"Snoopy": What is the point of points in cloning backgammon?

gambler104: ive no idea yet try asking joshi tm

"Snoopy": So have we

◙ The Gammon Cube ◙
Please join in!

as many ppl seem to be playing cloning backgammon as normal backgammon is cloning actually a good idea as you end up with alot more counters than you opponents do and its harder to bear of and win

Now that Cloning Backgammon is out, we should *really* have some way to distinguish standard checkers on the bar from "race" checkers. Background, highlight, different place, but something !

Marfitalu: Yes, Shogi / Loop Chess are good comparison points. But for me, about anything distinguishable would do it.

nabla: I agree. It can be very confusing and if you don't pay very careful attention, it is quite possible to make a critical error. You could always look at move notation and judge from that, but that does take longer and you are more prone to making a mistake.

"Snoopy": From what I have seen so far in my games, it is similar to normal backgammon. There are two differences. First, sometimes you avoid hitting to avoid cloning. However, cloning is sometimes good, if it enables you to have an advantage as in this game.

Cloning Backgammon (gambler104 vs. prettymama)
(moves 10 and 11). So I hope this helps a little.

nabla: I've played a game and used the checkers from an other board so we've had different colour for the 'racers'. I definately would suggest that well.

And downloadable MAT-files for BG!

Had this thought while playing a tournament in which each pairing plays two matches.  What if you and your opponent played two games simultaneously, rolling two pairs of dice at a time.  You could choose which pair to apply to which game.  (Many variations suggest themselves, such as choosing two out of four for each game, etc., but let's stick with the basic idea for the moment.)  So, let's say the dice are 4-4 and 6-3.  I could use the 4-4 in either Game 1 or Game 2, but not both.  I would have to use the 6-3 in the other.  It might also be interesting to have a rule that you must use as many dice as possible, so that you could not assign dice in such a way that one or more could not be used, if there was another assignment that used more of them.

Double Choice Backgammon - each player has 2 sets of dice.
Triple Choice Backgammon - each player has 3 sets of dice.

Below - I'm explaining the triple choice.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

At the start of the game, each player has 3 sets of dice.

Each player rolls their 3 pairs, giving them 3 moves to choose from (where the other opponent can see their 3 choices)

example:

Player 1 has: 6-5, 3-3, and 5-1
Player 2 has: 6-2, 5-5, and 5-2

To start, the person with the "biggest" pair wins. (Player 1 has 6-5, so goes first. If there is a tie, it goes down the the second "biggest" pair.. and then third, and if all 3 match - then re-roll everything)

First player can choose which one of the pairs of dice to use for their move. So for example, player 1 decides to use the 3-3, and makes their move. They then re-roll ONLY the dice that were used (leaving the 2 unused there), and then their turn is over.

... and so on and so on.

= = = =
Other rules:
If possible, you have to pick a pair that will allow you to use BOTH dice. (If one of the dice has a 6 and you can move 6, then you can't pick that pair if another pair allows you to use both dice)

If you can only use 1 dice from all rolls, you have to use the higher of the 2 numbers.

If you can't move with any of your dice, you can pick 1 pair to re-roll. After the re-roll, your turn is over and you can then use that re-roll on your next turn.

Most everything else would be similar to backgammon. What this game adds is a lot more strategy - since not only do you have multiple things to choose to do each turn, you can also see all possible moves your opponent has to make.

Fencer, when you make the new images needed for cloning backgammon (there can be more than 20 checkers on one point) could you put the number of checkers in the image as well? Something like this.

fakarten:Hey thats a good idea

fakarten: I plan to do it.

Fencer: What about the display of the "race" checkers vs the checkers on the bar ?

an interesting variant thus far...
what I'd like to see is feedback,suggestions, or requests about the other cloning variants...
...did Fencer open the door for this?...are we going to see 'cloning nackgammon' or 'cloning race'?.... I think 'cloning hyper' or 'cloning anti-' would make great variants myself...
...any thoughts before I start a crusade on the "feature request board" to add these variants?
as always, happy gaming!

