I think that is one of the flaws on BrainKing (for BrainPawns that is). Even though you are done with your games in the tournament, you have to wait for all other users in the section to complete their games before you can join another tournament. (Something I pointed out awhile back)

... but then again, I guess it is a good flaw since that is one of the reasons I bought a membership because I did not want to wait for everyone else to finish.

But you bring up a point about the Vacations. I think vacations are a very good thing on this site, but 30 days is a long time! (esicially if that is "added" into the 2 days a week you get off) You could be gone for about 40 days strait without timing out!

Maybe there should be a limit - like you can not use more then 2 weeks in any giving month (or something like that)

I would like to enter another tmt., but I get a prompt saying that as a Brain Pawn I can only play in one. However, I am finished in that event (MainBrain #2, Atomic chess) and the only player with games remaining is on vacation for a month!? Is there any remedy for this? Why did a player who knew he would be away so long enter this tmt. anyhow?

I echo these thoughts. I apologize for posting in the wrong place, I was not yet familiar with the discussion boards, and we have moved the Keryo discussion ot the right place.

On a tournament note, I am pleased to note that the 2 game sets have been put in place for tournaments.

Let me apoloigze for some of that in this discussion board. I'm not really sure how it got going, but hey one thing leads to another and the next thing you know ol' Jed's a millionaire. :)
Anyways, it appears that there's a Keryo Pente discussion board now and I've even posted a few things there already. I'm just learning my way around this site. Next time I post to this section, it will have something to do with tournaments.
Walter

i just played it, thx.

I've restored the game.

Ellie you will need to ask Fencer, I have no idea, sorry, he should be able to restart the tourny game if it was a blooper.

mandy/Dream, why did i time out in my game with sunnyd? there were no moves made, and i played the other ones this morning, and there were no moves made in those, and nobody timed out.

Totally agree with dream; there is a Keryo Pente Discussion Board, where these missives will find a welcome home.

Can all these game specific comments be posted on the relevant boards please?
Its just that posts here about tournaments are getting lost in amongst all these other messages. :-)

and I'm just not understanding why it bugs
you so heavily - I felt lost on a big board
at the beginning period ~*~

Danoscheck--

"imho it's a way for beginners to get familiar
with basic structures and elements of tactics ~*~"

Are you serious? in what way is the 19X19 board inadequate for "beginners to get familiar
with basic structures and elements of tactics " ?????????

please, elaboprate on how the 13X13 board provides extra functionality for helping beginners. I am just not understanding this. IT IS THE SAME DAMN GAME, beginners are going to be able to grasp the opening s and such no better than on a 19X19 board!

I gave a reason ! *pout*

imho it's a way for beginners to get familiar
with basic structures and elements of tactics ~*~

Walter, I do not recall saying that the 13X13 gives anyone an advantage, I just said that there is no reason for it to be played that way. NONE! for all this talk, no one is giving ANY reason why it should be played on a 13X1`3 board when that is NOT the way it is intended! the different variants of the different games serve soem sort of PURPOSE. none is served with the 13X13 board. It was just an error by IYT, that if it had never been made, would not even be an issue right now! If IYT had mistakenly started the game on a 7 by 7 board, would you be championing its cause? NO, because it is poitnless, just like the 13X13 board.

Incidentally, as Gayr mentioned, the pente rules were OFFICIALLY changed VERY SOON after the game's inception to include the restriction, but nothing was ever mentioned regarding a smaller board.

Unlike Go or othello, a smaller board does NOT make the game go quicker, which is why Go and othello can be played on a smaller board.

as it appears in chinese and japanese mythology
- even treated with such a respect that it was
avoided entirely as aim ... the imagination of
perfection is stronger than any manifestation.

take eight time eight squares, voila - you have
the xianxi board the 'yellow river' not counted in.

played is it at the nine times TEN crosspoints.
the fortress three times three crosspoints ... :)

go/pente/keryo board contains four quarters
of nine times nine squares - again played on
the 'lines'- happens to be a running pattern in
asiatic games to CLOSELY avoid perfection ...

actually sense of the game, as a go-master said,
goal is not, to win but to snapshot a momentary
cosmic divergence of the tiniest possible kind.

real masters try to win by just ONE stone plus :)
~*~

Perhaps you're right after all Dmitri. My inexperience at these games is showing and my enthusiasm for them is making me think I know enough to kick in my two cents. That CaoZ guy is a good player. If you'll not play on IYT perhaps I can get him to play a few games. I too am going to drop from IYT, or I'm fairly sure that I am. Since I'm using this site to play Dark Chess and haven't become a paying member yet, I don't have the space for the Keryo Pente that they've recently added.
Please excuse the tone of my recent posts and I'll keep further replies about Keryo Pente to a minimum.
danoschek has an angle on it. I'm not too good with poetic talk and have a blunt way of talking, but he seems to sum it up quite well about the variations in his last post.
I am curious as to why you guys feel the smaller board offers the first player a bigger advantage than a large board. Is there an ideal size? Yeah, yeah, he invented it with 19 X 19 so why mess with it? Well he didn't event it with the move restriction, but obviously it's played that way now.

