"Have Fun": They arent bothering me in the slightest

bouncybouncy:  It's certainly not cheating if both players are aware of the time limits and agree to them.  Since extremely short time limits are not "normal" on this server, I think it is good practice to call the opponent's attention to them, perhaps in the title of the game.  Otherwise, a person could accept a game inadvertently under circumstances where they would have to time out, presumably spoiling the game for both sides.  After all, we don't play games primarily to win them, but to enjoy the company and competition. 

Whether it's "cheating" to set up games without a warning is a matter of opinion.  I think it's unfair if it operates as a trap for the unwary.

alanback: The warning is in the time though isnt it. All the games that are in the "waiting room" clearly state the time limit which that particular game will run, surely it is up to the person to carefully check the time of the game before they accept it.

alanback bouncybouncy: I agree with these two posts.

bouncybouncy:  Probably true.  Since I generally don't pick up games in the waiting room, I don't have enough experience to know whether the time limits are obvious.  I have occasionally carelessly accepted an invitation sent directly to me with short time limits, but so far I have always noticed it in time to delete the game. 

alanback: A player p;icked up an hour game of mine from the waiitng room, we played the game then he asked ifi would play another with him, i said yes but only if it wasnt an hour limit, becasue i was going out, so he sent me a day limit. Now, surely its common sense, to check your time limits before you accept, whether the invitation is sent directly to you or is picked up in the waiting room.

I would agree with Alan. If I were doing these kinds of games I would want to know that my opponent is aware of how it works and what's required in terms of a time commitment. There have been countless posts on the BK board of people - including experienced BKers - expressing "What does .. mean?" and "Oh, I didn't know that" with regard to the clocks. With newcomers to the site they don't even know to ask the questions.

There's one player (in Linetris) who delights in winning games against newcomers who don't know that they must stick to the game like glue or lose it. What a great welcome he gives them to the site; their first experience here is to get shafted!

For me it wouldn't be fun or acceptable for anyone to lose to me because of the time. Each such win would be a cause for regret if I could have helped the opponent avoid it. Clear notice in the game invitation would be one part of that. With a new opponent I'd ask them on the first move what they understand about the clock and time constraints. I'd do it then so that I could delete the game if it turns out that they didn't realise. In other words I'd make it my responsibility, not theirs, to avoid winning because of the clock.

That's not to say that you should, just that I would. Part of it is that I care about my opponents but another part is that I care about my games stats. A 66% winning ratio isn't of such value if it includes too many non-playing wins. Others don't care two hoots about their stats. ;-)

bouncybouncy: I didn't say you were cheating. However if one player moves slowly it is the OTHER player who is going to suffer. Or more accurately the player whose turn it is when sleep overcomes him/her will lose. This doesn't seem fair.

Even if I'm playing someone I know is moving every minute I still wouldn't set up 1 hour moves in case we don't finish before something comes up.

ok i really never got into backgammon. but i never undertood the cube? what is its purpose and how does it work. ive read many things in the rules but nothign really explains it. If i read it correctly you must accept a roll or you lose the game. but then what purpose do pieces on the board mean? if im down 120 pips to 1, i can say Double and win? that makes no sense. little help would be great thanks.

Nothingness: You should read the rules again. If a player doubles, the other player must accept or concede the current game. If the opponent concedes, then the doubling player immediately wins the current game and receives a number of points equal to the current value of the game before the double. For example, if no player has previously accepted a double in the current game, it is worth 1. After one double is accepted the game is worth 2, after 2 doubles it is worth 4, and so on. If the opponent accepts, then play continues normally at the increased stakes. So it normally makes no sense to double when you are hopelessly behind, because you are just doubling the amount your opponent will win (and giving him the opportunity to redouble). A player who wins an undoubled game wins 1 point, unless the win is a gammon (2 points) or a backgammon (3 points). If the game has been doubled and accepted once, then a single game is worth 2 points, a gammon 4, and a backgammon 6.

