Andersp:

Purple and Walter: ..little i know about

Andersp: Er, ah, I thought it was full of engines, machines, and programs now? No?

Andersp: It already is.

Andersp: I'd be willing to bet there's already some on the market now. Lots of programs play lots of games. Even this Windows© machine that I use came with a few games. Somewhere around here I have two game programs ChessMaster5500 and EA Bridge. That fact that I can't beat the ChessMaster5500 is one of the reason I don't play Chess on this site. Not much use in it is there? And it's an older version. I imagine their newest version is really strong and fast compared to the one I have. The Bridge playing program is disappointing because it plays so poorly! Apparently games that require deduction, bluff, and intuition are a lot harder to program than games that have perfect information in them as Chess does. I have read in magazines that current Bridge playing programs have greatly improved their play and features since the one that I own was released. As for Backgammon, I wouldn't bother making one on your own. It won't play all that much better than a decent player even it played the game perfectly. It'd take a long time to show that it played better than you do. You ought to take up Dark Chess. As far as I know there aren't any programs in use for making the moves, plus the game cannot be watched by an outsider until the game is over. And even if your opponent gave his password to a friend to help him make a move, his friend would only see your opponent's side of the board and he'd be in the same boat as your original opponent. The game has a little luck to it and a weaker player actually has a chance against a strong player which is never the case in regular Chess.

One thing this whole argument seems to have missed is the fact that none of us are directly playing a person. We're all using machines to play the games with. Just wait until the programs can make conversation too. :(

Sumerian: Vielleicht sollen wir Deutch sprechen? kidding :) Dont misunderstand me please..i told you that you absolutely should test your engine..BUT,,isnt there a risk that BK soon is full of "engines" if Fencer allows one?

Andersp: Maybe my understanding of English is poor, I am from Old Germany. Seeing you being that engaged discussing using an 8x8 and 10x8 chess engine, you did not gave that impression to me. And if you vice versa would be willing to think my arguments over, you will easyly come to the conclusion, that there will be a big difference in using self written engines or external know how.

Walter Montego: I dont know...maybe i chould create one

Andersp: Even one that plays Backgammon?

Sumerian: LOL..Is my english so poor. You have missed my point completely.
So again...IF Fencer says OK to this engine i suppose he has to say OK to all "followers".
Think i said somewhere that i am no chessplayer so i havent signed up for the tourney you link to..but im sure there can be engines in other games too and i can tell you that IF i know that i play a computer then i would resign the game at once.

Andersp: If you would like to participate in tournaments without Smirf present, why did you not have entered in the European Chess960 Quick Motivation Tournament http://brainking.com/game/Tournaments?trg=7146&tri=29371&trnst=0 , where I offer to the winner a Chess960 book I have written myself?

I would love to play against Smirf in a Halma 8x8 prize tournament.
A couple of people I play against now are just like computers.

Andersp: Of course that goes without saying. The pressure coming from here however is quite another thing. The pressure is "don't tell." He is getting that message loud and clear. Once it was done I think "telling" was the noble thing to do.

Purple: Its ALWAYS good to be honest..and NEVER good to cheat :)

Andersp: No. It is BETTER than cheating and not telling. That concept is not rocket science.

Sumerian: Correct..i have no clue how it works...but if you really want to test it why dont you invite Trice to a 5 win game instead of testing it in a prize tourney?

Andersp: LMAO@Anders

Andersp: It seems to me that you have no idea how I am changing and improving the beta during a game, reacting on experiences. But that is indeed irrelevant. I would suggest to change your view on the opponent, see the engine instead of its operator / programmer, and notify its strictly limited use of persistant data. (It is a 48K engine only, no opening library, no table bases).

Purple: Conclusion..as long as you tell the world that you cheat it is ok..right Purple?

This is crazy. The man is honest and you condemn him. What is going to happen now when the next honest man thinks about stepping forward? All you are doing is pushing it into the closet because somehow that makes you more comfortable. I say wake up. And BTW I am used to being alone in my views. That doesn't change them.

