Vikings: I love this point!


Bam gets all hot under the collor about these executive bonuses, but I see he turned a blind eye on all the pork he has signed already! Not to mention the raises they all happily voted for themselves....

I am almost rady to join Usurper, and hold a peoples revolt against this governemnt of ours!

(V): You dont need God to be spiritual

Bwild: I agree, and now lets play some cards, you owe me some money back

(V): Okay, I admit we are not perfect, and I admit that our western way of life is not the answer for all, but for many people you have to start somewhere, and it is a long haul, so for many, they have to suffer today knowing that their suffering will only benefit the future... as a parent you would give up your own life for that of your child, and for some people, it will cost their life for a better life for their children or more accurately, their great grandchildren... boohoohoo, our forefathers suffered for what I have today, many Iraqis will suffer for what they will have tomorrow, at least their suffering now will lead to a better tomorrow and their suffering before was only treading water for them!

(V): But the fact that people need charities to step in and do things for them to make them more self reliant tells me that there is some underlying problem that should be dealt with first and foremost, and most of the time, that is the central governing body, and most of the time that is some sort of oppressing dictatorship, who hoard their countries riches for themselves, and let us feed their people instead!

(V): It bugs you that people are working to reverse those mistakes and to make these people self reliant?


No, it doesnt bug me.... but paying to feed someone isnt helping anyone become more self reliant... in fact it makes them less self reliant!

The Usurper: Trust me, your money isn't going to feed them, it is going to kill them & starve them. I don't suppose you'll ever figure that out.


oh... okay, so lets see... the US has been around a bit over 200 years... some of these countries we are talking about have been around for thousands.... but it is because of us that they live in huts and eat boogers and flys with their rice? They were all just thriving robust places to live for centuries until we came along and (BEEEEEEEP!) them all up

(V): Its the fact that you need the help of charities to give them a decent life that bugs me so much! The fact that you need help in the first place to give you a decent life, means to me that you dont really have a decent life at all....

The Usurper: I only support intervention when it is the alternative to us paying to feed their people!

I dont underestimate peoples ability to take care of themselves.. it is you who over estimates it..... if they are taking care of themselves so well, why do I have to feed them????

If they are doing so well for themselves, why are whole towns wiped out in mudslides ruining their straw huts?

(V): But you already have.. It's called the aftermath of GWII.


hahahaha... well at least i know what i am paying for then

(V): If people are fully informed of all the in and outs of your governments, and of the danger from gun crime that your country suffers from, that they might not get decent health care, get bombarded with more diabolical advertising. And possibly picked on because of their colour and religion!!


Dont you understand at all???? there are millions of people in this world who's biggest worries are weather to eat a booger or a fly with their piece of rice! We dont claim to be perfect, but we are doing it a lot better than most, and most would love to let Usurper eat boogers in a swap for our shoddy health care system

The Usurper: it's the facts I point out,

Yeah, the same "facts" I can find on the lips of even the most mundane of liberals... thats what bores me

The Usurper: Given the choice of the first or the second options I would take the second one... what I am NOT willing to put up with is feeding them and sending them money when the mud huts they built bellow a muddy hillside get wiped out, and waste our time monitoring them to make sure they really arent making anymore weapons used to kill their own people.... if they can take my money they can take my telling them what to do as well, works with your kids, works with bank bailouts, why not with poor backwards countries as well?

Take away all that from the equation, and we are on the same side again, for awhile anyway, i would not support our military intervention in any country that we were not responsible for anyway, or who have asked for our help specifically!

The Usurper: Your rhetoric is getting boring again.... I can get stuff like that from any liberal hack...

Do you have a solution then??? Ive said it before, to me i can have it the other way, we dont try to help the Iraqis because in doing so we may damage someones life more than it is already damage, and we run the risk of killing him before he can starve to death naturally, and we dont send them money or any kind of support, except normal trade like with any country, and if they are (BEEP), then we dont have anything to do with them, and we wait for the day that the oppressed rise against their oppressors all on their own!

Nomad: well the US government are the town officials and the local representatives as well as those you claim... it is a huge web of elected officials

(V): Like I said once already, and I can say it again.... It would take less than 10 minutes to find a million Iraqis and Vietnamese and others around the globe who would drop their lives tomorrow to change places with Usurper Actions speak louder than words, your words ring hollow with me!