Until the cube has been turned (i.e., until a double has been offered and accepted) either player can offer a double before rolling the dice on his turn. Once a double has been accepted, then only the player accepting the double can offer another double. In this way "possession" of the doubling cube passes back and forth between the players, changing hands after each accepted double in the current game.

One other doubling rule is the "Crawford Rule." The Crawford Rule states that, when one player reaches a score that is only one point away from winning the current match, his opponent may not double in the next game. After that game (called the "Crawford game", which BrainKing erroneously calls the "Crawford Round", the trailing player may double normally.

Nothingness: the doubling cube only makes sense in a match of more than 1 point

by declining the cube offer you will lose that game, but not the match (unless if its the last point your opponent needs)

in the end game when you are far behind your opponent, your opponent can offer the double, you will of course decline, and the game will finish a bit faster :)

in the end game when both are not that far apart, one can offer a double if he think he will win .. if he was correct then he wins double the points he would have otherwise won

the trick is to find where you will still win, and your opponent might still accept .. i you can notice that position, then you win double the points your opponent might win in the same kind of game, and you might win the match although your opponent might be of equal strength in backgammon without the cube

of course there is a bit more as alan explained : when the doubling cube is available you can also win gammons and backgammons .. a gammon (no men beared off by your opponent) is worth 2 points, without any doubling applied yet, a backgammon (opponent still has a men in the starting quarter or on the bar) is worth 3 points ... so a game which was doubled once and became a backgammon .. is worth 6 points :)

now the trick is to find out .. when you are winning a game .. wether you can turn it into a gammon (which will give you 2 points without doubling) or if you wont be able to do so .. if you double and your opponent declines you will only get 1 point .. but it is a certain point

the best way to learn it is to try it :)

Hrqls: Good points.

The strategy of using the cube is subtle, despite its apparent simplicity. Like all plays in backgammon, it depends upon the odds of various outcomes. These are easier to illustrate if one assumes a "money" game is being played rather than a match of finite length. In a money game, the winner of each game wins an amount of money equal to the agreed stakes multiplied by the value of the cube. So, for example, if we are playing for $1 a game and you win a doubled gammon, I owe you $4. Each game is self-contained so there is no match winning strategy to consider.

Now, assume we are playing a money game for $1 a game and after several moves I offer you a double. (Assume we are of equal playing ability.) You examine the board situation and conclude that your chances of winning the current game are only 40%. Should you accept the double, or drop it (concede)?

The intuitive answer is to drop, because you are more likely to lose than to win, and accepting doubles the stakes. But surprisingly, the correct action is to take the double. This can be shown mathematically.

If you drop, you will lose $1 immediately. If you accept the double and play on, you have a 60% chance of losing $2 (net value of minus $1.20). However, you also have a 40% chance of winning $2 (net value of plus $0.80). Therefore, the total net value to you of accepting the double is minus $0.40. Since this is better than the minus $1 cost of dropping, you should accept and play on.

Accepting a double actually increases the net value of the game somewhat, because after accepting you are in possession of the cube and only you can make the next double. This turns out to be a very significant advantage in some cases.

alanback: LOL would you accept a IOU if i didn't have any money LOL:)

"Have Fun": I don't play for money on the Internet :-)

alanback: Wise man you are:)))

Nothingness: like this position. i might be able to finish the game before he gets all his men home and bears 1 off ... that would give me 2 points (3-0 in the 7 point match) ... but .. i think i wont be able to gammon him .. i think the wisest action for me would be to offer the double .. so that he would decline .. giving me 1 point (2-0 in the 7 point match) .. by offering the double and getting the game i wont risk being caught by his single piece in case i roll badly and leaving a single men
but as i am not a wise man .. and i like to gammon .. i wont offer the double yet and just risk a bit for this 1 extra point (gammon) and hope i wont roll something like 6+3 twice in a row

Hrqls: In this precise example I think that your analysis is missing an important concept, the one of "market losers". But I don't want to comment too much on an ongoing game, and anyway I will try to put some cubing concepts together in an article for brainrook.com :-)

nabla: ah yes please ... that would be great! .. i only learned about the cube when it came online on here and know very little about it .. just what i just mentioned :)