Would you be happier if IYT called their game Keryo13?

a protected name therefore a leading
'c' for 'children' is missing or 'b'
for beginner ?

I'm enjoyed trying it out, but at the latest
when I met CaoZ I knew it makes almost no
sense to be player 2, on such a small board, on
top without move restriction - my opening book
for C-Keryo basicly is the complete collection
of the games he lost at iyt. ;) not too many ...

regarding chess ... I bet the Chinese would
claim Xianxi as the only RIGHT one, as Shogi
would be worshipped equally in Japan ... :)

same roots - but continental drift to say so :P

not to mention that the original inventor India
almost lost it, because as 'Schaturanga' kind of
oracle and banned by religion for some centuries.
the persians saved it and deprived it from dice.

I don't know why D'mitri is growing annoyed with
the variations, as one also could declare all those
games obsolete, for being not the original 'Go' ...

I'd enjoy that we have
the choice and, made mine:
NO B-Keryo furthermore YAY ! ~*~ ;)

Walter. we are going back and forth here. I am NOT claiming that 13X13 is wrong "solely because I say so" as you claimed I said, but, and I will reiterate here, THE GAME WAS INVENTED ON A 19 X 19 BOARD. THAT is why 13 is wrong. changing it to 13 DOES NOT add anything to the game, it simply detracts from it. This is NOT the same thing as chess variants (I DO know they exist, I have played most of them). The chess variants ADD soemthing interesting; the example I gave was of playing chess with the SAME 32 PIECES on a LARGER board, which I REALIZE is NOT an actual variant! that is WHY I gave it as an example-- to show how STUPID the 13X13 game is. note that I SUPPORT REAL variants of pente, such as Keryo, D-pente, G pente, etcetera. But simply playing with the same ruels but on a tiny board does NOT qualify as a variant, in my opinion.

Please do not respond by telling me about othello. I realize othello variants have smaller andl arger boards. Othello is a different game than pente. There is not a valid comparison between the two.

Why have I not challenged you or dangerous mind to an IYT game? here are several reasons:

1) I detest IYT and I am trying to finish up my games there.
2) I see no point. With no restriction, I do not see player 2 winning any of the games, unless one of thep layers sucks, which none of us do. my only losses as P1 in keryo at IYT happened in my very first few games, and even then only to strong players.

Dmitri

Why do you insist that it is wrong? Just because you don't like something doesn't make it wrong, it just makes it something you don't like or approve of. It is just a different way to play it, is all. Maybe not the way you like, but it's still a valid game and I like it. Besides, it is the only way I've ever played the game. One of Gary's peeves about IYT was that it exposed newcomers (such as myself) to non-standard versions of games without showing or mentioning the fact that they were doing it. I am going to play it on a 19 X 19 board eventually, as I said in the previous post. If I have fun playing it that way or any other game for that matter that's the important thing. Sometimes it seems the fun is lost in all the worrying about rules and advantages and procedures. I am for making a game as good as it can be, but not everyone will want to play such a game. As Gary showed in his last reply about the proposed rules for Pente. The D version is easy to learn and seems quite fair, but let's suppose that the S is the fairest of all. The problem with both of them is the resistance to change even if it's obvious to all that change is needed. All the books will have to be thrown out and people with a vested interest in keeping things status quo will fight to keep it that way. Just from your reaction to the 13 X 13 board proves it to me. And you
are wrong about chess being played exclusively on an 8 X 8 board or with the "Standard" 32 men. This site alone has numerous variations of chess and you ought to check out the chess variants website. They have hundreds of versions and quite a few different boards.
I wonder how Keryo would play on a 9 X 9 board? See, did you think about it or'd you knee jerk react against such a thing?

By the way, if you're so good at Keryo Pente especially on a 13 X 13 board, why haven't you sent me a invitation to play on IYT? Getting tired of winning? I also have an opponent right now that would like to play you. He seems better than me and should give you a good game. His IYT handle is Dangerous Mind. Both of us look forward to playing you. So hold your nose from the stench of the 13 X 13 board and get on over there and show us a thing or two. :)

Walter, it is my understanding that at www.pente.org the opening restriction IS in place for Keryo pente, but I might be wrong about that. I can ask Dweebo about it.

You keep mentioning the 13X13 board. I wish you wouldn't. this is like playing chess on a 10X10 board with the standard 32 pieces. it just isn't done, and it is wrong. Being confined to such a small space is NOT supposed to be part of the game. You said that Gayr does not want to use the edge-- where are you getting this from? Gary and myself and any top player WOULD want to use the edge if need be, which is precisely why we are against this "phony" 13X13 board!

Gary

That D version sounds trippy and fair. Kind of like the problem of dividing up a cake into parts that everyone getting a piece agrees with. Yup, that would be the way to solve the problem of fairness quite well. The book on the openings would start over fresh and the strategy and fun at the start would also be new. Your G version sounds simular to what I thought up, though my idea wouldn't stop someone from placing them in a row with spaces between them. It'd be cool if all these versions were available at the sites for anyone to click and have their game played under the one they chose.

