More Jousting for 1800 and under...starts March 8th!! Look for it in the "Tournaments" Section.

Peace and good health to all.

The Gothic Chess Ladder has begun accepting challenges.

Come and see!

Also, the group decided to make it a one-game challenge.

6 battles are ongoing:

A) bwildman (position 12) challenges clean4today (position 9)!
B) ChessCarpenter (3) challenges Oliottavio (2)!
C) MidnightMedic (17) challenges Lythande (15)!
D) MatthewHall (16) challenges Spocko (14)!
E) Nasmichael (10) challenges Fencer (7)!
F) Greenknight (8) challenges Tangram (6)! --this one is particularly important,
as the winner of this clash may face one of the top 5!

I am a mug so you will need to elaborate a little on the Max_W etc codes, what they mean I mean :)

Lets take the queen vs. archbishop ending:

kqka 31 66.7 32.4 9.2 24 30.5 59.3 16.5 29

white has the queen
black has the archbishop

Max_W = maximum number of moves to win.
This is 31 moves for white.

% win = what percent of all of the white to move positions win? In this case, 66.7%

% draw = 32.4%

Ave_W = the average length of the wins for white to move. With 9.2, most are easy wins. With white having more power and the turn to move, this can be a little misleading.

The other states are for black to move. The longest win is 24 moves for the Archbishop side. This does not mean the Arch is stronger since it wins more quickly. It just means if you don't win within 24 moves, you aren't going to win.

Only 30.5% of the positions win with the Arch to move, and 59.3% are draws. The average win legnth is 16.5 moves when the Arch can move and win.

The last stat, Mzugs, is the count of mutual zugzwang positions.

Okay muggins is now better educated, thanks, but let me clarify that the second Max_W is the number of moves for white after black has moved first and I guess, Mzugs (mutual zugzwangs - sorry, never heard the term before) are postions from which both agree that to pursue the matter is a venture into hopelessness (for one side anyway).

Thanks GI

Tomorrow I have to go and play this through.
Thank you for looking.

The second max_w number applies to positions with black to move and win rather than white to move and win.

The "w" does not stand for white. It means Max Win Length.

Zugzwang is when it sucks to be your move. You lose as a result of it, and could draw if your opponent was to move.

Mutual Zug is very bizzarre. In super-tough endings, your side to move wins by the narrowest of margins. If your opponent could move, he can win. In fact, if you misplay, you go from a win to a loss!

Have you ever had a mutual zugzwang in your games?

now theres an unusual name.I'm curious as to its origion.

We have the Germans to thank.

ahhh...now I know how to describe myself!! LOL:)

I don't need a mutual zugswang to go from a win to a loss ... I can do it all on my lonesome LOL W:)

Yeah how did you lose that one game to ChessCarpenter? All he had was an Archhbishop and you had like 2 Rooks and a Knight or something like that :)

Skill and determination :)
[It was K+2N+1R+7pawns v K+1A+9pawns which is probably about even in points anyway]

I remember that game! I thought it was going to be a draw, but then you set a trap that I didn't go for. You had a back rank mate if I attacked your knight after a check! Very clever, but seen! My passed pawn was too far advanced for you stop, so I guess you gambled on me going for the trap! Good game.

well let's see. Subtract 7 pawns from each side.

2N + 1R vs. A + 2P

Let's convert A to B + N + 1P for the sake of simplicity.

2N + 1R vs. 1B + 1N + 3P

Subtract 1 Knight from each side

1N + 1R vs. 1B + 3P

Let a Bishop be a Knight plus half a pawn

1N + 1R vs. 1N + 3.5P

Subtract a Knight from both sides

1R vs. 3.5P

I'd say your side was doing better.

What is a link to this game? Or the game #?

I don't think I would trade my A for 2N + 1.5P.

Then again, all the pawns might have been easier to coordinate with 3 pieces instead of one A.

I think the Germans pronounce it "TZOOG-tsvahngk." It's a deeply intellectual phenomenon which people are much better at understanding than computers are. It most certainly deserves a different kind of name like this! The machine will be utterly incapable of "contemplating" such an oddity, while the human spirit can pause and look deeply into it, imagining the ancillary implications...

game#98589
Here is the game everyone!

Dear CC,

I tried your link, "game#98589," and got an error msg:

HTTP ERROR: 404 Not Found

RequestURI=/game/archievedgame

Powered by Jetty://

-Fx

I can't fix it! Fencer can you help!

