thx Gary Barnes :))

in all fairness, the only time i've played Blaickner (on IYT) she accused me of using a program, so she gives as good as she gets.

Arnie -

I don't know who you think you are! Do you have specific verifiable evidence that Blaickner is cheating? If not, then get the hell off of the discussion board and quit being a sore loser and cry baby.

I don't play Othello/Reversi much and have just now aquired a strategy book for it and may eventually take the game up. But I am the 2-time defending World Email Pente champion and have experienced exactly what you are putting Blaickner through.

I too have run into butts like you who accuse me of using a program or cheating. As a matter of fact, I got so sick of it that I went down to Oklahoma City, Oklahoma and proceeded to kick everyone's butt except DmitriKing whom I tied. This made us both U.S. over-the-board Pente champions. Now everyone can shut up about me using a program. But if I had not had the money to go to Oklahoma City, then people would still be saying the same thing.

The point is, you have NO idea what you're talking about. I don't know Blaickner at all, but she has been VERY good about answering questions and providing information on the board here. Also, it sounds like she is an excellent 1 and/or 5 minute player. If you don't think she is for real, then I would suggest you both find a real-time site where you can play 5 minute games and play a 10-game match. THEN maybe you'll believe that she is for real!


Gary Barnes

lol! cant you take a loss?
i spent 9 years on this game, over 20.000 rated games at igz, countless games when we had a teaching group as "Yo"-players there, rating over 2100 at VOG1, prefered games 1 and 5-min tourneys, ask top players like Göran, Sheepsheep, Tyrant or Marius2J if they know my name :)
since i am on a linux system now i can't play realtime games, there are no austrian championships, and i am far away of tramping to germany or holland to play in an OTB tourney, can hardly afford my internet access at the moment...

blaickner's record Wins 175 Draws 1 Losses 3.
Impressive record from a player whom I have never even heard of but then it is easy to win games by using WZebra, isn't it? I don't recall anyone from Austria ever appearing on the European Rating List in the fifteen or so years I have been playing over the board Othello, let alone any big name players. If Blaickner wants real competition - then why doesn't she join the tournament circuit?

Hi, maybe we should try another variations of Reversi. How about counting all the flips for each player ? The one with most flipped discs
through the whole game will be the winner. This way tactics and strategy will come closer.
What do u think ?
Ondraszek.

I totally agree with you, Gary. Reversi is infact the same game as othello. The "parallell" opening gives a huge disadvantage to the player who moves first (which is white here ).
Top players will never come to this site as long as the following isn't corrected:
1.) Fixed diagonal opening
2.) Black moves first
3.) A1 has to be the upper left corner (letters on the top, number on the sides)

The official championships are played over the board, not online; but it still would be fun to have some real competition in here :)

To all -

My opinion is the same as I have stated on the Small Pente and Small Keryo Pente discussion boards. The correct rules should be used for the 'main' name of the game, i.e. Reversi 6x6 or Reversi 8x8. If you want to NOT have the opening setup (just like not having an opening restriction in Pente), then separate variants called 'No setup Reversi 8x8' or 'No setup Reversi 6x6' should be created.

On the Pente boards, we HAVE the correct opening restriction on the 'main' name of the game, i.e. the CORRECT rules game is simply called Pente (or Small Pente for a smaller board for WebTV users). For the game without an opening restriction, we have recommended 'no-restriction Pente' as a variant. The same applies to Keryo Pente also.

The reasons here is just as Kitti states. Players that are NEW to the game OR the site become confused as to what the correct rules should be. Reversi IS Othello and should be played by the same rules. To me, the colors don't matter because it's a lot easier for a site operator to keep from becoming confused, but several may disagree about that.

IMHO, the opening setup SHOULD be enforced on Reversi 6x6, 8x8, and 10x10. But as I found out by having people hand my head to me, NOT allowing players to play WITHOUT an opening restriction (or setup in this case) is NOT good. So I would suggest separate variants be created for playing without the opening setup. PLEASE know that I DO NOT want to take away anyone's fun here. That is why I am suggesting the separate variants.