1 thing which i didnt mention is that my opponent probably doesnt want to leave his spot there because its his only chance to send me back .. therefore he will probably move his other men first and giving me more opportunities for a gammon (unless he rolls a 6 ;))

we are a few moves further now and i decided to open up a bit in favor of bearing off extra men .. it leaves me more vulnerable though .. but i think i need that if i want to gammon him :)

please dont give hints or strategies which can be used in this game while its going on though ..

i am explaining my own thoughts in this one .. which might help my opponent .. but thats my own choice ;)

btw nable and i have a game going as well with a nice doubling example .. if i remember correctly from about half an hour ago :)

Hrqls: Now I re-read my message and it really reads too much mysterious, sorry, I'd better said nothing. But after the game is finished I would with pleasure discuss the position with you in a clearer way !
Yes, nice example we had, I thought that at the beginning you were wrong not to double, but it surely turned very much in your favour as it is now a very probable gammon.

alanback: great points that you and Hrqls have made on the cube... however as you both know this only skims the surface on the 'theory of the cube'....
...alanback, a few years back you had a link to a very informational 'cube theory' article... I must say I was enlightened on many things by reading it and it explained things in more far more detail than either of you posted here... I don't know if you still have it , or even remember it, but it explained why one should offer the cube, and when to offer it... it also explained the advantages of cube possesion, and why one should accept early in a game...
if you remember this link, or still have it, I think it would be great reading for the enquisitive minds interested in better knowledge of the cube, or simply for someone that wants to better their gammon play and/or experience...

LionsLair: I don't have it at hand, but I will try to dredge it up.

I have some backgammon feature requests and would like to discuss them here before sending them to Fencer.

Request #1 :
Having to do two clicks instead of one when accepting or rejecting a cube offer. It could be a "are you sure?" question, but I think that the simplest would be a radio button or listbox selection "accept/reject", and then a button "Send the cube decision".
The reason is of course that I sometimes accept by mistake cubes that I intended to reject. I found out why : I make my decision to reject the cube, and then want to drop some lines to my opponent in the text box. After I am done writing, I click on the left button below the text box thinking it is a "send" button, like with many text boxes on Internet forms.

Or am I just dumb, and does it happen only to me ?

Request #2 :
In Crowded Backgammon and Backgammon Race, some checkers on the bar are them from the beginning and don't need to be played. Other checkers on the bar are sent there by the opponent and must be played before any other checker can be played. But the graphical board doesn't show any difference between those two sorts of checkers on the bar.
When it concerns one's own checkers, try and error can tell. But when it concerns the opponent's checkers, it can be painful to have to go down the game score in order to find out which is which.
Checkers which are on the bar since the beginning of the game should show differently, e.g. on a different background, or elsewhere on the screen.

nabla: I don't have a game right in front of me, but isn't it already a 2 step process>

That is you accept or decline the double.

Then after that, the text box comes where you can type and submit the move. (or cancel the decision and go back to accept/reject again?

nabla: I actually wait until the next frame to send a message, since messaging on the reject doesn't show up in a useful place.

For instance if you sent a note to me after rejecting a double I would never read it, since I just delete the annoying messages without opening (in mid game - at the end of the match i will read the message).

nabla: Agree 100% with your second request. Even for my own games. Since I play a mix of all the gammon games, I may come across a race game that I still have one on the bar I don't have to move, but my instinct is when I see 1 or 2 pieces on the bar, to get them out before doing anything else. If I took an extra 5 seconds, I would see it's a race game and I might be able to make beter moves elsewhere - but many times I don't take the extra 5 seconds.

grenv: That sounds like a good policy to me, that I will adopt immediately. But then, maybe the textbox would better not be there.
BBW, about #1 : Sure you can't cancel your cube decision ! It would be a different game if you could decide whether to cube after seeing your dices.

