SL-Bosse: I would prefer group play. At least I get to play a few games instead of just one. The 3 day limit with vacations seems fair. I am ok with any variant .

i never could understand that setting either!

Tian-Xian: I couldn't agree more!

I had lost in a tornament & asked Fencer but got no reply & so am stuck waiting for tournie to finish. I think it should be automatic that if you are out of a tournie you can join another.

SL-Bosse: small fast please?

OK so lets start a new tournament with 3-days limit and normal vaccation. Should it be round-robin/groups or elimination? Which type of game should we start with?

Nothingness: I agree with you.
I usually make more than 1 move per day, but sometimes it may happen to lose some days or even 1 week.
On IYT you can change your time limit, but only out of a tournament: this is one of the reasons that made the League successful.
I believe a 3-days limit with vacations on may work: the game would be fast enough and you can avoid problems depending on weekend days or holidays.
I think this is a good compromise for the first "gran slam" tournaments.

Several months ago I invited to a game all the high rated players I could see. To my suprise all gladly accepeted my challenge!. Many of these turned out to be very educational and I believe will make me a better player. Most of these good games lasted over two months. I currenty have a game , played at what I consider a reasonable pace, that has lasted over 5 months. Good game too. I would hate to have such a game in progress only to have one player time out.
I realize that a tournament may last for a long time, however I prefer completed games instead of games decided on a time limit or deadline for the game.

The time limit issue was exclusive to IYT. The main reason for changing time limits was to avoid time out when an emergency arrived. For example there are situations in many games where i would move 5-6 times a day then take as many as 6 days for one move. With most fischer clock settings i will have timed out after going 6 days without moving. To optimize peak performance you cannot restrict time limits on moves. so our time limits would go from 3 days ( standard) to 7 days for emergencies. then we would change it back when the week ended or your leave was over!

AbigailII: Sounds like it. I wish Fencer would *** *** **** *** ** *** *** and implement something like that here.

Thad: Littlegolem has a time pace which I finds the most ideal of all the time paces I've encountered on the various games sites I have played on. Each game you start with 240 hours. After you move, you get 36 hours added to your clock, and if you then exceed 240 hours, the clock is set to 240 hours. You have 20 vacation days a year. If you time out on a game, and you have vacation days left, you get 24 hours added to the clocks on *all* your game, one day is subtracted from your pool of vacation days. You can exceed 240 hours this way, but only until you move. After a move, the time is capped at 240 hours. There are no weekends. No system holidays. No abuse. No buying of more vacation days. Noone is able to drag out a tournament, other than playing long games and moving once every 36 hours. IMO, except for a yearly lump of vacation days (I'd rather see 2 days/month added to the pool, with the pool maxed at 24 days), an ideal pace.

AbigailII: 30/2/30 would give you what you want, but then I'd be stuck in a tournament that could take quite a while. I don't think there's a common ground. The suggestion for more than one tournament with different time settings is probably the best solution.

Thad: Yes, but I'd lose the game if it's a game from the next round of a tournament that starts 4 days before I return from vacation, wouldn't I? While I can control my own pace to a certain extend, I cannot control the pace of others. Which makes a Fischer clock too dangerous for my liking.

AbigailII: Have you tried something like 3/2/30? You'd start with three days to play the game, but every time you made a move, you'd add two days to that total. Assuming you made a move every day for a while, you'd build up extra time up to the max of 30 days. Then you could take a long vacation.

Nothingness: I don't think we ever had the ability to change time pace on BK (and certainly not in tournament games). I like Fisher clocks. I used to play on FICS, and I always use the Fisher clock. Little golem uses a Fisher clock as well. Yet, I never play games with the Fisher clock on BK. Because here on BK, Fisher clock implies no vacation days. And I know that during the year I will go on vacation. And there's no garantee at all a game or match doesn't last half a year. Or that a next round of a tournament doesn't start during, or right before my vacation.

Would BK have time pace of Fisher clock with vacation days, I'd never use the regular clock again.

This can be problematic and I timed out using this and i was making multiple moves per day and still timed out even though the game was well in hand. If we can tweak the clock that would be great but we used to have the ability to change the time in mid match to avoid unforseen emergencies. So if i was moving fast then i knew i could not make a move for the next 6 days i would not lose my game. Max time for a game NEVER! Many games can last many months making 2-3 moves per person per day. i think we used to have a 3 day limit with the ability to change it to 7days when an emergency arrived then we would change it back when we got back.