Thanks for the help Ed! I used "Arcivedgame" and switched it back because I got the same error! If you can send me what you posted I'll see what I did wrong. Thanks Again

<You have to capitalize the 1st letters of the words "ArchivedGame"-->
(take out the asterisks when you add it)
<*a href=/game/ArchivedGame?g=98589*>Game 98589<*/a>

And if you have space at the bottom of your screen, when you put the mouse arrow on top of the "click here" part of the screen, the tag will show up on the bottom left hand side of your screen.
98589

Thanks, I didn't have "ArchivedGame" capitalized!

Gothic Inventor taught me that! :)

I think a good way to show the popularity of Gothic Chess is too look at how many players are rated - which Gothic ranks 3rd (provisional) behind regular Chess & Atomic Chess.... but then again, Gothic has not been around as long as Atomic either.... so I'm sure that will soon change.

yes, but this count includes the rubbish from the IHateDano - IHateGothicInventor period. maybe a cleanup is called for? it's been done on the other boards

Yesterday I got to share some GC joy by playing a longtime chessplayer 4 games of Gothic Chess, OTB.

He is a sharp thinker by nature, and has been playing chess for 15 years. He played in high school and college, in the military and his police force also has a "team" whereby they play each other and across precincts. No novice to the standard game, we played a couple of tough games which I had the good fortune of winning. I showed him a couple games of FischerRandom to level the field a bit--I won one with Black, and so did he--and then I offered to show him something new.

We played 4 games of Gothic Chess, and the first 3 he traded off the Gothic pieces, to his disfavor. The 4th he kept them on the board, and we had such a powerful game (for our abilities, of course). The end came to pass with me holding my Chancellor and Queen against his Rook and Archbishop. Had he chosen not to attack, I would have had a time prying him out of his "pawn cloud" he spread quite creatively on his queenside. His king ran inside of it as one would a forest. :)

I pried him out of his safe zone after he tried to attack me. After this last game, he talked and talked about how powerful my Chancellor showed himself to be after some enjoyable attacks on my part, and corralled him out of his safe area.

He wants to play again next Friday.

Thank you for the kind offer.

You did a great job, sir, and you are absolutely right--longtime chessplayers are very intrigued with the gameplay, the actual age of the pieces, and their history. It takes their understanding to new levels, and they cannot contest the logic of the pieces. 3 & 3, singular and dual powers, already hinted at in the use of the Rook-Bishop. Or "queen", if you wish. :D

I'll let him know about your offer.

The idea to play fast,that means "live" with,for instance 15,30 or 60 minutes for the whole game,surely is a good idea.But it should be a separate category of rated games,because it is a big difference if you play correspondence chess - turn-based - with a long time limit using all possible resources or if you play live (like otb-games) with a real short time limit.
One possibility to play live on the internet(without a server) could be a small freeware from Germany called MAX (Misc./download).
Until yet you can play chess,janus,checkers,reversi,go and perhaps can I ask the author to add also "Gothic chess"?

The idea to play "livegames" with we say 60 minutes for the whole game,would be a good supplement to our turnbased-games here.
One possibility to play "live" Janusgames on the internet (without a server) could be a small freeware from Germany called MAX (Misc./download).
If everybody wants to play such a live match with me please send me a pm.

I will try it,or you can send him a mail yourself.His name is Uwe Auerswald and you can see, his programs are mostly in English too.But because it is freeware and he creates his programs only uncommercial it will take a while.But I have seen he adds new games from time to time in the new versions.

The graphics of the chesspieces could be a little bit better.The email is u.auerswald@mailchess.de.
I have found it in a feedbackformular.

Nice attack..:)

Points on April 14, 2004:

1.GC:Enter The Vortex—can we set up a chess team and show the standard players how well we do at the standard variation?

2. Look at Gothic Chess King of the Hill2--it began April 11th. Already things are heating up!

3.OOOhh, Fight! One BKR point separates the two warriors. Look in and see what is happening after the 29th move—it is a tight squeeze. Strydor v HerculesBeast

--at 29.h3xg4, we have Black to move and
*FEN b]5R4/PPKNC4P/3P1A1PP1/3PP5/2a1p5/2p1cp1pp1/pp1n5p/1k4r3.

4. We have here another reason why GothicChess is the Kendo of MindSports!

--Tangram (BKR1988) v Taikoki (BKR1442), Mar 6-20th, 38 moves, white resigns, 0-1!

Well played by our chessfriends, but the plan’s the thing!

New players bring new attacks, new priorities, new strategies.