LionsLair: cloning hyper

LionsLair: Ithink that only Cloning Crowded Gammon will make other strategies to the game. Cloning Antigamon is endless (or even more endless than Anti Gammon already is...) Cloning Hyper make too short games (where a race is going already) so cloning in CHG is useless. Nackgammon and Racegammon will not change the game strategies too much, only Cloning Crowded will change a chaotic CG game into total chaos.

LionsLair: Plus, if I recall correctly, Fencer has said at some point in the past that he doesn't like to create variants of variants.

cloning hyper would be funny though :)

Does anyone completely understand the point scoring? After reading the rules, i am still confused? Can both players score points in a game, or only the person who wins? Also, how do the normal gammons and back gammons come into play ina cubed match?

It seems strange, I just got 58 points in a 5 point match in the first game? Does thiS MAKE SENSE TO PLAY IT THAT WAY?

Any help will be appreciated!

Czuch Czuckers: I'm playing my first couple of games now, and it seems a little silly all those pieces on the bar. Could take years to finish at the rate I'm going, and I agree that the scoring seems tricky to understand. Don't think I'll play again.

grenv: yeah... I dont like the cubed games really, since you can easily get 50 points in one game! Plus i agree, some of my games have gotten ridiculous, and when you get behind, the only strategy is to try to drag out the game by adding as many pieces a s possible...

I'm still in the very early stages of my first few games of this, and I'm not sure why this is a variation?? What is the incentive to take advantage of the new rules in non-cube games? Or is the point that you want to avoid when you can, having to clone? I'm not getting why we want to play this, but probably only because I haven't gone far enough to see it yet. lol..

If someone could help me see, I would appreciate it.

rod03801:  Are you asking why you would want to capture an opponents piece?

Gr☺uch☺: I'm wondering why someone wants to clone. In the cubed version, I can see why, because if you have lots of pieces and manage to get them all off, blah blah blah, then you can get lots of points.

In the non-cubed games, I just don't see the point of wanting to clone. Yeah, I've played backgammon long enough to know why you want to knock your opponent to the bar. lol.. jeez..

I'm wondering is there some sort of extra advantage the cloning business has for someone??? Or is it one of those things where: maybe you won't always choose to knock your opponent to the bar, since it gives you an extra piece to have to take all around the board.

I just haven't gotten far enough in the game to see the point of it all. I was just looking for someone to enlighten me a bit.

rod03801: It seems to me that the strategy is to sometimes avoid hitting an opponent when in a normal game you would hit them? Then, sometimes if you are behind, you might want to leave many pieces uncovered, to force your opponent to hit you? I think it is less of a hazard to have men left open, especially in the early positions, and try extra hard to make a block by your home base, then force your opponent to make a hit on you and back them up, something like that. But then sometimes, i try to play it a lot like a normal game, and get it to a race as soon as possible!

rod03801:  OK.  I think I understand your question.  I think it's a disadvantage to clone.  That's the beauty of the game.  You can leave a piece exposed where normally you wouldn't. 

OTOH, if you have most of your home base covered, and you can put your opponent on the bar, he/she can't get that piece out becasue there will be no slots to land on (of few choices).  And your cloned piece can get out (assuming opponents home base has openings) and so the cloned piece is not a disadvantage to you.  

Another advantage to cloning might be to build up a wall in your opponents home base  thereby keeping him from getting all his pieces  home.  But the downside of that seems to be that  you still have a gauntlet of your own to navigate and every time you land on an opponents piece, you add another one of yours to the bar.  ;) 

So the biggest advantage I can see is only really available if you have your homebase covered so that an opponents piece on the bar has no place to go :)

does that make sense?  I should probably learn the exact terms of the board and pieces!  lol

Gr☺uch☺: Sure. Of course I understand. I was just hoping there was more to it than that. I guess I was expecting more from a new variation. Just because I love backgammon. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it, though. It just probably won't be one I'll play a lot. I'm not a fan of anti backgammon, and the "leaving open pieces as bait" strategy sounds too much like anti and it turns me off a bit! lol..