I went to the Pente.com site. I played one game of Keryo Pente. It was the first time I've ever played it with my opponent playing at the same time. He made a restricted move for his second move so I couldn't tell if he was forced to or not. I asked if he had to move there or chose to and he said he chose to. Next time I'll go first and find out. Cool site. I'll have to spend more time there the next time and check out some of the links too.

A version of Pente that I thought up a few months back would be best played on the 19 X 19 board. I call it Double Pente. To win you have to get two five in a rows on the board at the same time or one six or longer in a row or you have to bag 20 dudes. For Keryo I suppose it could be 30 dudes. I think it'd be a fun game. It would take more moves to play and would certainly lessen the first player's advantage a little.

You don't seem to like using the side of the board while playing Keryo Pente. I think the 13 X 13 makes for a good game because of the very fact that the side is part of the play especially against good players that make a game go more moves than the weaker players do. I do want to play a bunch of games of Keryo Pente on the 19 X 19 board to see how I feel about it. Still no word from the ol' IYT team, eh? :(
Perhaps I'll like it more or not or even the same. I suppose the 100 X 100 was a little extreme. 30 X 30 would probably completely eliminate the side from serious play. Especially if the first move is the center intersection.

Thanks again for your replies. I hope your research on the 3rd and 4th rounds of Keryo Pente tournaments on IYT is going well. Sounds like a lot of numbers to look up and shuffle through.

Walter -

Thanks for the thoughts and good questions on further rule changes in Pente. Three changes have been proposed. They are called D-pente, G-pente, and S-pente. The games actually exist on www.gamerz.net but no tourneys have been run with them, as far as I know. I think we're just kind of waiting for all of the openings to be exhausted with the current rules, which we are close to doing now.

The letters before the name of Pente is the first letter of the first or last name of the people who proposed them. D-pente was proposed by Don Banks of Canada and S-pente was proposed by Oleg Stepanov of Russia, both top players. G-pente was proposed by yours truly.

Here's the rules for D-pente:
1. Player 1's (white) first move is to center.
2. Player 2 now makes 3 consecutive moves while alternating colors. (black-white-black) There is no restriction on the placement.
3. Player 1 (white) now must decide whether to keep the white stones or swap sides and play the black stones.

Regardless of what the original player 1 (OP1) chooses to do, it is white's move. So if OP1 chooses to swap, he is now black and it is his opponent's move. If he did not swap, then he is white and it is his move. The strategy for OP2 is to make the position as EVEN as possible after making the 3 consecutive moves, which makes the opening full of possibilities and much more interesting.

This is a very good variation that virtually guarantees that neither side will get much of an advantage if the players are reasonably skilled. The only problem is that some players will not like to swap sides and it is a little tricky programatically. But it is easy enough that most people would understand it.

I will briefly mention S-pente. This is a complicated swapping version that I have not taken the time to understand even though I've looked for a while at the rules. It involves possible swapping on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th move so that there can be 0 thru 3 swaps in a game. I don't think there's much chance that very many players will like this because it is too difficult to understand.

Of course my favorite is G-pente since I proposed it! It is EXACTLY like Pente with the current opening restriction except that there is only ONE further restriction on player 1's 2nd move, that is:
Player 1's 2nd move must be at least 3 intersections from his opening move AND it can NOT be in a straight line horizontally or vertically from his opening move either 3 or 4 intersections away. In other words using the coordinates here at Brain King, white can also NOT move to F10, G10, N10, O10, K6, K7, K13, and K14 on his 2nd move.

The reason for this is that virtually ALL of player 1's advantage in Pente with the current restriction is as a result of player 1 making a 'straight line' move from his opening move. It is my opinion that this will even things up for the foreseeable future.

BUT...that said, even with G-pente, it IS possible in 5-10 years (or perhaps less) that one side or the other will be analyzed by top players to have a substantial advantage once again. If that happens, there would probably be no choice but to go to a swap variation.

In proposing G-pente, I have only done a moderate amount of analysis on it and could not come up with anything conclusive for either side, which is what I wanted. I also haven't heard any other strong opinion one way or another on it from top players, although it hasn't been discussed much.

If you want to see the 3 games in program form, Mark Mammel has some software that you can download and that plays all 3 of them on his site. You can find a link to his site at Dweebo's Stone Games at www.pente.org. There is a place on the left side of the main menu for links.

A couple of last things. I think you were confused by what Dmitri King meant by running out of room on a 13x13 board. We would NEVER attempt to imply that the board would fill completely up with stones, even on a 13x13 board. That simply wouldn't happen if the players were trying to win. What he meant is that on a 13x13 board, you would hit the edge of the board quite frequently, ESPECIALLY in Keryo-Pente. You wouldn't notice it so much playing lesser players, but since you're a good player, if you consistently played other good players, you'd notice it quite frequently.

In Pente with the current opening restriction on a 19x19 board, on a rare occassion, say 1 in 25-50 games amongst top players, the edge of the board will be a factor. In Keryo Pente, I would say that the edge of the board would be a factor in 1 in 10-15 games in the same situation. This is after having played several games of it at www.pente.org.

As far as the 100x100 or infintiy board thing, I'm not sure why anyone would want that and it would be potentially VERY problematic to display on someone's screen. But from a purist mathematical perspective, I can understand what you are alluding to there.