Sumerian: As far as i know is Ed Trice the #1 rated in Gotic Chess. Do you (Smirf) win against him?

if the oponent actually knows this...
you keep saying the tourny runner knows..but thats diferent

Sumerian: Does it really matter if you or someone else created the engine? When you sit there and let the engine do the job..all you have to do is click a button (i guess) while your opponent has to "wrinkle his brain" for each move.
Doesnt seem fair to me.

to Andersp: If you have written your own engine, proof that fact, and make its usage transparent - where should be the problem, when only playing when being invited (where the opponent has seen your profile page) or after asking him, whether he would like to play against an engine.
to BrainKing04: Smirf is not an outside program. It is my own intellectual property. And if you are convinced that I should be banned from here, you have to initiate the appropriate steps.

Game Guidelines:

1. NO CHEATING. This includes using outside programs to help play and losing on purpose for the goal of boosting ratings. Your account may be banned, and ratings will be removed.

Sumerian: But you must see my point?..If Fencer approves your engine he has to say 'OK" to mine too...if was smart enough to create one :)

Andersp: well it is not at all fun, that those who frankly give information on using self written engines will be accused here, whereas a remote using of foreign programs is no theme at all. The problem seems to be that the truth is destructing some illusions, but I cannot change reality by denying it.

Sumerian: If im not wrong you (Smirf) have already won $25. Im no chessplayer so i dont suffer
but if an engine is allowed in one tourney i guess Fencer has to allow them in other games too...is that fun?

Andersp: Smirf will have big difficulties to be victorious there, on what I am in doubt. Moreover it has not been me who initially asked to participate. Instead the tournament creator repeatedly encouraged me to participate, explicitly allowing the use of Smirf. It seems to be of a special interest for him to watch it play there, which I of course can understand. I think it is the genuine right of a tournament's creator to decide who should be accepted as a participant in such an event.

Sumerian: Of course you should test your "product" but to test it in a prizetourney..hmmmm?...well enjoy the money :)

Andersp: everybody has the right to give his experiences an appropriate form. But there is a huge difference in using a self written engine or relying on the intellectual properties of others.

Cheaters only fool themselves...how can anyone think its fun to win and know he has cheated?..The defense "He has created the programme himself" is not so smart imo(apologizes to you who said it) A "robot" is a robot doesnt matter if Bill Gates/Ed Trice or whoever created it. If this "robot" is allowed then i think Fencer has a problem..then any kind of cheating must be allowed..right?

Immortality is important too, but we can't achieve it. So we should not care ot think about it..........

Same here: as nobody can't prove or prevent cheating, it's not important.........

is an important point and should not be " off topic" everywhere!

Sumerian clearly states he is using a computer! He is sincere enough to do it. He could use one without saying nothing. But he didn't do that. And instead of giving him some credit for it we criticize him for admitting it.....? Not very logical...............It would be better if he hasn't accepted it?

-------------------------------
Redsales:
But I just wanted you to know that was one reason I was not interested in entering the tournament, because I did not come here to play machines. Good luck, I will be interested to see if you win.

Relax. Smirf is not so invincible right now, so you should not feel so scared about playing against it. It's beatable, believe me. Of course this is not the point you will clearly say! The point is you just want to play against humans and not machines. But the question is why.........? Why not playing against a beta engine and helping his creator to improve it? Why not enjoying the game the same......? I don't see any reason for this.
And Sumerian clearly states that he is using Smirf! It's not a secret...... He could use it without refering that he does but NO. He was very sincere and he faces that reaction from us.........?!?!?

------------------------------
Sumeriam:
It seems to play more like a human being, and my opponents hardly were able to distinguish whether I or Smirf have been playing.

In our 3 games we played i could clearly distinguish that i played with a computer engine.

In our first game with Smirf as white, Smirf played rather good the opening (except 7.Bg2) so i can guess that either i'm facing a program or a good human. But after the 18.Rh1? i would easy remove the good human so i would be sure that i was playing Smirf. And after my Nxc4! i would be sure, as the opponent hasn't lost his way in the tactic area and not only this but played the best moves. One strange thing though, was that although the position was lost you can't expect from a computer to play Rxg3 giving me a mate............

In our second game with Smirf as black, it would indeed be very difficult to decide if i was facing a computer. The 12...Bg7! was a nice tactical move that only gives an indication. But the bad 17...Bxi3? showing it doesn't understand the position and that it is actually lost after this (in fact this is very difficult for a computer to see that it's losing as my attack is far away from its horizon), gives an even better indication of a computer. And since before being mated, played the best possible defence (38...Re8, 39...Nd6) i could assume that i play against a computer..........

