Artful Dodger: You are saying that the end justifies the means. That's bad policy.


Thats exactly what he is saying... that it doesnt really matter how we get people to reduce their "carbon foot print" as long as it happens!

(V): Ok... it is a fact that we are an adaptive species..


The point AD was trying to make , is that you claimed that he IGNORED the fact that we are an adaptive species when he made his thesis.... give us some proof how you know that this fact was IGNORED?

This guy in Australia is right on as far as I am concerned....

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Global+warming+religion+First+World+urban+elites/1835847/story.html

Vikings: Sounds good to me.... my biggest fear is something catastrophic happening, and I dont have any insurance for it..... but to have to pay such high prices for insurance to cover things like a visit when i need stitches for a cut, its not worth it for a young person in good health, its cheaper to just pay as you use.

(V): And our socialised system costs less to run then your mixed up system per person

No it doesnt! I have just proven to you, with myself as an example, I have paid far less by paying as i go, than if the government had taken from me the past 30 years!

Okay, now I just read your question again.... okay, maybe take the overall medical costs and divide by the number of citizens... is that what you are wanting to compare?

If so, maybe it is cheaper in your country... but I have learned long ago that cheaper is not better Your saying the cheap Jap car is better than the rolls royce, just because it costs less? I found it kind of funny that you would think that cheaper is better, especially when health is concerned

(V): I can add also, that I have paid far less for my health care over the past 30 years, paying out of my own pocket, than I would have paid into some government mandated health care system scheme!

How much do you pay a year for your "free" health care anyway? I bet it is a lot more than I have paid for my health care, and again, I have NEVER had any problems getting seen by a doctor, same day as needed, EVER!

(V): 40 million And while you may talk about yourself... what about one of those 40 million who has to wait?


This is where you are totally wrong again.... My girlfriend an I are 2 of those 40 million, but neither of us has had any problem getting health care, ever!!! I can go in today to my local clinic and see a doctor for any reason, and I will pay out of my own pocket on a sliding fee based on my income level!

Lack of health insurance does NOT equal lack of health care, not in the US anyway!

(V): yet you applaud corruption and high costs for a service that does not deliver




I do not applaud corruption.... I can agree that corruption is a problem and should be dealt with, and that would be a benefit to our medical system.

I do not believe that the answer to corruption is MORE government involvement.

In fact, I believe that the government is potentially more corrupt than any other private systems.

Yes, some may try to have false documentation to get free Canadian health care. But that is just someone trying to scam for something free, its not something done out of desperation, its purely a thief making a scam.


BTW, the $75K I referred to was only an example, not meant for accuracy.... the point is that a free market produces the best and brightest, you cannot dispute that, and you cannot dispute that many of the best and brightest will choose a more lucrative field when doctors pay is limited by socialism.

(V): I cannot understand why certain Republican factions want to keep a health system that is so expensive.



Before I read anymore.... part of the reason is because it is entrenched into our system already.

Point is, it cost a couple hundred thousand for medical education, then you want to tell the new doctor he can only make 75k per year?

So you might say then, well make it more affordable for education... then after that it is something else, and then in no time, we are full blown socialists!


Its just a part of capitalism, that things get expensive sometimes, but personally, I am willing to live with that, if it helps to avoid the failure that socialism is!

(V): I get your point... I do remember saying that since our representatives voted for the war in Iraq etc.... now support it... blah blah blah.... so thats what you are trying to say, I get it.

I dont think that war was "crammed down our throats" but some would disagree....


I still believe that history will bear out the good a right of the Iraq war, and the wrong of a more socialist US


I can say this... the old "everyone else is doing it" argument, that one just doesnt sit right with me

I dont think the US got to where it got, so far and so fast, following the crowd

(V): Heres the thing.... to get elected, he got a majority, but to get his initiatives passed, he needs to convince more people, many who did not vote for him, not to mention, those who voted for him based on one or two issues... IE, many black voters voted for him simply for the sake of electing the first black man.... now he has to convince them to support certain actions, and some of the tactics used for this include "shoving them down our throat". For example, telling us there is an crisis or emergency, and that any inaction will only make things worse. Most people were signing legislation without even reading it, the same with global warming, some big tipping point where it will be too late if we dont support drastic measures straight away.


If food is appetizing, and tasty, it doesnt need to be crammed down ones throat to get them to eat it... same with good policy, if it is good legislation, then a few days or weeks to actually read it couldnt hurt then?


You make it sound like just having been voted in with a simple low majority gives him a blank check to do whatever he pleases, and we should know what to expect based on promises, no questions asked?

(V): Well, you admit that Saddam didnt want inspectors, and it is true that he did many things to stall and delay etc.... for whatever reason, and thats where many of the UN sanctions came from...

Übergeek 바둑이: Those are not deaths caused directly by violence, but as a result of the war.




Its just that many people, myself included, believe that those numbers pale in comparison to the death toll had nothing been done....

(V): And to why Saddam didn't want inspectors... because the country's army was so weak that he didn't want the Iranians knowing fearing an invasion. I guess the USA knew that seeing as he was such an easy quick victory. Yet all that man power tied up there is a shame as it limits the efforts in Afghanistan.




Well this is a turn in your stance that there were inspectors that concluded no WMDs? It is too bad for to waste all that man power as well, I agree. I wonder why the borders was not sealed off immediately, but I guess that is easier said than done.

(V): Looks to me like we gave Iraq arms when saddam was in his early 20s.... and long before he came into power.

(V): ok now your turn...

(V): Tell me what Saddam had done that we knew he was a bad guy?

(V): I said it is okay.... you dont understand????

(V): now you

(V): yes, it is okay

(V): gonna answer my question?

(V): Where do you stand on the issue of Iran, and giving them help producing nuclear materials?