Another BIG reason for this is so that LARGE championships can be played at this site in the future. To have large championships (we are wanting the WORLD championships here in Pente), the CORRECT rules must be enforced by a game that is appropriately named. In other words, some people would find it annoying to have Reversi (Othello) championships at a site where the correct rules for the game is in a game called 'Restriction reversi' or 'Setup reversi' or something similar.

IMO, having an OPTION on a single game is NOT good. It mixes the ratings together and can cause LARGE amounts of confusion when entering tournaments because MANY players will NOT be looking for it. Therefore, I believe that separate and appropriately named variants is best.


Gary

IMO it's nice to have two possible opening setups, which increases the number of alternatives. However, I find the way of deciding the opening setup slightly troubling. The problem is that in the first few moves the "correct" diagonal setup is chosen only if _both_ players agree, and _either_ of the players can force the "incorrect" parallel setup.

IMO it would be nicer to have this the other way around (so that either of the players can force the diagonal setup), but unfortunately the way in which the opening setup is "decided" is a natural consequence of the topology of the board, and cannot be changed in any natural way.

As an advocate of versatility I dislike the idea of changing reversi entirely into the normal othello with the fixed diagonal opening setup. IMO the best solution would be an option that when creating a new (instance of a) game or a tournament, the creator could specify whether to use a reversi-style setup with the diagonal/parallel decided by actual play, or create a game/tournament with the fixed diagonal opening setup.

Before coming to Brainking.com, I always thought that othello and reversi are exactly the same game. When I first came to this site I was really confused (and still am) about the set of rules Brainking uses. Since then i've been told several times that they actually are different games and have different rules on the opening game.

In othello the diagonal opening setup is fixed and black goes first. Some say that reversi is different and the rules used here are correct for reversi. I have not seen a official ruleset that would back this up. All of the rulebooks that i've seen explain the official othello rules. Some of them say "othello is also known as reversi" or the other way around. I really would like to see information that would end my confusion about this reversi/othello thing.

I think atleast part of the problem is that Othello is a registered trademark licensed to Mattel Inc. I've played reversi on quite a few sites and this is the only one that does not use the official othello rules. I don't know much about trademarks or licenses. Maybe just calling the game reversi instead of othello is enough to avoid licensing fees even if othello rules are used. I'm confused.

Gary, its player2 who has sure win in 6x6.

Hi Gary, sorry, I dont often read this board which is why I've only just got around to replying!!

My choice of playing 6x6 by the 'wrong' opening moves (side by side pieces rather than diagonal) is precisely because of the advantage white has. As ChessTiger pointed out, white will win evey time in optimal play.
I find that to play with the opening stones slightly different unbalances this advantage white has.
I will play either way, I never demand the opening stones go in this way, and its certainly no guarantee that I will win! But I do find its slightly more fair to the black player.

I've played quite a few more reversi games than pente, so I can say a bit more about this! I dont study 'perfect play' or even my past games! I kind of 'wing it' when it comes to reversi.
But I like the choice, sometimes I go for the diagonal start just for the change. And half the time it obviously depends on where my opponent places their second stone. In other words I have no absolute preference really! How often do you get two 'optimal players' in one game? I'm certainly not a top player, but I do have a chance of winning against a top player if the stones are 'upset' at the start of the game by being side by side. What would be the point of playing a top player, with the diagonal opening, if you knew you were going to lose?!

to see how its done to play perfect at 6x6 have a look at :

www.maths.nott.ac.uk/personal/jff/othello/6x6sol.html

you might also be interested in the official rules which can be read at sites like:

http://www.ugateways.com/bof4.html

and many more othello-related links at

http://bluez2000.tripod.com/OthelloLinks.html

hope this helps you!

katharina blaickner =)

thanks for the explanation...i guess i misunderstood you. I have played reversi many different ways on lots of sites and in person. I know what you mean though about getting the correct variation of the rules..as Pente is on here it is not on other sites for example itsyourturn.com...when i came here and played pente it was totally different. On itsyourturn.com black ALWAYS has the advantage and it is really hard for white to win. I like how it is set up now. I understand what you mean. I really don't know what the offical rules are and you are right that one of the pros should speak up about it, probably to fencer so everyone can get on the same page.