And in our third game here, after my anti-comp 9.Ah2(since i knew that i'm playing a computer) the 9...Bxj2? shows that my opponent is either a materialistic computer or a not so good human........ But after 9...Bxj2? my opponent played the best moves to avoid the inevitable. So the option of a not so strong human is not true. In fact it played the best moves possible presing my King too much, but the position was lost anyway as i had a material advantage after 9...Bxj2? and my defence proved too strong. So i was playing against a computer.

So with just 3 games i would 100% be sure, that i was playing with a computer. If from the last time we played Smirf has changed so much then the above will not happen again......

But what is the amazing thing, is that a 48 KiB program is able to play all these kind of different variants (among them Chess and Gothic Chess) and it's able to make people frightened about its playing strength. I would like to express my huge admiration for your accomplishment: SMIRF! I'm thrilled by the fact that such a small code can do so much............

------------------------------
Reza I am here mostly to just have fun.

Don't you think that the above and the discussion about Smirf you started are
contradictory........?

Pitty Mr. Trice isn't here to tell us why he has agreed to let Sumerian play in the tourny. In fact since he is the one who wants to spend the $500, it's OK if he wants to give it to Sumerian

Sumerian is not the winner. He is a participant and he may win or he may not win. And why Ed Trice should not have accepted Sumerian.......? Because he is using a computer? So what....? Since you can't clearly prove that others don't use one, you can't say anything against Sumerian.............And in fact he refers that he is using one in his profile so it's not a secret at all! And again what you prefer? Player-X that he admits he uses a program or player-X that he uses a computer but he don't admits it..........? And the most important thing is that he doen't use smirf in order to have an astonishing BKR or no loses etc... but to experiment with it..............

-------------------------------
Czuch Chuckers
I think Ed Trice only put up that prize because he knows his cheating machine is better than anyone elses. He doesnt plan on paying that prize to anyone but himself.

Just to let you know(you know it right now), Ed Trice isn't participating in this tournament.........So before posting anything without knowing for sure, just put the word "i think" or just ask.........! (Don't feel offended by my notes.....)

The "problem" is that your profile isn't compulsory reading. I suggest something like a news page on which statements such as that on your profile can be posted as public declarations.

Well, there are some purists who want me leave this site. The world seems to be ok for those if all would tell them those things they want to hear, and don't tell them those they don't want.

But by that you do not create a reality but establisch an agreement to further believe in an illusion. Reality will vanish if you make it a problem to tell the truth. The sun will not take an orbit round the earth if you insist that earth should be the unmoved center of the universe.

P.S.: Think it over: the problem has not been that I am using a SELF written engine sometimes, but that I have documented this at my profile frankly. Those which are using programs written by OTHERS secretly instead do not cause a problem.

you would be wrong ;)

I'd say almost everything is impossible.

ughaibu: LOL, nothing is impossible Ug!

Selective memory.

hy do always get doubles in anti backgammon and hardly ever in regular gammon?

Fencer has said that it is not possible, as he designed the site I trust that statement.

Right thats the crux of the problem. Even if you make it ok to use a program as long as you tell people, what is to keep someone from using them without telling???? The only solution is to allow them and assume they are being used in every game, and plaY OTB ELSWHERE IF YOU WANT A GAME that doesnt use programs.

ughaibu: I hope they wouldnt waste their time, I was just pointing out tha it is possible thats all :)

What's the difference? If people are dishonestly using programs now how will changing the UA persuade them to be honest? The point of dishonesty is to get an unfair advantage.

I must have been typing as you posted, reza!

Czuch Chuckers: You may have a point there, Czuch. Would it solve any problems if programmes are allowed, but only when stated before a game (or tourney) starts that they are being used? Or would it be better to have a flat, no programmes allowed?

ughaibu:

Czuch Chuckers: Exactly our point. If this can be included in the user agreement that all using a program MUST admit it, then you can fearlessly brows the profiles for those who haven't admitted anything. It's better than alway shaving this in mind that the user against you is using a program. What do others think?