(V): I cant answer any of that, since I dont buy into your presumptions and premise

Übergeek 바둑이: So, are we really better than he was?

Yes....

Übergeek 바둑이: Iraq is no better than Vietnam was.




What exactly does that mean?


I have already given my first hand account from Vietnam, 2 decades later.... but a quick recap is that it was all good

Übergeek 바둑이: does anyone know how many people have been killed in Iraq?




Maybe you will tell us? I dont believe that the civilian toll dead at the direct hands of US military(coalition of the willing) is as high as you might believe.

(V): The ability to create them. From dear Ronald Raygun. It's in your government records.



The ability to create them... whoopty doo..... lots of people have the ability to create them, doesnt mean they use them against their own people, or purposely target innocent people with them


Doesnt mean you have to neglect your own people to the point where I have to feed them for you either

(V): The US gave Saddam wmds?

(V): Have you ever heard.... an enemy of your enemy is your friend?

(V): And if the USA was tired of monitoring him... why create him in the first place!!



you got it backwards...

(V): One minute Saddam is a good guy, been given WMD material,. next he's bad.


Problem with this analysis is that it was NOT one minute to the next, the time frame was many years, and under different administrations.


You dont seem to mind the US becoming more socialist, even though it has only been a few months since we were not headed in that direction.... see, things change, but you dont seem to mind sometimes, and sometimes you do


Your politics are full of contradictions, really, depending on what suits you for any specific argument... typical of one with a liberal mindset (US liberal that is)

(V): why were you tired of Saddam?




We were tired of him, again, because we were spending too much time, resources and money on the monitoring and feeding etc...

(V): And it would be helpful if you remember what you said, that democracy was the main reason that we went to war in Iraq... or was it WMD's??





Not true.....we went in because it was in our best interest to do so. By that I mean, that a stable middle east, starting with a free iraq, was good for the US, and the world, in many ways.

(V): And if you knew about quantum physics then you'd know nothing is certain at that level.


i NEVER SAID THAT ANY MODEL WOULD CREATE CERTAINTY.... YOU SAID THAT MODELS DONT WORK, PERIOD! tHEN YOU PROMOTED gODS MODEL....

So, again, which is it for you? If models dont work Chuck, then Gods model must be faulty as well?

(V): Now you have me confused again, with your contradictions..... models dont work except God created a model at creation that bound?????


You have ignored this one.... You say that models dont work, yet you seem to promote the model that God set into place????

(V): So Czuch... you've just blown the reasons you say America started the Iraq war on. Moral high ground.


Wrong again... we started the war in iraq because we were sick and tired of wasting our time and resources monitoring Saddam and paying to feed his people.....

(V): So, we can say the same of USA people that get killed or tortured?


yes, sure you can say that, but Daniel Pearl??? Really?

(V): Call it what you will, but the fact remains that none of it would be used at all, just the threat would be enough, all they have to do is cooperate, its their own fault, any technique gets used against them.

Unlike beheading Dan Pearl, which is done simply for the fun of it, our interrogations are for a purpose, and can be avoided with cooperation.

(V): Even God is bound (or so they say) by the laws of physical science as they are bound from the moment of creation when all that is was decided to be.


Models don't work Czuch...







Now you have me confused again, with your contradictions..... models dont work except God created a model at creation that bound?????

Übergeek 바둑이: Waterboarding is not acceptable to get a confession, because people will confess to anything to avoid....

But getting intel is a different story, you cannot make up good intel just to avoid....

(V): And hate creates pain.

(V): So when did someone decide the American spirit has become so weak that it needs to behave as it once said was so wrong??




911

(V): I dont need or want any moral high ground... you would be the one watching your family get slaughtered while chanting to yourself, "I am better than them" "I am better then them" "I am better than them"....

(V): So much can be dependent on little things, like whether somone is having a bad day or not. And us being humans.. can you predict accurately how someone will react?




Thats exactly why i dont trust mere mortals to make subjective choices in the micro management of my life.... I will stick with a good model, and update every so often, thank you

(V): It's a slippery slope when you've broken the moral ground you base your activities on.




here you go again.... trickle down is no good except when it works for you, and slippery slopes are a good argument, but only when it is to defend your own beliefs

Übergeek 바둑이: Just like a person who is an adrenaline junkie knows that he will likely die in some sort of an accident some day, so too do our military know that if they get caught behind the lines spying, that their lives are pretty much over, its just part of the job really I say a big yes to the thumb screws if some bad guy has some intel we need! What nobody mentions is that all these people have to do is give up their intel and guess what... NO TORTURE, back to the cushy cell with their Koran and silly diet!!!!

(V): Then who gets to decide what is a correct interpretation of the law needed due to lack of trust in intelligence??



LOL... that is exactly the same type of question I have for your socialism.... in regards to types of regulation etc

There are many situations where things get a bit subjective... I have asked you many times, without an answer i remember, who gets to decide?

thats the problem i have with a lot of it... it often comes down to one persons subjective views... and you dont like it when that view is someone like Cheney...and i dont like it when its you telling us how things should be..... thats why I prefer models, and then let it alone... subjectivity is only good when everyone agrees!

(V): Other ways to get info without the need for torture. A certain police force use it quite often


Really? What are they then?

Because it seems like to me that you are accusing us of torturing people just for the fun of it????


I do remember when we had some MPs taking naked pictures with dogs etc... but I dont consider this torture, I can guarantee you that our CIA has way better things to do with their time than to torture people just for the fun of it

(V): What are you asking me this for anyway??? Please give me some reference for me to get perspective?

Tuesday: You have a better idea??? Maybe force people with a roof to have people without one move in with them?

I think at least in jail they have shelter and 3 meals and access to other resources for when they are to be released

Doesnt sound great, but neither does living out of a shopping cart under a bridge