Gary

Vacation times, even during tournaments, are essential! This is one of the worst features at IYT, that they don't allow vacations for tournaments. Hence, the large number of 'forfeits'.

Hi Gary! Thank you for you replies and research.

A most interesting way to make your point, use my own playing stats! Hmm, I hadn't thought it was that much of a deal, but if them are the numbers you've pretty well convinced me. Especially since you've only used my tournament stats and not the side games where the games would be unequal as I go second in a lot more games in them because of running series with players as we usually play loser goes first in the next game. I'm not much for the bell curve, but I can think of it ratiowise. 89% is about 8 to 1, and 69% is about 2 to 1, so it's easy enough to see that. My Dark Chess record is 19 to 1 on IYT tournament and side games both. If I lose even one game it drops the percent a lot. Winning 10 in a row doesn't raise it at all sometimes. I guess that's because it's at the tip of the curve, eh? Whereas my Pente stats being lower a loss may not even affect a change.

I like the game on a 13 X 13 game, but you might be right about IYT ruining it for me and others. I had never even heard of Keryo Pente until I joined the site a year and a half ago. I've never had a problem with room. I can't even imagine a game filling up all the intersections and then having no more moves. Since we're all just using pretend boards on the internet, I'm surprised they haven't made an infinite board or say 100 X 100 if the players wanted too. That's one thing I really like about this site as compared to IYT, they give the players more options in setting up the games and the tournaments. I agree with you about having a standard board and rules for tournament play. I wonder why IYT doesn't seem to care about us any more? They should certainly listen to people and try to accommodate their desires if it'll improve the experience. Doing so would almost certainly help them make more money. I imagine they first started the 13 X 13 boards as a way to save computer memory and realizing that most players were casual players and wouldn't even notice the difference from the standard rules. If you and others have asked them to set up a Pro Keryo game and they've ignored you (Which I think is worse than being denied) then my liking of their site is dropping further.

I'm trying to think of a rule change for Pente that might help the player moving second to equalize his winning chances. Perhaps a second move restriction? Say, not to let the third move be placed next to the first or second move. You know, atleast one space apart from them (A King's move)? That would cut out 16 different moves for player 1. I wonder if it would make a difference though, or even tip the scales toward the guy moving second? I don't know Pente well enough to think it in my head, nor does anyone I know play the game so I can't test it out. What kind of ideas have the Pente organizations or yourself been thinking up? Is the move restriction for Keryo the same as it is for Pente? I'd like to try this version of it. Does the Pente.org have it? I bet they do. I'll check them out soon.

So you guys had problems with them too! Wiktor256 and I were in the finals of a Dark Chess tournament when they decided to show me the board in one of the games! If you know Dark Chess, the game is spoiled if that happens after the first move. Of course I captured his King two moves later. I wrote to them about the problem. They cancelled the game and put it to the first move again, where it stayed because it kept saying I had won the game. Both of us wrote to them to restart the game. After a few e-mails they finally wrote back saying that they couldn't fix it! I couldn't believe their answer. Why couldn't they just restart it or cancel the round? Oh well. Wiktor256 was so dissatified with their response he said he was going to give up on IYT. I wasn't happy either Of my 5 tournament wins, this one felt cheap just as danoschek has discribed in his posting. Definitely not a way to run a tournament or treat paying costumers. I have only one tournament left on their site and am considering not renewing my membership when the term runs out later this year.
Also I have written them about improving the posting of statistics and tournament winners and thing, but they can't be bothered with mcuh I guess. Just hints that they're working on it or that it won't be happening.

There is about 1 day left to join the first Gothic Chess tournament!

I have created my third Spider Line4 Tournament. Open to everyone and anyone who wants to play. It will start at the beginning of April. Good luck to everyone who enters :-)

I did not target any players
- just that certain 'tourncontol'
and I admit until summer 2002 I had no
objections about quick and proper responses.

btw - no lists please I'm sure everywhere
folks going for an easy score happen to exist :P

Savage was very co-operative ... we really
did everything in private initiative to avoid
additional work for IYT farest possibly ...

we delayed our moves up to the limit, suggested
to just add Grandpatzer to our group as simple
solution - nothing happened ... as we figured
the sweat spilled, when a server for a million
goes down, no pushing, we were patient, idle. ~*~

danoschek: Don't worry, you will find that there are unsportsmanlike players here too (well, at least one) ... no reflection on Fencer (and his team?) who has been most helpful although, in this case, his hands where pretty much tied.

You know who oyu are!

indeed I have to agree with Gary ...

how often the real Keryo was suggested as
improvement, (we offered Keryo-Pro as name)
not even a single answer - guess I've not reached
12 tries yet or a diffuse other restriction ... :p

in a particulary remarkable case, during the
Durham power outage (which understandably casted
a lot of messed up results 1st) and, re-instating
and catching up with 'orphane-rounds' promised,
I found myself in a chess final - as deserved :D

but a game of the previous round, supposed to be
drawn was timed out by my opponent, I re-instated
even before official intervention - but the final
ran ... :O - my main competitor in the semifinal,
grandpatzer, should have tied up - but my win was
falsely counted ... got to meet 'savage' alone ...
we protested via game-diagram-link, via email more
than a dozen times - peakhold of the bluntness
I encountered was, they nagged me for bothering
*what the heck I was up to as *I* was qualified
and playing* ... I don't even mind - grandpatzer
owed to be there ALSO, THAT was my point !