Goofball -

This is not quite what I was after. I did not state that I was dissatisfied with the game due to opening rules because I know too little about it to be dissatisfied or satisfied one way or another.

Let me re-explain as follows:

Request:
That top players speak up about what the CORRECT opening rules for the game are. That way beginning players are aware that they are the official rules and they will learn strategy with the correct rules. It is learning the correct rules that allows FAR more players to compete equally with one another.

I would not request this myself because I do NOT know how OFFICIAL those rules are. I just want to make sure that IF they ARE official and have been decided upon by a large governing body of the game (such as FIDE in Chess) that they are put in place so that everyone in on the same page.

It is NOT my place to request or dictate that the OFFICIAL rules be followed in a game that I don't know much about. It is up to high-level players such as Blaickner and ChessTiger.

Explanation of 'forced win':
In Chess or Pente, when someone says that he wins by force in 3 moves, it means EXACTLY that. By FORCE means that it DOES NOT MATTER how the defense moves. With BEST defense, the offense wins in 3 moves. In Chess, it would be referred to as a 'Mate in 3'.

Further specifics:
I will refer you back to ChessTiger's post from 1/15/03 that stated the following:

"Just thought (in case it is not known) that you might like to know that the 6x6 version of reversi has been solved (assuming optimal play from the opponent.
This is the work Dr Joel Feinstein from University of Nottingham, and former British champion of othello. White wins 20-16 with the diagonal setup, and 19-17 with the horizontal/vertical setup. This is of course when both play optimally!"

What he is stating is amazing but not unprecendented. GoMoku has been proven as a forced win in 24 moves for player 1! THAT is JUST as amazing if not more so.

I will explain what this means in more detail. What Dr. Feinstein has proven is that it doesn't matter HOW black moves, if he plays the VERY BEST defense possible, the best he can do is LOSE 20-16 or 19-17 to white if white plays PERFECT lines. It may sound strange that ANYONE could play PERFECT lines, but as you advance up the ranks and study ANY game, you will quickly be able to see a LARGE portion of the BEST lines as you play games with your opponents, especially in simpler version of the game like the 6x6 version of Reversi.

So to quote your statement, it does NOT depend on how Black moves, white will ALWAYS win AT LEAST 19-17 or 20-16 (depending on the opening setup) on the 6x6 board, IF he plays PERFECTLY.

If this is not clear, try the following:
Play tic-tac-toe on a 9x9 board, but do not change the rules. Both sides must STILL get 3 in a row to win. Now have player 1 play his first move in the center. You will quickly see that he wins in 3 moves, no matter how player 2 moves and it is easy to see PERFECT moves for him. So that is referred to as a forced win in 3 moves by player 1.

Now try the slightly more diffult same thing but make the winner the first to get FOUR in a row. The first player wins by force in 7 moves. Although it's not easy to see PERFECT moves for player 1 at first glance, VERY simple patterns can be demonstrated and shown VERY easily to players of all skill levels.

The same applies to MANY games of skill, albeit on a MUCH more complex level. It's just FAR more difficult to see. But high-level players and mathematicians will sometimes come up with a proof for a game sooner or later like they have done in 6x6 Reversi. What this means is that if you played a 6x6 Reversi playing computer that made PERFECT moves as white and you played black, you would lose 100% of the time, even if you were the BEST Reversi player in the world!

So I hope that clears that up. So what I am asking players such as Blaickner and ChessTiger, is the following:
Is it player 1 or player 2 that wins by force 19-17 or 20-16 in 6x6 Reversi?

I am asking this because I am a 'student' of other games of skill, especially Pente, and am ALWAYS interested in the PROOF of any game.