Once GothicInventor said that if Capablanca had gotten the backfile right, we would perhaps be calling Gothic Chessà”Chess”, and I hope he is right someday! Great games.

I did. How you pulled his king out so early...nice.

Don't pull out the White Shark's teeth so quickly--how will he eat?
(:D)

For those who like real-time action with instant updates of the board...

http://www.mailchess.de/netgame07b_setup.exe

Download this, install it, then select the FILE menu, NEW GAME, then pick Gothic Chess from the radio buttons.

Under the SETTINGS menu, select PIECES, then GOTHIC CHESS PIECES, and you are ready to play a live game against someone over the internet without needing a server!

You will have to configure your settings by adding your IP address into a field, but the program will help you get your IP address.

Then you can wait for connections to accept games with you.

Maybe all who have successfully installed it can post what times they will be online looking for games, as well as their IP addresses.

Hey Everybody,

Ed and I played real time Gothic Chess!!! It works and is very easy to setup!!

Ed of course won...but it was battle with him having 3 seconds left on his clock.

You can change the color of the squares and the font of the game list! Set the clock for any time one wishes to play, and also save the game when your finished, which we forgot to do!

You and your opponent should agree on the time controls 1st because there is no way to change it after other than playing another game in the process. Also, you should give your opponent your IP Address before you start if you are the one hosting the game...IP's change everytime you disconnect from the internet so just keep that in mind when playing!
So have fun and start playing!!

Yeah, Rob left out one very important point. In his game with White using The Quagga opening, he had a vastly superior position after my "flash in the pan" tactic to win a Chancellor for Archbishop after sacing a Bishop for a pair of pawns ended up fizzling out!

I played strategically, content with my false sense of security (plus I was happy that George Ross, the man sitting next to Donald Trump on The Apprentice, called me this evening and left a message for me to call him back! As Rob call tell you, I play best when I am in a bad mood.) Rob systematically got his Archbishop and pair of Knights right in the face of my King, and I was in real trouble (a mate in 3 awaited me if I miscued).

Anyway, that's my version of the events.


But he is right, this little program is cool.

Thanks to Cassius for giving me the programmer's email address.

Just throwing a question out there. Do you think that computer programs should be used while playing other people, on BK or in general?
I personally don't use the new Gothic Vortex engine, or any of the other engines out there, to analyze my ongoing games. I'll use it to analyze my finished games whenever I can remember to download it (sorry Ed, moving has been tough. I'll get around to ordering your wonderful program sometime this week). One reason I stopped playing on the Internet Chess Club site is because I'm convinced that, with longer time controls, people were using computers to help them as they played. I like the idea of playing mano a mano.
I do realize that this is a correspondence site and that the rules for this type of play are a little more lenient but I'm still not comfortable accepting help from anyone or anything (i.e. computer programs) while I'm playing.
I'd love it if some of you would weigh in on this issue and either support my objection to using them or set my thinking straight.

Hello Greenknight,

I am probably the only person on the planet with wins against the world's strongest checkers computer (Chinook) and the world's strongest chess computer (Deep Thought) so I think I am uniquely qualified to speak on this subject.

First, while programs trounce us soundly at tournament time controls or quicker (I think there are 3 programs over 3100 at bullet and blitz now) the opposite is true of longer time controls.

When I play Vortex at the rate of 1 hour per move for both of us (while I am doing other work, I just periodically glance at it and move after mulling over to what to do) I am 11-0 with 0 draws. At time controls of 3 seconds per move each, I am about 15-70 with maybe 2 or 3 draws!

Look at some of my games. There is no program on the planet that would make some of my moves. Take a look at Ed vs. Shark for example. Throwing away a Chancellor for Archbishop is "intuitive" for a human player, but totally beyond the domain of the program. At the move shown, I throw away a knight, while already down C for A, and there is no immediate regain of material!

As for programs being used on the internet and elsewhere: if a rule cannot be enforced, it really isn't a rule at all, so just beware of the fact that others are out there consulting with software.

And for checkers, you might think with all of the FREE strong checkers programs out there, honest players would never be able to win a game on here.

I like to throw away a checker, then play most of the game "down a man", only to befuddle my opponents, who may or may not be using software. Sooner or later their greed (keeping my "gift" too long) causes their demise. Look over some of my most recent checker games against the strong players, and you will see what I mean.

Again, no program on the planet can see through the complications that the human mind understands at a glance.

I would say, rise up to the challenge, and dare players to use software against you, then kick their butts by being strategic when they try to be tactical.

You will win every game.