I won the tourney but, with him in the final group
it would have been much tougher and more valuable.

guess they don't know how sportsmen think :/ ~*~

'

Walter -

You say that I haven't proven anything about the advantage of player in Keryo Pente without the tourney rule. Well I am doing so here. I have compiled your IYT tournament stats at Keryo Pente. You are a very good player and hence I'm surprised that you are arguing against an opening restriction. Here's your stats:

As player 1: 35-4 89.7%
As player 2: 28-11 71.8%
Total: 63-15 80.8%

Now to be more accurate, we must remove games that were 5 moves or less that were forfeited:

Player 1: 31-4 88.6%
Player 2: 24-11 68.6%
Total: 55-15 78.6%

Very nice stats indeed!

As you can see, you are substantially better as player 1 then player 2. Mathematically, there is a HUGE difference between 89% and 69%. Even for just 35 games, the statistical signifance is out there. If you think of it in terms of the statistical bell-shaped curve, the difference between 89 and 69% is MUCH larger than the one between 60% and 40%. I would not consider it significant if it was 60-40 unless you had more games played.

But what makes your stats MORE significant is the fact that MANY of the players that you would have played would have been beginners and low-intermediates, and hence you won both games fairly easily.

I could compile stats on many different top players in rounds 3 and 4 of the Keryo Pente tourneys at IYT and make the significance ridiculous. As a matter of fact over the next few days, I WILL do that. Then there will be NO question in ANYONE's mind about the advantage enjoyed by played 1 in Keryo Pente without the opening restriction.

As far as the 13x13 board argument. That's not even an argument. The game wasn't invented that way nor was there any formal rule change made by any Pente organization to change that. There WAS a formal rule change in 1979 to have the opening restriction, so IYT showed it's ignorance by not being aware of BOTH of those facts.

The fact that you are arguing in favor of IYT's rules further proves the devastation that they have done to those 2 great games. Here's why. In order for a game to become a mainstream competitive game with sponsored tournaments and the like such as Chess, Pente, or even unrelated games like Scrabble or Monopoly, it must have a large following. In order to have a large following, books must be written, strategy guides must be written, databases of games (for board games) must be created, etc. The only players that will do those things will be hi-intermediate and championship-level players. The only way that top players would spend their time with something like that is if both sides had a reasonable chance to win.

These things have been done for Pente because it's just been in the last 2 years that player 1's advantage has really come out even WITH the current opening restriction. Without these things having been done, it's just another recreational game with mostly luck involved or with one side having an overwhelming advantage like Tic-Tac-Toe or Connect-4, or kids games such as Sorry, Trouble, or Candy Land. No one in their right mind would write strategy guides for those, because once you learn a few basic rules and patterns of play, there's nothing left to learn.

It is our goal to bring Pente and Keryo Pente into the mainstream so that there will be sponsorship of future tournaments. That can only be accomplished if both sides have a reasonable chance to win, even at the highest level.


Gary

Walter -

Yes, perhaps I do sound snobbish toward IYT, but their problems in setting up Pente and Keryo Pente incorrectly to start with are only a SMALL part of the problem. Actually, THEY are snobbish towards US. Here is their problems:

1. They ignore customer requests for improvements. They just 'dream up' their own things that they think will be improvements. Frequently these 'improvements' have been requested by very few players and others they have been requested by MANY players are ignored.

2. THEY act snobbish towards PLAYERS when they make a comment that they have troubles getting on their site at a particular time. They almost always say that it 'HAS' to be the player's provider or computer. I have personally experienced this when I KNEW the problem wasn't on my end and have seen many other players experience it also.

Here's another example. DmitriKing wanted IYT to declare him and Ilurath co-champions of a tournament. After 10-15 Emails they finally gave up. Then to prove a point, he and Ilurath started resigning their respective game immediately every time a new round started so that they continued to be tied. Finally in round ELEVEN, they declared them co-champions!

3. Here's the worst example. When Dmitri King suggested a small improvement for Pente (I'm not sure what it was, but I think it was something simple like automatically placing the stone in the middle to start the game), they said that they do not wish to improve Pente at their site because other sites have Pente!!

This is a true story that can be confirmed with Dmitri King himself. Can you believe that? What kind business in their right mind would make a statement like that?

Now you know why Dmitri King and I think IYT is just plain rude, mean, and snobbish!!


Gary

Walter--

1) Gary's attitude towards IYT (which I fully share) is completely justified.

2) IYT's versions of pente are WRONG. PERIOD.

3) Pente was invented by Gary gabrel in 1977 (approximately) on a 19X19 board, and it is supposed to be played on a 19X19 board. PERIOD.

4) Your comment about pente being flawed because it has a rule restriction doesn't make sense. So what? That alone doesn't make it flawed, but NOT having the restriction DOES make it flawed.

you then say:

"As Keryo isn't Pente either. I believe Keryo was made up in response to the very thing you pointed out.... "First to move"'s big advantage in Pente"

Yes, Keryo pente is not pente-- It's KERYO PENTE! Just like extinction chess is not chess, it's extinction chess! does that make chess any less of a game? No!

