The Usurper: the U.S. govt. was an enemy of the Vietnamese people, and it is now an enemy of the Iraqi people.


The US government is me and you and we, maybe you feel like an enemy to the Iraqi people, but not me, I feel like an ally of the Iraqi people...

... and like I said, the Vietnamese people thanked me in person for what the US did there, and they wish we would have done MORE!

You may personally hate the US, but make no mistake, we are a beacon around the world, and poor oppressed and hopeless people all around the globe dream and hope for any opportunity to have what we have, we represent hope to them, I am sure I could find millions of people, Iraqis and Vietnamese included, who would trade places with you right now in a heart beat!

Czuch: Sure, the poor peoples of the world want more material goods, and some of them want the relative freedoms we enjoy. But they don't want our oppression of them so that we can be so wealthy. And America is slipping...less freedom, less wealth for the average citizen.

The U.S. government may be YOU, but it certainly isn't ME. I claim no part of it, I didn't vote for it. It doesn't represent me.

If you are an ally of the Iraqi people, it is a strange allegiance that combines affection with indifference towards the suffering your government causes them.

The Usurper: We are not the cause of their suffering, they were suffering all on their own before we went there, and what is so wrong with suffering anyway???? Have you never suffered so that things might be better for your children? Suffering is what we do today to make things easier tomorrow!

Well, you can rest easy then, because our government doesnt represent you and you dont represent an American citizen either!

Czuch: "We are not the cause of their suffering, they were suffering all on their own before we went there, and what is so wrong with suffering anyway????"

Oh, I see....so when a bomb we drop blows up an Iraqi kid, we didn't cause his suffering....or the suffering of his parents, etc? Interesting....

And what is so bad about suffering? Hmmmm....let's see, mutilation of limbs, destruction organs....starvation & poison in the air...depleted uranium & defored babies....you know I guess you're right, those things aren't so bad after all. How could I be so foolish as to pity people for that!?

If I were an Iraqi today, I'd sure as heck want to trade places with me....anything to get away from the violence & poverty caused by the American war machine.

The Usurper: Your rhetoric is getting boring again.... I can get stuff like that from any liberal hack...

Do you have a solution then??? Ive said it before, to me i can have it the other way, we dont try to help the Iraqis because in doing so we may damage someones life more than it is already damage, and we run the risk of killing him before he can starve to death naturally, and we dont send them money or any kind of support, except normal trade like with any country, and if they are (BEEP), then we dont have anything to do with them, and we wait for the day that the oppressed rise against their oppressors all on their own!

Czuch: That sounds like the best solution to me. Leave them the hell alone. Of course, we owe them a couple trillion in restorations, but beyond that, they can take care of themselves.

It isn't my rhetoric that bores you, it's the facts I point out, which you don't find palatable.

The Usurper: it's the facts I point out,

Yeah, the same "facts" I can find on the lips of even the most mundane of liberals... thats what bores me

Czuch: You use to be.. but your country's reputation has gotten tarnished. Many people have suffered as a result of certain depts of your 'government'... And many people have witnessed it.

(V): Like I said once already, and I can say it again.... It would take less than 10 minutes to find a million Iraqis and Vietnamese and others around the globe who would drop their lives tomorrow to change places with Usurper Actions speak louder than words, your words ring hollow with me!

Czuch: Are you sure? And are you sure these 'million' are those you'd want living in your country?

If people are fully informed of all the in and outs of your governments, and of the danger from gun crime that your country suffers from, that they might not get decent health care, get bombarded with more diabolical advertising. And possibly picked on because of their colour and religion!!

Sure it will take ten minutes

(V): If people are fully informed of all the in and outs of your governments, and of the danger from gun crime that your country suffers from, that they might not get decent health care, get bombarded with more diabolical advertising. And possibly picked on because of their colour and religion!!


Dont you understand at all???? there are millions of people in this world who's biggest worries are weather to eat a booger or a fly with their piece of rice! We dont claim to be perfect, but we are doing it a lot better than most, and most would love to let Usurper eat boogers in a swap for our shoddy health care system

Czuch: "most would love to let Usurper eat boogers in a swap for our shoddy health care system"

I'm sure some would like to see me in a FEMA gulag. lol

Czuch: And their are many organisations and charities helping them get to live a decent life. From schools and medicine to agriculture, fresh water wells and irrigation.

.... It's Red Nose day again soon over here.

(V): Its the fact that you need the help of charities to give them a decent life that bugs me so much! The fact that you need help in the first place to give you a decent life, means to me that you dont really have a decent life at all....

Czuch: Czuch.. many mistakes were made in the past that have affected their quality of life. Many of those mistakes were made by the western world.

It bugs you that people are working to reverse those mistakes and to make these people self reliant?

There are also many newish orgs giving back by buying these countries produce at a fair price, and/or helping them establish a better standard of living. Eg "Fairtrade" and "Rainforest Alliance".

For many years these people have been exploited by companies by paying low rates for their produce. That is really starting to stop. At least over here it is.

(V): It bugs you that people are working to reverse those mistakes and to make these people self reliant?


No, it doesnt bug me.... but paying to feed someone isnt helping anyone become more self reliant... in fact it makes them less self reliant!

Czuch: Then why are you bugged by the charities helping them become self reliant so we don't have to feed them?

(V): But the fact that people need charities to step in and do things for them to make them more self reliant tells me that there is some underlying problem that should be dealt with first and foremost, and most of the time, that is the central governing body, and most of the time that is some sort of oppressing dictatorship, who hoard their countries riches for themselves, and let us feed their people instead!

Czuch: When we have to feed them it's usually because of a dictator or war.. agreed. Many of these affected people have been after help in terms of someone to step in and bring order, but their cries have been ignored. By us westerners or their own local countries.

Some of the problems relate back to our loan system we use to have with many third world countries, some of the problems were from us trying to make them live like westerners, rather then live with the land and use it properly.

There is a lot to fix and it's not an overnight fix job.

(V): Okay, I admit we are not perfect, and I admit that our western way of life is not the answer for all, but for many people you have to start somewhere, and it is a long haul, so for many, they have to suffer today knowing that their suffering will only benefit the future... as a parent you would give up your own life for that of your child, and for some people, it will cost their life for a better life for their children or more accurately, their great grandchildren... boohoohoo, our forefathers suffered for what I have today, many Iraqis will suffer for what they will have tomorrow, at least their suffering now will lead to a better tomorrow and their suffering before was only treading water for them!

Czuch: It is just like the situation with the poor in America. The very best solution is to strip the government of all its power and then people will find ways to take care of themselves free from the oppressive influence of the Overlord, whose power is wedded to large corporations & banks for the purpose aggregating ownership & wealth into a few hands. The second best solution is for the enormous power of the government to be directed towards helping lives, not destroying & enslaving lives. But this seems to be impossible in our current situation...and perhaps always, since the nature of strong government is to rule with an iron fist.

"The power to tax is the power to destroy." (forget who said it, I think one of the chief justices, maybe Marshall)