Chaos: I can totally understand how you wouldn't want a max time for the whole game, but I feel the exact opposite!

AbigailII: Indeed I don't want a maximum time for the total game, that was exactly what I was afraid of.

Chaos: You could create such a maximum by setting the increment field to 0. (Then the Fisher clock reduces to a "normal" chess clock).

IMO, such a move pace is totally out of place in BK - unless players play at the same times, it's very likely to give one player a huge advantage clock wise. (Say you always play between 12AM and 9PM, dedicating 9 hours a day playing BK. I only play 10 minutes a day, from 10PM till 10:10PM (time adjusted to your timezone). You will then have a serious risk of losing our game on time, while I will not. Simply because there will be 14 hours between my move and your first opportunity to move, and only 10 hours between your move and my move. I will gain 4 hours/move on the clock - even if you are a much more dedicated player than I am).

Chaos: You can set Fisher's clock to e.g. 25/0/25 what means no added time, just 25 days for both players, but it means bigger problems wit time zones.

And for pawns I would rather recommended round robin - more games in one tournament

Thad: Isn't there a maximim time for the total game as well with the Fisher's clock?

Friends: You can get past the issues you have with Fischer's clock settings by adjusting the bonus you get for each move. For example, if the settings are 7/1/7, then you get an extra day each time you make a move, so you'll always have at least one day to make your move, regardless of how quickly your opponent moves.

I like the suggestion of some fast and some slow paced tourneys. One size probably won't fit all here and there's no reason to try and force that. ;-)

dAGGER: Maybe we can choose some events with long time limit and some other with short limit.

And if you become a member, you can actually make tournaments yourself.

Please remember what is my aim: recruiting more and more people for espionage tourneys.
Maybe we can choose some events with long time limit and some other with short limit.
We will see which is more successful.

OK, I found the answer myself here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer_clock

This is not for me, as I play slowly.
I always support 5 days with vacations on.

Thad:
what is the fisher clock?

Thad: I'm not at all happy with Fisher's clock. If you're in a different timezone, and you can't avoid a long time after the last move of the other player, you lose b/c of timeouts all the time. Happened to me just too often, and I do play fast!

Please sign up -> 11000 :D & 1700 ;) (single elimination for 8 with immediately start)
Fischer's clock 3/0.8/15

Still available:
# Espionage (4 - open)
# Small Espionage (5 - open)
# Fast Espionage (6 - open)
# Open Fast Espionage (5 - open)
&
# Espionage (6 - open)
# Small Espionage (6 - open)
# Small Fast Espionage (5 - open)
# Open Fast Espionage (5 - open)

SL-Bosse: I STRONGLY recommend that you use the Fischer clock. It might be a bit more of a challenge to get the right settings for espionage than for other games, but it really hleps keep the tournaments from dragging on and on and on.

dAGGER: My proposal is a first tournamnet in "Small Fast Espionage" with 2 days thinkingtime. Round Robin with 4 players in each group

dAGGER: Good idea :) I'm starting to play more seriously again as well, so let the tourneys begin!

The only downside is that pawns can only enter 1 tourney and have to wait till the whole torueny is over to start a new one...

I propose to choose (or create) one tournament a month as a sort of "Gran Slam Tournament", as it was in IYT.
All people reading this messageboard would like entering these tourneys and it would be easier to advertise them and recruiting more and more players week after week.
I kindly ask your feedback about time limit, kind of tourney (elimination, round robin, etc.), espionage variants.
Our aim should be finding more and more people joining tourneys.

SL-Bosse:
that link contains useful information about the beginning of the game and the importance of general 2 vs spy (or recon).
I believe it may be helpful for new players here in BK.
It would be great to keep this link up, even if the old League does not exist anymore.

SL-Bosse: Yes, Saboteur once had a pages with hints and tips for the game at, but he didn't keep it up and it expired...

Nothingness: you are right

SL-Bosse:
I remember about the pages speaking about tactics.
Are these pages still active?
Is there anyone who can remind us the link?

I also think that if you are a Pawn you cannot join a fellowship?> is this still true?

