czuch: Um the government is communist now, just they have recognised that economic development is more important.

Bwild: It's in the Old testament, Proverbs 8.... which happens to be mainly about wisdom, as is the rest of proverbs.

(V): The point I was making is that the Vietnamese people, regardless of the hardships some had to endure, the overwhelming majority appreciate what we tried to do for them, to help them stave off the oppression of communism, and 30 years later they are a more prosperous place than had we let the north communists take over the whole country, and from there who knows....

They do not resent us, they do not hate us, they like that even in failure, we tried to do what was right and stand up for them, and with them in the name of freedom, and it is my point to draw a comparison with them and the Iraqis.... Usurper claims the Iraqis didnt want to be liberated, and they resent us, and that we have caused more problems than we have helped.... but history will prove him wrong on all counts

(V):who wrote that?

Czuch: Điện Biên Phủ

The Usurper: Wisdom... the first thing created by God.. as per proverbs.

22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [b] , [c]
before his deeds of old. 23 I was appointed [d] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;

25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, 31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.

32 "Now then, my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. 34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway.

35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.

36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death."

(V): To grok or not to grok is certainly the question, and contrary to the apparent opinions of some, no 11th commandment can be found in Exodus or Deuteronomy, stating, "Thou shalt not grok."

As you've intimated, grokking comes with a price.

The Usurper: That would mean some groking, and that unfortunately leads to certain 'side effects' as stated in ecclesiates (sp)

The Usurper: It's just a matter of studying history and remembering it. Kings, politicians, religious leaders, revolutionaries... they've all used it.

eg The Dark Ages.

(V): "....would be nice if some others could broaden their awareness."

That's not meant as a slight. I mean it really would be a wonderful thing.

(V): Says it all. I knew you would understand it....would be nice if some others could broaden their awareness. :o)

The Usurper: Aye, the tools of our leaders. Throughout history it's all been the same.

Czuch: No you lost Vietnam, those who took over made it prosperous, as for Cambodia... you are missing the point... Chinese!!!!!!! If the war had spread then direct Chinese involvement was going to happen I recon. That would have led to a war no one could win.

Czuch: I didn't I just expected Bush (and those 'guiding' him) to be truthful as much as possible. Not make up stories of weapons bunkers that were so vague. You could tell from interviews with officials like Ms Rice that something was up.

No Pres can perform miracles. But they can at least show intelligence and wisdom and not be pushed and pulled by interested parties.

"Why, of course, the people don't want war," [Hermann] Göring shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," [Gustave M. Gilbert] pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare war."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

(Nuremberg Diary, pp. 278–79)

(V): The only way to have one the Vietnam war would have to taken on the suppliers of arms to the North Vietnamese

I am not saying the US had a great plan to win in Vietnam, they learned nothing from the French failure at dien ben foo (or however it is spelled, dont have time to look it up right now) but the french messed up and underestimated the Vietnamese and the US didnt learn a thing and did the same mistakes all over again.

It was against the law for the US to bomb the supply route to the viet cong by way of the ho chi mihn trail because it went through Cambodia, and it was our government who ultimately got in the way of our successful help there.

Anyway, even if you are right and there was no way to win in the jungle, ultimately we have won, because Vietnam is more prosperous now than then, and they are our allies more now than ever, and they are happy we helped them, and they are better off for it!

Iraq will be no different....

(V): they are then thinking that the Pres is God and can perform miracles


Funny, when Bush was President, thats what was expected from him, to perform miracles, to the point where every disaster was blamed on him... but no such lofty expectations from the Bam.

(V): Either that or it is coincidence number 1,647,248,506,354,035,503,344,445. lol

I think it must have been a safety precaution, in case something went wrong with the plan & they got caught in the act.

Actually, a lot DID go wrong. Had all the flights departed on schedule, then the crashes could have been no more than 20 minutes from first to last. Then NORAD wouldn't have been accused of a stand down order. As it was, for example, Flight 93 took off 41 minutes late.

So it appears there were contingent plans. Flight 77 couldn't make it to the Pentagon, or whichever plane was supposed to hit it....so they used a missile or small military plane. WTC 7, maybe, was the target of one of the planes, but had to be demolished in the afternoon when a plane didn't get there. It was likely the headquarters of operation (CIA and other secret agencies had space in the building).

The Usurper: 4 days before.... Mmmmmmm. That's like they kinda knew something was about to happen.

Czuch: The only way to have one the Vietnam war would have to taken on the suppliers of arms to the North Vietnamese. Not really a good idea. The US thought they could win it in the jungle.. .. no way, it was impossible. Even if they had taken out the main armies, there would have been a guerilla war after that would have killed and killed and killed.