You don't see anything wrong with playing on a 13X13 board? Players would run out of room! Keryo pente is a longer game than pente, because of the increased number of captures possible, and pente often goes towards or to the edge of the board.

Why has there been less study for Keryo-pente? Who knows? Pente has just been more popular. For one,m there is a database containing thousands and thousands of pente games, at www.pente.org, thanks to the great efforts of Dweebo (creator of Dweebo's stone games, which is where pente.org will take you).

One more note on IYT-- they have BLACK moving first. THat is just wrong, and it created confusion when players discuss a game or a position, because unlike chess, where everyone knows white moves first, when soemone says "I was black and foudn myself in this position...." no one is exactly sure what that means.

Getting back to my Keryo pente record at pente.org-- I think you missed the point entirely. You don't see a difference between 100% and 75%? THat is a big difference! I am willing to go on that site and guarantee a win as player 1 against almost anyone, but I would not make the same guarantee as player 2, because it is definitely tougher to win. My 12-4 record does not negate that fact.

you said the restriction for pente has not been successful. I disagree. Player 1 still wins more often, but so what? In almost all ga,es, player 1 probably wins more often.
in closing-- to respond to your last remark-- yes, by all means check out pente.org, it's a great site!

Hmmm.... I imagine that you are quite a good regular Pente player. If you're right about you Pente players not studying Keryo all that much it might explain my success in it. It is true that in two player games without chance in them it can be shown that one player or the other has the advantage or a forced win except in the case where one player can always play to force a draw if the game rules have draws. You even used some of that argument about having the first dude placed in your other reply. And Keryo is spread out a little more as it's played. I think that Keryo might work a little differently because of the capture rule change from Pente that makes Keryo the game that it is. I only think this, I can't show or prove it. As you haven't either.
So why isn't there more study to Keryo? I think the game is better than regular Pente. I don't have the time or inclination to study it or master it and was hoping you enthusiasts would have done so already. Quite snobbish and provincial I think your attitude is towards IYT and other sites toward the game. Aside from the fact they have a --move restriction -19 X 19 board-- both colors --tournament game rules-- on their site just for players such as yourself. Why disparage IYT tournaments of playing everyone twice? Especially after you sing the virtues of it in your recent Pente tournament. I think that is a better method than arbitrarily assigning colors and using some method to weight the games. Yeah, yeah, to speed up the games. Right, and you think this site is faster? They better do something about the Vacation rule during tournaments or there's going to be a lot of problems. I do have issues with IYT. They are almost cavalier in their response to player questions and help. They've also gotten so concerned about making money that they're giving us players short shift in other ways too. Still I do like a lot of the things about their site. This BrianKing site is good too. It certainly gives us players more control and autonomy. They probably got a lot of their ideas from IYT and decided to start their own site and correct the problems they thought IYT has. They have better costumer service too. I wrote them a couple of times and they responded fast.
I don't see anything wrong with a 13 X 13 board for Keryo Pente. What makes you so upset? The only reason Pente is on a 19 X 19 board is it was borrowed from a Go board. Yes, the game plays differently on a smaller board. The sides come into play for one thing. I bet that doesn't happen at all in your Pente games on a 19 X 19 board. I used to play Pegity on a 15 X 15 board and it predates Pente by 20 years or so. (Pegity is Line 5 or Gomoku) I'm curious about the other rule changes that you guys are thinking up. To me Pente is flawed because it requires a rule retriction. I could imagine the uproar in chess playing circles if they proposed move restrictions! I have thought up a couple of variations of Pente that could be played. One of them would probably lesson the advantage of going first so much as to eliminate the need for the move restriction. The problem is it wouldn't be Pente any more. As Keryo isn't Pente either. I believe Keryo was made up in response to the very thing you pointed out.... "First to move"'s big advantage in Pente. From your posting you argue that it wasn't very successful in this regard. It also sounds like the move restriction in Pente hasn't been very successful either. Least ways not very much so in your tournament. To win the tournament you must win when going second. I imagine anytime someone of your playing ability wins going second in the finals of a tournament everyone else analyzes the game to find out what happened.

I just scrolled down to find your previous posting. It appears I've made a couple of mistakes about what I thought I read in the two newest postings. You are for two game matches in tournaments. You like the Sonne thingy for breaking ties in two game match tournaments also. As I'm not familiar with it, nor having seen it in use, I'll reserve my judgment on it until it comes up involving me. It might even be something I might want to use in the Building tournaments for breaking ties. Currently we use games won as the determining factor except for the championship. For that a tie breaking game is used. Since there isn't sides in Building (Though there is argument about who's advantage it is (Dealer versus Non-dealer) it is not a factor as both players take turns during a game being the dealer) Games won is determined by the final scores ratio win to loss. Winning the game still counts first.

Thank you for your replies and I hope some others weigh in on this. Pente and its variants are good games. Perhaps I should check out the Pente.org site, eh?

<Walter -

I want to answer some of your questions from a prior post.