Request #3 :
This request is of the nice to have type, I expect that it would concern only the most involved players. But maybe I am wrong and this would be helpful to many people.
In chess, with each finished game there is a link allowing to download the game in standard format (for chess that is called PGN format). What about having the same for backgammon matches, with one of the standard formats (e.g. .mat) ?

That would allow us to import a game in a backgammon software and having it analyze the game. Not only is it a very easy to use and helpful tool to analyze one's own mistakes, but it could also help assessing the strenght of one's opponent, and even to detect people who use computers for playing their moves - although I reckon that there are probably very few of them here.

nabla: BEFORE you submit, you can cancel - I'm pretty sure. So if you make a mistake when you click accept/decline, you get a text box to "submit" your move - at that point, I'm almost positive there is a cancel option.

... will have to wait until someone doubles me in a game to make sure I know what I'm talking about.... since I might be wrong.

OK, forget what I said - I was wrong. Just quickly looked, and what I was thinking of is when you make an offer to double, you get a second box to make sure.

When you accept and decline, it is like you said - once wrong click and opps. So forget what I said, I like the request also - someway to make sure you don't lose a game because of a stupid accedent - and you lose a game because you got beat like it should be.

nabla: At DG I sometimes misclick [Double] instead of [Roll] so I have confirmations switched on for offering the cube but never for accepting the cube. Any feature implemented as an option in the backgammon settings would get my vote. As something compulsory it wouldn't.

nabla:You get my vote for this request, simple ideas are always the best.

nabla: I strongly agree with #2, it makes it hard strategy-wise as it is now, this has been brought up before but never aknowlegded

nabla: I'm also waiting for this feature of gamefiles in backgammon. I'm not sure if its not already on the to do list, I think so and would like to have this opportunity.

LionsLair: Is this what you were asking about?

http://www.geocities.com/alanback/deja/BGthoughts.htm#Gammons

alanback: yes, that looks very familiar... I seem to remember this and other theories on the cube when I started fine tuning my gammon skills, with better knowledge of the cube (when to offer/accept/decline)
... for anyone that wants to better their play and/or knowldge on the subject,this is great reading...(understanding simple mathmatics helps too!)
...thanx for dredging that up!

Come on in, the water's fine.

playBunny:

xmas is soon: Lolol. You'd have to join DailyGammon to understand that one. ;o)

playBunny: oh LOL, nah ya alright, im confused enough with this site

... in a situation where a player can only use one of his/her die but not both,yet capable of using either one, why doesn't the player get the choice of which die to use?(no swap dice option) ...is the protocal to use the higher die, or the first die?
...I was only able to use the first die(the higher roll), is the reason I ask, but would have prefered to use the lower #, which was the second die....

LionsLair: The rules say that you must use the highest dice first.

Carl: You are not required to use the higher die first. However, if you can only use one die, then you must use the higher die if possible. You also must use both dice if possible, i.e., you can't make a move with one die that makes it impossible to move the other, unless there is no possible move that uses both dice.

alanback: ... so if I had rolled a 3-5 and not a 5-3, then I would have had to use the 3 because it was first?
...I could only use one but not both...

LionsLair: I don't see how you could interpret what I said in that way. I said you must use the higher die, not the first die. It doesn't matter in what order they are rolled, you still must use the 5 rather than the 3 if you can only use one of them.

alanback: duh, ...brain ____! I reread what you wrote...I don't know what I read the first time... thanx

alanback: I must have been having a BALD moment!!

LionsLair: Happens to me all the time, and I have hair!

LionsLair: You mean your brain's gone bald like a tyre? You've worn down all the little squiggley indentations which channel the thoughts away when you're thinking very hard so that you don't go into a mental skid?? Wow, that's a heavily used brain! ;-)

From: arpa
Date and time: 21. November 2006, 18:05:09
Subject: You are not the tournament winner
Tournament: Ciao from Italy # 57 - Nackgammon (1800+) cube 5 (Nackgammon)

Your final position is 2.
Winner of the tournament: arpa