(V): I agree with you, not disputing that at all. Of course no Pres can solve this deepening crisis, and certainly not right away. I was only taking an opportunity to point out another of those 9/11 mysteries. lol

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- Florida Governor Jeb Bush signed Executive Order 01-261 September 7, 2001, four days before the WTC tragedy of Sept. 11, which paves the way for a declaration of martial law in his state. The governor, in his EO, delegated to, “...the Adjutant General of the state of Florida all necessary authority....to order members of the Florida National Guard into Active Service.”

Immediately after the second WTC tower fell, Governor Bush signed EO 01-262 to make Florida the first state to declare a state of emergency though his state did not experience any terrorist events that day. Governor Bush is reportedly the only governor in the U.S. outside of NY and D.C. to make a declaration of martial law in the wake of the WTC tragedy. Interestingly, Governor Bush's declaration came before authorities in New York or Washington, D.C. declared states of emergency."

http://proliberty.com/observer/20011008.htm

[Verrrrrrrrrry interesting]

The Usurper: No Pres could make the markets recover just like that, they are two screwed at the mo and short on cash thanks to bad debts, no money to lend, reduced sales and alot of people worrying more about losing their homes, jobs, etc.

There is a lack of trust in the USA economy and those who were supposed to be .... wise in the matters of money. Until that is restored.... ....

Czuch: Ever heard of the plans to use a bio-engineered fungicide on the USA to kill poppy and cannabis plants. It was supposed to only affect these two plants. It was to be used in Florida and got approved, but the courts reversed the decision as they were unsure that the fungicide (Fusarium oxysporum) would remain stable and not mutate and start attacking all plants.

The Columbian Government earlier vetoed plans by the USA to test a similar fungicide on the same grounds.

(V): "better find the Pres a large deposit of gold."

Apparently a large deposit of gold is one of the things missing from beneath the WTC. Another unsolved mystery.....

Czuch: Not at the moment. Too soon. It is gonna take time to correct what has gone wrong, and if anyone thinks an instant upturn is going to happen because of a new Pres (it wouldn't have mattered if McCain got elected the same situation would still be happening) they are then thinking that the Pres is God and can perform miracles and wipe out all the debt, fraud, etc just with a wave of a wand... better find the Pres a large deposit of gold.

Czuch: So you believe the Vietnam war was a just cause, and that we should have stuck it out to victory? And you interviewed some people in Vietnam who hold this view?

It is estimated that 2-4 million died in Vietnam during the war. It is known that we dropped more bombs in Vietnam that we did in WWII. Are you suggesting we just didn't kill enough of them to break the will of the Vietcong & North Vietnamese? Or what?

Also a question for you, just a general one. If you support our intervening in other countries for the betterworld of the world, why do you call yourself a conservative? That's a progressive policy.

So let's say you are a progressive on foreign policy, not a conservative. Are you a conservative at home? Well, you support welfare to the rich, so I guess not. Hmmmm...these terms keep getting twisted out of their proper & historical meanings.

But back to foreign policy. A true progressive believes we can better the world by intervention. So the motives are good. But I ask you, if a dictatorial power, or an imperial power (same thing) wants to spread its influence & force abroad, what will it claim? Why, it will claim to be a progressive power, trying to better the world & help people, etc.

So the question then is this...how do you distinguish between a truly progressive motive and a motive that is imperial but pretends it is progressive? Do you think that, by definition, if the U.S. is doing it, it is always progressive, and if someone else is doing it (like Russia or China) it is always oppressive? Or do you look to the evidence at hand, on a case-by-case basis, or perhaps at historical patterns?

Czuch: "This sucks, I have to be to work in 20 m inutes and need a shower and a 15 minute drive.... whoops!"

Ok, be careful. We've time for this debate later (I hope).

"Really? You have someone who has personally been there conducting personal interviews with the common people today????"

I thought you meant you fought in Vietnam. I keep forgetting your age, you remind me so much of Archie Bunker. lol

I'll look into that and get back with you. Have a good day at work.

The Usurper: Often in a dictatorship, people go the way of the dictators.

The Usurper: There are plenty of voices from Vietnam who speak a different tale about the Vietnamese than you do.


Really? You have someone who has personally been there conducting personal interviews with the common people today????

Czuch: "Problem is, I USED to think like you, and I have seen things more clearly and my opinions have already changed!!"

Too bad you changed. Often in a dictatorship, people go the way of the dictators.

This sucks, I have to be to work in 20 m inutes and need a shower and a 15 minute drive.... whoops!

Czuch: "I have personally been to Vietnam...."

There are plenty of voices from Vietnam who speak a different tale about the Vietnamese than you do.

The Usurper: Problem is, I USED to think like you, and I have seen things more clearly and my opinions have already changed!!