Chaos: Oh, I know I could look in the move history, make notes and such. But that is too much work for me. BK could also decide to not show chess boards anymore, afterall "there's the move history". I'll stop playing chess here if the board will disappear.

There are many, many other games (here and at other sites) to be played that don't involve the work that Espionage requires. So Espionage loses, and I don't play it here.

SL-Bosse: Thats true, but if pawn will finish all his games and he is not able to advance to next round, he can contact Fencer and he will remove him from tournament and pawn can join another tournament.

AbigailII: You can find the game history on the right side of the board, so you can always look back. In espionage good players make notes for themselves so they know which pieces have been identified by the opponent. This is possible here at BK as well. The game doesn't have to last long if you play frequently, do try small fast espionage! I hope we'll get you into an espionage enthousiast! :)

I find it hard to find the tournaments with good espionage opponents. But also I must admit that my playing level isn't that good anymore, b/c I tend to paly to fast and make too few notes, or forget to make them, so I make fatal errors.

AbigailII: I agree that to play at a high level requires improvements to the BK interface. I'm sure that keeps many players from playing (or playing more games) here. I know that limits my playing. I end up playing other games more.

One suggestion is to cater to the beginners. Make some tournaments for them. Offer to hlep them become better players and make them feel part of the community. A few of them will get hooked and become good players.

Nothingness: Game length in itself doesn't mean much. Many Anti-Backgammon games last over 200 or even 300 moves as well, yet there have been more Anti-Backgammon games than all the Espionage variant games combined.

I've only played a few Espionage games (not even enough to own any BKR). The main reason I don't play it is the BK is a turn based website, where games can easily take months or years to finish. This is fine if the board reveals all information needed to play the game - that is, history isn't important. This is not the case with any of Espionage variants, which makes me not to want to play it.

Espionage is a far more complex game than 99% of the games on here. Many more variables then even chess. This makes finding new players very difficult b/c it alienates many people who are unwilling to learn such a vastly complicated game. when you can just roll a few dice or finish a game of checkers in a few turns. Many Elite level Espionage/Sabotage games have been know to last well over the 200-300 move plateau far more than most chess games will ever last. The game was a top 3 game on IYT. this is a much different following than on IYT and it will take some work here on BK until it gets to the level that it was on IYT. We just have to stay vigilant.

dAGGER: I think you can safely assume the majority of the players are aware tournaments exist, that they can sign up, and furthermore, that there are boards for each (group of) games.

I also think there the number of different people posting on boards is much smaller than the number of players - no doubt many player don't read (all) the boards because they just want to play, not read or post.

I think you have to face the possibility that Espionage just isn't that popular. Just over 13 thousand games have been played - counting all five variants together. That's less than a far more recent game like Knight Fight, which, without the benefits of variants, has more than 18.5 thousand finished games. And it's utterly dwarved by the number of Backgammon matches whose count stands as of this moment at 861957, 65 times as many as all the Espionage variants.

How can I write a link to this board in my messages during a game?

Nothingness:
I remember the Tourny you created some weeks ago: there were only 5 players signed up.
How can we find more people playing Espionage and potentially joining large tourneys?
Does everyone know about this message board?
If everyone reading this board speaks about it with all opponents, I believe it would be the best advertising.

dAGGER: I can create any tourney you would like. i tried to create an 8 player tourney and could not fill the 8 spots. the potential tourney also died after only a few weeks. Most of the IYT players are gone i fear. It seems that only the cream of the crop stuck around. Lightning bolt is jonaron as many know. and a few others are hear on a very limited basis. I did pay for a Lifetime membership and i put the other up a prize and they are in the finals as of right now. i hope that the game grows stronger. hopefully when the world is out of the economic bubble everyone will comeback.

Hallo to every Espionage players.
Not many of you know about me, because I play slowly and I have few games going on.
I came to BK some months ago coming from Its Your Turn.
I like this site much more, because there are more interesting features, such as ratings and statistics.
Unfortunately, here it is harder to find Espionage players.
Some weeks ago I posted an invitation in the waiting games and I ritired it after 20 days!
Most tournaments with long time limit have no signings for Espionage and its variants.
Can someone halp me in finding good tournaments with 5 or 7 days limit?