Thank you,
Gary Barnes

Hi Gary, I do know what you are talking about and understand completely. I do not know the basis or where the rules came from for these versions of reversi. You may want to put this request into the feature request board to give a heads up to Fencer about this. He may have a solution that will make all dissatisfied players happy with the rules of this game.

As far as your question if it is player 1 or 2 that wins by force it totally depends on the moves of the game. I've found with reveri games that have the same rules of the othello board game that sometimes you are still forced to pass and this can sometimes allow the other person to win. The best example i have is like checkers...if say black has one or two pieces left and they are stuck then the games ends in a forefit by black. It is the same thing with the forced move in reversi. It all depends on what moves are played. But as far as changing the beginning rules, you should relay this to Fencer and see what he can do :) :)

Hi all -

I am not a good Reversi (Othello) player, but I AM a VERY good Pente player. In Pente, there has been a HUGE discussion, sometimes VERY heated, about the opening rules (actually a restriction) on the 4 discussion boards there.

It is the opinion of MOST experienced and/or top Pente players in THAT game that the opening rules SHOULD be set up correctly like the official rules to the game. Otherwise beginners that learn the game incorrectly will be at a SEVERE disadvantage when they play someone with the correct opening rules in tournament play.

Based on what I am reading here from top players like Blaickner and by reading the rules in the version of Othello that I have at my home, the diagonal opening setup SHOULD be set and fixed.

It is my personal opinion that it is UNFAIR to beginning players to learn the game incorrectly because they will be resistant to learning it correctly in the future and will learn incorrect attacking strategies.

Interestingly, Harley, who is a beginning Pente player and who has sided with experienced players in Pente because of the official rules of the game, prefers starting with no opening setup in Reversi.

I believe if a couple of you top Reversi players will state MUCH more loudly that the diagonal opening setup is the OFFICIAL rules for the game, then she and perhaps MOST other players including beginners will agree that the diagonal opening setup should be fixed.

THEN if both experienced and beginning players MOSTLY agree that the official rules are the best way to go, then I'm confident that Fencer will make that change.

One suggestion that I might make for everyone's discussion here, whether you be a top player or a beginner. That is to refer to the sides as 'player 1' (the one who makes the first move)or 'player 2' (the one moving 2nd). It is clear by reading the posts here that in serious competition, black always goes first. But on this site, white always goes first in ALL games. I can see why a site owner would do this to prevent his own confusion. Since I have not played the game very much but am VERY experienced in games like Chess and Pente where white always goes first in serious competition, I became confused by several posts that referred to black or white.

I was ESPECIALLY interested to hear that one side wins 19-17 or 20-16 BY FORCE with optimal play by both sides in 6x6 Reversi. Very good piece of work there! But I am confused, it was stated that WHITE wins 20-16 or 19-17. Is that player 1 or player 2? Since black usually starts in Reversi in serious competition, I initially took that to mean that player 2 wins by force. But I am surprised that it would be the 2nd player since after all, he goes 2nd! So maybe it is player 1. Can you please clarify if it is the player to move first (player 1) or it is player 2 that wins in the 6x6 game by force?

One last thing that I want to reiterate here. I think that it would be a GREAT dis-service to beginning players to NOT have the correct opening rules to the game.



Thanks,
Gary Barnes

Hi.
I'm new to this site, but i have played the game before.
If you wish to compete, then send me an invite.
Thanx

Prefer 1 day timeout games, but am willing to compromise.

If interested, send me an invite. :)

Hey... Where are all the anti-reversi players???? I've signed up for quite a few anti reversi tourneys, and there is rarely enough to start the tourney. So, I decided to create my own, and do a little advertising to get people to join! So come on! Join the Hot-Rod anti reversi tourney by April 5! LOL.. what a goofy name, but oh well! There are 4 signed up now, so this tourney will definitely be happening.. Let's get some more!
:-D

What is the game number?

Hello, I can't make a move on my game, can you help me?