>> I'm curious about the advantage or disadvantage of going first in Keryo Pente. This game seems a lot more fair than regular Pente. I think it might have something to do with the way the dudes are captured. <

See my last post on that. Without the opening restriction, it's more fair than Pente because the defending player has more defensive choices. But the difference in the advantage is VERY little once you study both games in depth.

You can think of it from a mathematical perspective. If one player has more stones on the board to start any game where he must get X n a row of them to win, then by proof he has to have an advantage almost regardless of the rules with one MAJOR exception. That is UNLESS he is forced to spread them apart more than his opponent! The captures do little to reduce this advantage, because if you are always the one placing that extra stone on the board at all times, you have a greater chance of being able to capture 2 (or 3) of your opponents stones before he does yours.

>> I am wondering how the wins and losses break down amongst the real good players depending on who starts first in Keryo Pente. <

Keryo Pente is not a mainstream game yet. Few top players have studied it so there is little imperical data on it, but let me relate the advantage enjoyed by player 1 in Pente even WITH the opening restriction to you. As you read this, keep in mind that the advantage for player 1 is only SLIGHTLY reduced in Keryo Pente vs. Pente. Here's some recent stats on Pente:

The 2001-02 World E-mail Pente championship just completed. This was played WITH the opening restriction. The top 4 finishers in the 8-player championship were myself, Istvan Virag, Alexander Nosovsky, and Scott Justice. Everyone played the other 7 players one game of each color so 14 games total. Amongst those top 4 finishers, player 1 won 11 out of 12 games! That's ELEVEN of TWELVE, 91.7%!! This is WITH the opening restriction!! If you included the 7 players who completed their matches, the percentage was over 75%!

Keeping all of that in mind and that the advantage for player 1 is only slightly reduced for player 1 in Keryo Pente vs. Pente regardless of whether it's with or without the opening restriction, it's not even worth considering playing Keryo without the opening restriction if the players have done any significant studying of the game.

Based on this, there are some new rules in Pente that will eventually be coming through to further reduce the advantage enjoyed by player 1 even with the current opening restriction. (Don't worry, it won't replace the game with the current opening restriction. It would be a Pente variant.)

>> What is the "Sonneborn-Berger method"? Why break ties when you can just play a tie breaker game or two more? Or have both players advance as they do on It's Your Turn?

I want to dispell the notion that what they do at IYT is normal. MUCH of it is just plain wrong! That includes constantly ignoring player's requests for improvements, having the incorrect board size and rules for Pente and Keryo Pente to start with, and not having ratings so that they can have sectional tournaments. I also think that not attempting to break a tie is not very smart because the tourneys last MUCH longer than they need to.

The Sonneborn-Berger method simply adds up the total # of wins of all of your opponents that you defeated in the tourney. If you defeated someone twice, you multiply his wins by 2 for totalling up your opponent's wins. It's as simple as that. Excellent method for tiebreak. Its theory is that you get more credit for beating stronger players than you do lesser players that you might not be playing as hard against.

This method does not break all ties, just some of them. But some is better than none and it can do a lot to reduce the amount of time it takes to complete a tourney.


Gary

Walter -

I think you know what Dmitri King means and you're just nitpicking words there. When I played Pente without the tournament rule at IYT because that's all they had and all that I could find at the time, in 18 tournaments, I lost 8 games. ALL EIGHT of those were as player 2 and I was LUCKY in the MANY others. Why? Because there was almost no one in those tourneys that knew how to play the game correctly! That's because most of the former players from the '80's either didn't know about the site or refused to play it without the tournament rule, because they knew it was pointless.

It's the same way for Dmitri King in Keryo Pente at www.pente.org. Sure, he's 12-4 as player 2, but that's because few people understand how to play the game right.

But what if you took Dmitri King, Istvan Virag, Dmitri Krasnonosov, Alexander Nosovsky, Scott Justice, myself, and a few others and gave us a year to completely study and understand the differences between Pente and Keryo Pente. Then you put us into a Keryo Pente tournament together.

Would player 2 EVER win without the tournament rule? Not likely, but if he did, it would be 1 in 50 and we would all be bored tying with each other the other 49 out of 50 times. Give us 3 years to perfect our game, and it would be 1 in 1000 or probably NEVER!

Right now, I would probably wager on Dmitri King beating you 5 in a row without the tourney rule as player 1 in Keryo Pente at IYT, even though I think that he has studied the game very little. I could be wrong, you could win once, but that's because the game is different enough from Pente that he made an error large enough that you could win. That's not to say that you aren't a good player, it's that player 2 is at a fairly severe disadvantage in Keryo Pente also without the opening restriction, even though that disadvantage is not quite as large as in Pente.

The points are:
1. The more you study a game, the more one-sided it is to play it without an opening restriction.
2. Why not play the games WITH the opening restriction from the time that you learn the game so that you have a more equal chance from either side, regardless of your ability?