The Usurper: We are not the cause of their suffering, they were suffering all on their own before we went there, and what is so wrong with suffering anyway???? Have you never suffered so that things might be better for your children? Suffering is what we do today to make things easier tomorrow!

Well, you can rest easy then, because our government doesnt represent you and you dont represent an American citizen either!

The Usurper: the U.S. govt. was an enemy of the Vietnamese people, and it is now an enemy of the Iraqi people.


The US government is me and you and we, maybe you feel like an enemy to the Iraqi people, but not me, I feel like an ally of the Iraqi people...

... and like I said, the Vietnamese people thanked me in person for what the US did there, and they wish we would have done MORE!

You may personally hate the US, but make no mistake, we are a beacon around the world, and poor oppressed and hopeless people all around the globe dream and hope for any opportunity to have what we have, we represent hope to them, I am sure I could find millions of people, Iraqis and Vietnamese included, who would trade places with you right now in a heart beat!

(V): The point I was making is that the Vietnamese people, regardless of the hardships some had to endure, the overwhelming majority appreciate what we tried to do for them, to help them stave off the oppression of communism, and 30 years later they are a more prosperous place than had we let the north communists take over the whole country, and from there who knows....

They do not resent us, they do not hate us, they like that even in failure, we tried to do what was right and stand up for them, and with them in the name of freedom, and it is my point to draw a comparison with them and the Iraqis.... Usurper claims the Iraqis didnt want to be liberated, and they resent us, and that we have caused more problems than we have helped.... but history will prove him wrong on all counts

(V): The only way to have one the Vietnam war would have to taken on the suppliers of arms to the North Vietnamese

I am not saying the US had a great plan to win in Vietnam, they learned nothing from the French failure at dien ben foo (or however it is spelled, dont have time to look it up right now) but the french messed up and underestimated the Vietnamese and the US didnt learn a thing and did the same mistakes all over again.

It was against the law for the US to bomb the supply route to the viet cong by way of the ho chi mihn trail because it went through Cambodia, and it was our government who ultimately got in the way of our successful help there.

Anyway, even if you are right and there was no way to win in the jungle, ultimately we have won, because Vietnam is more prosperous now than then, and they are our allies more now than ever, and they are happy we helped them, and they are better off for it!

Iraq will be no different....

(V): they are then thinking that the Pres is God and can perform miracles


Funny, when Bush was President, thats what was expected from him, to perform miracles, to the point where every disaster was blamed on him... but no such lofty expectations from the Bam.

The Usurper: Often in a dictatorship, people go the way of the dictators.

The Usurper: There are plenty of voices from Vietnam who speak a different tale about the Vietnamese than you do.


Really? You have someone who has personally been there conducting personal interviews with the common people today????

This sucks, I have to be to work in 20 m inutes and need a shower and a 15 minute drive.... whoops!

The Usurper: Problem is, I USED to think like you, and I have seen things more clearly and my opinions have already changed!!

The Usurper: But I do blame America for Vietnam


I have personally been to Vietnam.... the overwhelming majority of the people there, both in the north and in the south told me that they are glad for our efforts there and their ONLY regret is that we bailed on them like we did!!!!

The same will be true in Iraq, I know it I have first hand knowledge of it, problem is, It will take 20 years for me and Bush to be proven right!

The Usurper: not what I personally prefer.

Its not just that I personally prefer it, i think it is absolutely the right thing!

The Usurper: yes it is in our interest to have a stable and prosperous middle east... but it is in the best interest of the whole world as well, and in the best interest of the Iraqi people too, a win win win situation, thats a good thing, not bad!

The Usurper: re you for liberating the Iraqis, or for "imposing limits and regulations and rules on them"?


Forcing out their backwards government... that, in effect, are the imposed limits and regulations.....

Czuch: If we just hadnt sanctioned them for being (BEEP) they would be a thriving and prosperous nation, without the need of our money and support????

The Usurper: The point is that Iraq or the UN can sanction us all they want to and we will be just fine... saddam sucked at taking care of his people, otherwise, our sanctions could not hurt them! You have to blame saddam and his tyrannical ways for any problems Iraqi people had.... but thats right, you are part of the blame america first and for everything crowd!!!! You dont think Iraq has any blame for their own poor situation???

The Usurper: No self-interest on our part,

Of course there is self interest on our part! Nobody is arguing differently?