But it's always nice to have a new game to try.

rod03801:  i've never played anti so I'm a bit new at it all.  I'm not one that likes variants much.  Loop chess is fun but that's about it for chess.  I like backgammon race and hyper but beyond that, I'm not much on the other games. ;)

rod03801: Thats what it is I dont like about it! I wasnt sure... but it is a cross between anti and.... I really dont like anti much either!

What did my opponent say here?

ВЯРНО, ПЪЛНА СВИНЩИНА

The translation website that I used couldn't handle any of the words, but after a spell check returned:  "Truly, pork is full."  I think it lost something in the translation.

alanback: Lol. Did you get or not get the gammon?

playBunny:  I won the match 5-0 against a higher rated opponent ... who by the way is Bulgarian, not Russian as I assumed from the cyrillic text.

Oh, I see, gammon ... a pork reference not used in my country, ha ha ;-)

alanback: Heh heh. Just a guess. I couldn't translate it from Russian either, lol. I could ask AlliumCepa. He's Bulgaria's contribution to the Best of Europe team. Would you like to know the literal meaning?

Gr☺uch☺: Cloning is bad unless it serves some purpose. So in many cases you try to avoid hitting. But in some cases as in the game that I posted somewhere on here, I think it is advantageous to hit. Still a bit early to tell all the unique intracacies of the game.

As for variants, hyper could work but it seems that it would just turn into a match of complete luck. Race or crowded could work as could nackgammon. However, anti is not an option as games would never end.

playBunny:sure, thanks

gambler104: Cloning is bad unless it serves some purpose.

What about cloning cows for food, does that count?

It took some trial and error to get this formatted correctly, but here is the 
play-by-play if you're really interested :-)

N. Nakov	alanback

1. 	12-14, 1-2 	8-3, 8-3, 6-1*, 6-1

2. 	bar-2, 12-17 	8-5, 6-5

3. 	12-18, 14-18 	24-21, 21-15

4. 	12-18, 12-14 	24-20, 20-14*

5. 	bar-4, 19-20 	15-11, 14-13

6. 	17-21, 19-20 	5-4*, 5-4, 13-12, 12-11

7. 	pass 	        11-6, 13-10

8. 	pass 	        13-9, 11-10

9. 	bar-2, 18-21 	9-4, 13-11

10. 	17-22, 19-22 	13-11, 4-3

11. 	2-8, 8-12 	13-12*, 12-6

12. 	bar-2, 2-5 	11-5*, 10-5

13. 	pass 	        11-10, 10-9, 6-5, 10-9

14. 	pass 	        9-3, 9-4

15. 	bar-2, 17-18 	3-off, 1-off

16. 	17-18, 18-19, 	6-off, 5-off 

        19-20, 18-19

17. 	20-23, 19-21 	4-off, 3-1

18. 	21-22, 22-23,  	6-off, 6-1

        18-19, 19-20

19. 	2-6, 6-7 	5-off, 3-off

20. 	7-13, 13-19,  	5-1, 3-off

        2-8, 8-14

21. 	18-24, 14-15 	4-off, 4-3

22. 	15-21, 2-3* 	pass

23. 	21-23, 23-24 	pass

24. 	3-8, 8-13,  	pass

        13-18, 18-23

25. 	19-23, 23-off 	pass

26. 	19-off, 20-24 	pass

27. 	19-23, 22-off 	bar-19, 19-14

28. 	20-off, 23-off 	14-9, 9-8

29. 	20-off, 22-off 	8-4, 4-off, 1-off, 1-off

30.           (resigns)

This cloning variant has to be the most stupid game since anti!!!

Czuch Czuckers: LOL, why do u say that

Czuch Czuckers:  I like it.  What's wrong with it?

Gr☺uch☺: Me too, its a funny lol

NewYear is soon:  I must not be very good.  I don't think I've won a game yet and have only about a 1300 rating.  ! ;)

Gr☺uch☺:I am not doing to bad at it, still trying to understand the pointing system in the cubed version.

Czuch Czuckers: I totally agree, very dumb. Obviously not play tested before introduction to the site.

grenv:  What's dumb about it?  I haven't tried the cubed version yet.