Trust me on this one, I know what I am talking about :)

if you are "the only person on the planet with wins against the world's strongest checkers computer" does that mean you are the checkers world champ?

Ed beats Deep Thought in 1989

Ed beats Chinook in 1996

Read what I wrote LongJohn. I do not know of anyone else who beat Deep Thought that has also won against the Chinook checkers program.

Can you name anyone or show supporting documentation?

Did I claim to be the World Checker Champion?

No, I did not.

No need to reply, I will not respond.

Thanks for the input Ed! I guess the "if a rule cannot be enforced, it really isn't a rule at all" comment set my mind straight on that issue. I'm also glad to see that you have trouble agains Vortex at the faster time controls. I was beginning to get frustrated with it!

The discussion about using computers in internet chess we sometimes have had on other chessservers.
The difference is,if you play "livechess" (the same like otb-games) for instance at ICC,USCL or Playchess.com,you play only one game at the same time,mostly fast-3 or 5 minutes- and the using of helps is forbidden.The servers can sometimes control it.At playchess.com (Fritzserver) they have a running software,which disqualifies cheaters automatically and every day you can see sometimes such a message in the display : "disqualified because of using chess software".In addition there is a "machine room",in where you can play as "centaur" (=human-machine).

An other fact is at turn based servers.Here we play like correspondence chess,many games simultaneously with long times and both players must not be online at the same time! And in correspondence chess, there are no prohibitions to use helps, advices,computers,books or other things.Neither the "International Correspondence Chess Federation" (ICCF) prohibits something nor the special Brainking rules.And also this wouldn`t make sense,if you cannot control it really.And that`s why all the worlds topplayers in correspondence chess are playing with all helps they can have.:
In the past only with books and common analyzing in the chessclubs,today additionally with computers and big databases.
It is perhaps not a very good evolution for the correspondence chess.It is now "centaur chess", but it is not cheating!
In "Gothic chess" I see there no problems, because the programs are much weaker at the moment as the strong chess programs (like Fritz,Chessmaster,Shredder).The best is if you analyze mainly for yourself.(excuse my bad English)

Thanks, Caissus. One of the reasons I made the switch to Gothic was the lack of strong programs, "uncharted territory" if you will. I don't like the idea of "centaur chess" (although the expression is excellent) and can't wait until we get a full "live gothic chess" site (with a ranking system) that will have otb rules that will prohibit "centaurs" from playing.
However, if anyone wants to use a computer program while playing me here I have no problem with that. You are absolutely right, it isn't prohibited so it isn't cheating. Thanks for the input.

Interesting debate ... I would hope that if I play others using computers that they would tell me before we started.

That is one reason I play atomic chess a lot (although one person has fessed up about using a program near the end of our game, fortunately I beat him :) ... I also play tank battles and tablut for the same reason although I wonder if Ughaibu is not a human computer anyway.

The other reason I play atomic chess is it gives me a chance to be competative at a reasonable level without chess being my life's work or only passion. No offence meant Ed + Caissus + others ... you guys are a long way ahead of where I will ever be. I am but a simple man at heart :)

I like the suggestion from WhisperzQ that people tell you whether they are using a computer or not to analyze during games. As I said before, I don't mind if people are using programs while playing me because it's legal here at BK. However, it would be nice to know if I'm playing a "centaur" or just a person.

I would like to try using a checkers program against GI and see if he really can give me one piece advantage near the start and then still beat the program. To me, if someone has that ability, that is totally astounding and if I saw it with my own eyes, I would be in awe.
Does anyone know where you can get a free checkers proggy to use?

We are glad you are here, WhisperzQ--to play is most of the point of being here. Ed and Rob and Uwe are fantastic, and their sharp play makes us all sharper by exposure; those with lesser power bring other things to the table instead. Both inputs are important. Keep playing.

As for the computer question, insight is more powerful than the calculation. Man the toolmaker can program the algorithm, but the machine cannot program itself, or program insight. The human machine is outfront. I read an op-ed article in Chess Life that machines calculate in chess faster than a chessplayer; in the same vein, a motorboat moves faster through the water than a swimmer, and a forklift can lift more than a weightlifter. But none of the machines initiate any effort to play or to win--they only do what they are programmed or designed to do, and then only when they are told to do so. Sweep the pieces off the board in a rage against the machine, and the computer does not feel any anger towards you; it doesn't care.

You keep playing, and enjoy your games. Those for whom machines are a crutch, will hang themselves on their own ropes. Correspondence chess is a powerful thing.