Artful Dodger: That's one way of looking at it. lol

The Usurper:  Looking at the current situation since January 18, where at least two rockets a day have been launched into Israel from Gaza, and Israel has honored the cease fire, what other way is there to see it?  The Arabs firing the rockets are the good guys?  Sure.

Artful Dodger: I'll look into it later tonight, and see if I can find an alternate viewpoint with facts to substantiate it. Or else see things in a new light. January 18...that's my birthday. I'm officially old now.

Tuesday: Thanks. :o)

The Usurper:there's always an alternative viewpoint.

Artful Dodger: That is true. Some are more related to facts than others. That's always our goal, isn't it? To align our viewpoints with facts? A high calling, not always easy.....

The Usurper: Facts and interpretations of the facts are two different things.  Just so we're clear on those parameters.  One thing that would have to be made clear to me, how anyone is justified in firing rockets into civilian targets simply for terrorist purposes.  Nothing is gained for Hamas by the rocket attacks.  They are meant to provoke Israel, knowing Israel will respond with a heavy hand.  Then they can whine to the world about Israel's aggressive tactics.  If I were Israel, I'd never have given back any territory after the 6 day war and Yom Kippur.  The Arabs have promised to drive Israel into the sea and that is what they will continue to try to do.  No matter how many consessions Israel makes, and they have made many, the Arabs will never rest until Israel no longer exists.  This is a fact to which they themselves attest. 

Artful Dodger: I agree with you that rocket attacks on civilian targets is as unwise as it is immoral. Both sides appear to be guilty of this...although Israel has a bigger punch and so does more damage. My opinion, in general, is that Israel is practicing apartheid in the Middle East. This is not to excuse other terrorist organizations (Israel's practices "state terrorism") from heinous acts.

The Usurper:apartheid is a bit strong.  If you were surrounded by your enemies, who attacked you on with the intentions of wiping you out, (6-Day; Yom Kippur) and from the moment of Israel's "rebirth," they have been attacked.  And if those same enemies vowed to drive you into the sea, and if those same enemies had as their holy book words written in it to kill you where they find you, then you might see things as they do.

It's easy for you with your Western eyes to look at Israel as the agressor.  But you don't understand the middle east mindset and particularly don't understand the enemies of Israel.  Nothing will appease the Arabs except for the complete extermination of Israel.  Israel is NOT seeking their extermination and history has shown that they have put forth multiple efforts at peace.  It is always the Arabs that break the peace. 

Artful Dodger: I believe your understanding of the Middle East mindset is more a caricature of reality, than the truth. Certainly there are some hard right Muslims, just as there are hard right Christians. I don't consider either attitude healthy or conducive to peace. But Islam is smeared in America. Its people are sorely misrepresented. I'd hate to be an American Islamist about now.

The Usurper:"I believe your understanding of the Middle East mindset is more a caricature of reality,"

You can't possibly know anything about my understanding about he  Middle East from the  little I've said let alone characterize it as a caricature.  lol  Neither you nor I fully understand the Middle East to make fully intelligent statements regarding the policies, politics or attitudes they hold.  At best we both hold misguided to uninformed to semi-informed understandings.  ;)  

Artful Dodger: "Nothing will appease the Arabs except for the complete extermination of Israel."

I think this statement is a mischaracterization of most Islamic people. So I see that as a misunderstanding on your part. I agree there is plenty we both don't know.

The Usurper:Except that the leaders themselves have said as much.

Artful Dodger: Krushev (sp) said the same about America, but I doubt most Russians felt that way.

The Usurper:I don't think that's a fair comparison.  We're talking about the whole of the Arab world and the collective attitude of the group.  Which Arab nation openly and regularly supports Israel's right to exist?  And which ones openly and regularly support Israel's ultimate defeat?  Those that are silent can be placed in the latter category.

Artful Dodger: I don't think you can collectivize the attitude, that is too simplistic & results in caricature. That is my point, really.

The Usurper:Well, you didn't know I collectivized until now so that can't be your point about my caricaturing. 

What is the national policy of Iran towards Israel? 

Total destruction.

one down

Artful Dodger: That is not true. Iran has no national policy of destroying Israel. In fact, Ahmadinejad's comments were mistranslated. Read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel

"And asked if he [Ahmadinejad] objected to the government of Israel or Jewish people, he said that "creating an objection against the Zionists doesn't mean that there are objections against the Jewish". He added that Jews lived in Iran and were represented in the country's parliament.[27]"

Iran is one of the most non-agressive nations in modern history. It hasn't attacked anyone. Not so the belligerent U.S.

The Usurper:

“There is no doubt that the new wave (of attacks) in Palestine will wipe off this stigma (Israel) from the  face of the Islamic world....Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury (while) any (Islamic leader) who recognizes the Zionist regime means he is acknowledging the surrender and defeat of the Islamic world....As the Imam [Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini] said, Israel must be wiped off the map.”

— Speech by <span>Iranian
President Mahmoud <span>Ahmadinejad

AP , October 26, 2005

Artful Dodger: There is a lot of dubious translation in your posted quote, as is well-documented. Suffice to say, Ahmadinejad
does not like the Zionist regime & properly recognizes it as an enemy. He does not advocate the genocide of the Jewish people. And the fact remains, that Iran has no official policy of military aggression towards Israel or anyone else. The only war they've fought in recent memory is a defensive war against the American-backed invasion of Iran by Iraq under Saddam Hussein.

The Usurper:"There is a lot of dubious translation"

Prove it - line by line

Artful Dodger: I've known for some time about the mistranslation. During the current debate, I googled & found the Wikipedia article, so that's what I posted.

I just googled this:

Ahmadinejad mistranslation
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Ahmadinejad+mistranslation&btnG=Search

I don't have the energy to prove it line-by-line. lol But it is something you might research.

The Usurper:I'll look at it.  But I'll also offer some other quotes that are similar to Iran's leader and so actually support my position and put yours in question.

Artful Dodger: "I do get your point but I'm still right."

That's a good line to end tonight's debate with. lol

Sleep well. Who knows where the P-Board will lead us tomorrow? (eery background music)

The Usurper:   It will be my quest in life to lead you to the right path; and your quest to lead me astray  ;) 

Artful Dodger: LOL We may both fail miserably. Unfortunately I can't afford to bribe you..... :o)

Artful Dodger: Check your PM.

The Usurper: That is not true. Iran has no national policy of destroying Israel



Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei called on Wednesday for world Muslims to join the Palestinian "resistance" against Israel

Czuch: Mmmmmm It reminds me of a kid saying he's gonna get ya in a verbal dispute.

It's just talk, designed to keep the Israeli haters in Iran happy. He knows most Muslims while concerned over the matter will never take anything but peaceful actions such as marches.

But big mouths gotta act big.

The Usurper:How many copy paste credits do I have? (found some good quotes  )

Artful Dodger: Rubbish. They have what they call these days "Rules of Engagement" written down in their Holy book, just as the Jewish people have "an eye for an eye".

And as for it always being the Arabs..... that is as far from reality as we are from the edge of the universe. In respect Israel broke peace terms and conditions regarding the Palestinians for years.... hence the problems. I think they've broken more UN resolutions then Saddam, they taken land not theirs (like Saddam and Kuwait), abuse the Palestinian people daily (just like Saddam) denying them basic human rights and the Palestinian people are just supposed to go "ooOOOOoo we deserve it as we are Arabs and the bad guys"...

If Israel had kept to UN resolutions on borders and the rest then the hate level in that area would be far, far less.

Now what is the USA going to do about a country that has broken resolution after resolution, killed and made a peoples existence a hell of sorts and has WMD's?