By the way, the 'things' that they call Pente and Keryo Pente at IYT are no such games. Those games were NEVER invented to be played on a 13x13 board and the tourney rule has been in existence on them ever since the game was less than 2 years old in 1979. IYT simply screwed up when they put the games on their site to begin with and so proceeded to confuse a generation of players. Brain King has gotten it right! As I have told many people, the IYT games should be called 'Beginners (Keryo) Pente' or 'Recreational (Keryo) Pente'. Pro Pente IS the real regular Pente and they don't even have the real regular Keryo Pente!


Gary Barnes

12-4 and you say you find it difficult to win? Hmm, I'm confused. If you're a member of It's Your Turn Dmitri King, I'll play you some games. You can go first in them if you'd like and we'll put your theory to test. :) If you win them all, I'll see your point, but even if I take a few of them I'll ask you some questions about how it goes while we play.

I have just opened 4 new Fast Tournaments. They are backgammon, nackgammon, backgammon race and crowded backgammon and are open to members Brain Knight and above. Games to start on the 18th!

Walter, the advantage of moving first is significant in keryo pente, in my opinion. The opening restrictions help level the field, but not by much. At Dweebo's stone games I am undefeated as player 1 (14-0) and I am 12-4 as player 2. I find it difficult to win as player 2, and I was never in danger of losing as player 1.

Is that how it works? The person offering the prize has to put up the prize fund? Hmm, I suppose that's fair. It'd certainly make the tournament maker want to win his own tournament!
When I finally do become a paying member on this site I'll probably make a couple of tournaments with a prize. Hopefully I'll win, but if not it should make for some good players and games just trying to win the prize.

Guess you will have to find a rook who feels like spending their money for the prize :-)

How's 'bout one of you BrainRooks getting one going. I might win and then I could postpone having to pay to become a paying member. :) Even if I don't win, I'm sure it would attract good players and the games would be good games and lots of fun either way. I'll help spread the word if you get one going and we'll see if we can get lots of people involved.

Hi Gary. I'm curious about the advantage or disadvantage of going first in Keryo Pente. This game seems a lot more fair than regular Pente. I think it might have something to do with the way the dudes are captured. As you've said you're a top Pente player, I am wondering how the wins and losses break down amongst the real good players depending on who starts first in Keryo Pente.
I agree with the playing of two games, one of each color being a better method than arbitrarily asigning sides. What is the "Sonneborn-Berger method"? Why break ties when you can just play a tie breaker game or two more? Or have both players advance as they do on It's Your Turn?

Thank you

Rabbits2 ... you have to have the minimum membership level of Rook to start your own tournament .. have a look at the Paid Membership page :0)

Can a person who is only a Brain Pawn start a Tournament?

Hi Gary :-)

As you have probably read, many people seem to agree with you that 2-games against each opponent would be better. Fencer said he would implement that later (don't think he gave a timeline).

And just to clear up the Five in Line, it was originally 20x20, but now all new games started are on the 15x15 board - only games started before this change are 20x20.

To all -

My name is Gary Barnes. I am the director of one of one of the sections of a large real-time Pente tournament at Dweebo's Stone Games at www.pente.org. Dmitri King and I are both top Pente players and were instrumental in forwarding the correct rules for Pente and Keryo Pente to Filip (Fencer) so that he could get those games set up on his great site. When we did this, it took him less than a week to have the games on the site, which impressed us.

I'd like to make a few comments about the advantage enjoyed by one side in several board games as it relates to the need for everyone to play everyone else in one game of each color in tournaments here at Brainking.

In Pente, even with the correct and current opening restriction on white (player 1), white still has a moderate advantage amongst intermediate-level players. This advantage is increased as the skill of the players increase. It is increased even further in turn-based play, because players can study the positions for long periods of time, if they wish. In E-mail World Pente championships, it is not uncommon for player 1 to win 75-80% of games. Fortunately, we have the opening restriction or player 1 would probably win 98+% of games in top-level turn-based competition. This brings up the game of 5-in-a-line on BrainKing here.

A top Gomoku (5-in-a-line here) player by the name of Istvan Virag along with one other person successfully solved the game of Gomoku as a forced win in 24 moves by white (player 1) on the recognized standard of a 15x15 board. That is because there is no opening restriction for white like there is in Pente.

What this means is that if black plays PERFECTLY, then he can last no more than 24 moves if white plays perfectly and will always lose. While perfect play is unlikely in any game, the fact that a win by force can be accomplished in only 24 moves indicates the overwhelming advantage enjoyed by White in Gomoku (5-in-a-line), even amongst intermediate-level players. This advantage would be even greater on the larger 20x20 board that has been used frequently here at Brainking.

Because of these things and the fact that in many games, one side owns either a small or substantial advantage to start the game, I have just recently sent off an E-mail to Filip suggesting that players play 2-games, one of each color, against all opponents in tournaments.

With that said, I think that the Sonneborn-Berger method for breaking ties is EXCELLENT, but ONLY if everyone gets to play one game of each color against all of their opponents. Otherwise, I would agree that it makes things MORE unfair for a strong player who happens to unluckily get the disadvantageous side against another strong player.

rod03801.. there isn't really much to do, choose a game (or all games), do your settings and then on the day & time you selected press the buttons to start the tourney!!
Then if it gets to a second round press the button to start that (I guess, mine haven't reached round 2 yet!!).
Easy Peasy!!