As I just explained, our interest included not having to spend the next thousand years taking care of them, giving them a chance to prosper for themselves, free from the burden they put on the rest of the world, which would have NEVER happened unless we helped it to happen by force!

You ask why then not everyone??? That is partly why, because not everyone is a burden on us... we do not feed the Russian kids, or chinas kids... they may have burdens but not to the extent where it effects us so much yet.

Plus we have only so much we can do to help, one place one cause at a time, someday we can get to them all, but it takes time, I raq was the right place and the right time, it had to be done, and the mixture of excuses and reasons and time and place all lined up, and it happened..... you dont like it, I do....

The Usurper: Really??? A people who are starving to death and relying on the outside world to feed and clothe them and to monitor their government for them, these are people we have no right to liberate????



You take away our giving them my money and you take away our paying to monitor saddam, and you take away all our aid and our responsibility to them and for them, then I can agree with you, we have nothing to do with them at all, let them all rot in hell as far as i care....


But as a good socialist you should understand this better? You support that if we give banks money we have a right to monitor them more closely and regulate them, basically govern them? You supposrt that if we give you food stamps, we can impose limits on what you can buy with them, right? Thats the way of the world, if I support you, I can make the rules for you too. You must have heard from your parents at one time "as long as you live under my roof"....You dont like them telling you what to do, then move out, dont be beholden to them anymore.

As far as I am concerned, when you take my money to support yourself, then I have a right to impose limits and regulations and rules on you...

That includes doing what I deem necessary to make you more stable and prosperous and self reliant in the future as I possibly am able to!

The Usurper: I am sure that if you were arguing my side, you would be able to find some nice bible quotes explaining how order comes from chaos, or something like that...

The Usurper: But we've brought slaughter and chaos to Iraq,

You have been there?

The Usurper: If and when the majority of the American people believe as you do that the US government is using a theoretical WMD against its own people, in secret and harmful ways, and we become unable to do anything about it ourselves, then by all means, the Russians or Chinese or whomever would be more than welcome in coming here and trying to liberate us!!!

Let me know when we get there please

The Usurper: t were right to liberate a people not asking to be liberated..

Ive not been clear, I am asking about liberating people who are asking to be liberated, which clearly the majority of the Iraqi people were....

If you are not asking to be liberated, then why bother?

(V): It's pure economics, no-one has much confidence in the market at the mo.

Dont you think that a presidents economic policies have anything to do with the consumer confidence level?

I can agree that in general the markets act independent of any president, that the markets had gone too high and for too many wrong reasons, and it was due for a correction, and that correction had started before Bam got elected...

but, if a president starts implementing policies that are contrary to a healthy market, cant that have an effect as well? (speaking hypothetically of course)

Dow Jones Stock average is down 32% since Obama got elected.... does it mean anything about his ideas and policies and that of the democrats who control the country?

The Usurper: Since you seem to like the use of appropriate words.....

answer this for me.... do you believe it is okay to use military force for the purpose of liberating people from an unworthy, and otherwise evil regime? Could you give me your answer from , legal, and moral, and historic perspectives, and include references to back up your claims, in 500 words or less please?

The Usurper: Point you miss is that you do not have any numbers for how many of the killed civilians were killed at the hands of US murderers????

Unless it is your point to blame the fact that the us was there at all, for every killed civilian?

The Usurper: overwhelming proof of U.S. government complicity.

Well complicity in what happened is a far cry from it happened in a completely different way!

(V): Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually"

That sounds like abortion to me

You cannot have a life without a father, why do they not have any consent in an abortion?

(V): How come when you murder a pregnant woman it is a double homicide then?

(V): we already have tear gas and others....

(V): yes, a bomb that releases a chemical, thats what I meant...... like I said a great idea, but its no wonder the military isnt much interested in developing it

(V): I thought you were asking why we dont make a bomb that disables instead of kills?

check your mail will ya?

(V): I said nothing about killing POWs???

I said if you had a bomb that only temporarily disabled people, you would end up with a problem of way too many POWs, as compared with if the bomb simply killed everyone

(V): Not a government within the government... a government with 3 separate branches none beholden to the others

(V): I like the idea! Something that temporarily disables everyone long enough to restrain them....

but I can tell you that one reason it hasnt been developed yet is the extra headaches live people are compared to dead people.... talk about POWs