Hi in game 45121 i can not get the board to come up so i can play. can you fix it

That is how Fencer made it - even if you have no moves you have to go into it and submit it. There was two reasons he told me. First, if several passes are required in a row by one player, the board could come back to the completely different when it is their turn. Second, you still should be able to send a message with the move, even if it is a pass.

In game #32430 a 6x6 game. Twice there have been times where my opponent had no moves but I did and still I had to wait before making another move....why is that?

Is there an automatic wait time between moves?

Hi.. I am brand new to the site.. but, know how to play reversi..

Who wants to play.. I have a game in the waiting room.. :)

It is restored.

CARNT MOVE

I am sure once fencer reads your message he will give you back your time as he is very fair in things like that!

Yesterday, this site was down for quite awhile. Today when I logged on, I found out that I timedout of a game that I was certainly going to win. I really don't think that's fair.

black does have an advantage at openings, white has the profit of parity* as a default
so in long terms its pretty equal =Þ


* i am not going to explain parity here, read it at www.vog.ru/reversi

I would say not that I have noticed! In 6x6 reversi, white achieves a narrow victory, so there is a suggestion (but no more than that) that white could have a very slight advantage at the larger games.
Please note, I am talking from a point of view where BLACK PLAYS FIRST as in reality!

in your own experience is there an advantage to being black or white?

no, both games would takes years on SGI workstations to be solved

Are there any numbers for the 8x8 and 10x10?

For me the strategy is generally not dissimilar from that of standard reversi. CONTROL is essential in the game, but instead of playing for the corners yourself you should try and force your opponent into them. I say grab a C-square (that's a square vertically or horizontally adjacent to a corner) at any opportunity (and don't let your opponent take these squares!)
Then there's the interest in that the "occupiable board" is a bit smaller and differently shaped from that in 8x8 standard reversi, and there are 8 C-squares on the board this time.
And of course one more point. If you occupy both C-squares and the X-square (diagonally next to a corner) all around the same corner, then your opponent will have to take the corner itself sooner or later!

true, that was back in July 1993
details at
http://www.maths.nottingham.ac.uk/personal/jff/othello/6x6sol.html
and
http://www.maths.nott.ac.uk/othello/Jul93/Amenor.html

Just thought (in case it is not known) that you might like to know that the 6x6 version of reversi has been solved (assuming optimal play from the opponent.
This is the work Dr Joel Feinstein from University of Nottingham, and former British champion of othello. White wins 20-16 with the diagonal setup, and 19-17 with the horizontal/vertical setup. This is of course when both play optimally!

Played in OTB tournaments for 15 years and therefore prefer the classical Othello start position i.e. with the black pieces on the NE/SW diagonal. Blaickner - thought about representing Austria in the Worlds?

if you are ever to play in a real tournament (ie over the board) you will be glad to have practiced with the official rules :)
4 pieces layed out diagonal, black starts

That sounds reasonable.

double ditto

ditto

Personally I like the option of how to start. Its only a couple of extra moves at the beginning and its nice to be able to choose the initail layout of the four centre stones. Especially with three different size boards. On the smaller 6x6 I like to start with the pieces diagonal, and on the 10x10 I like to start with them side by side. I have no preference on the 8x8.
I say leave it as it is, and the player can then decide for themselves.

On the internet there are several sites under Othello rules. It seems the 1880 rules for Reversi start with a empty board and a set number of 32 men. The first four men are still laid diagonaly. Modern games of Othello are pre set up and use a pool of men so you wont run out.

The diagonal is the only set up listed in the rules. Normal play is black going first. There is no advantage which goes first.

you can have two set ups.. diagonal or side by side.. am I wrong on this?

It would not matter which is on either side. The options after setup is the same

I would take a vote maybe..If you have it already set up with the 4 in the center then you have only one option to begin the game. The way you have it set up now you can begin play one of two ways and I am sure it had a huge difference in the outcome of a game.. I could be wrong but would like to hear from the experts as I am certainly not that.

And which of the two combinations should I use for the startup?

The only differnce is Othello is a trade marked name and can't be used here. Even the rules page here at Brainking says it is the same as Othello.