Caissus: Those games are some entertaining ones. Thank you, Uwe.

Caissus: ahhhh - THAT is what I call graphics.
much better than the C64 outfit of the socalled vortex ... ~*~

...is not such a strong program as "Vortex" or "Smirf".Anyhow it has some interesting features:It is freeware,it has a fullscreen display and his handling allows fast and blitzgames.You can try out to beat Max in Janus or Gothic in a fast 15 minutes game and it is not easy.
Menu - Live - Challenge - choosing the game and the time.
The following game was played by me with a 15 minutes time limit: http://caissus.gmxhome.de/Partieen/janusgames.htm?0_1665

EdTrice: Thank you for your compliments. But Smirf still is buggy at times. There still is a lot to do.

It is being uploaded to GothicChess.org right now as a .zip file. It will expand to fill 24 MB when unzipped.

This is the PGN loading version of Vortex that also has the 3-piece databases, and much better graphics.

At about 4 PM Eastern Time you should be able to get it from:

http://www.GothicChess.org/vortex.zip

Let me know if you have any problems with the download.

It should be ready 2 hours after the time of this message.

I just downloaded and tested SMIRF 0.50 tonight. It has a pretty cool interface! I like the way the principle variation is displayed now, pouring into a scrolling text area.

Reinhard has done a real nice job with it.

rabbitoid:

The total number of positions we resolve will always be less than the entire state space. For example, in a pawnless database, you only have to place one king on 20 of the 80 squares. This is because any position can be "rotated" to get the king onto one of those squares, either by a horizontal flip, vertical flip, or diagonal flip. You rotate the other pieces along with it, and where they end up is the position you look up in the database. Then you likewise translate that move to the unrotated move on the board.

Once you have one pawn on the board, you lose this 75% reduction symmetry. You can still cut the db in half, by constraining the pawn to the files a through e. If it is on files f through j, you can just flip the position horizontally, and look up that result.

Our tables are truly "distance to mate" and not "distance to conversion". That means the first thing we do in any new database is first generate ALL cpatures into smaller databases, and ADD those "distance to mate" to our positions prior to the capture.

This way, every move in the database is the quickest way to get to the final mate, and not just the quickest way to get to the next subdatabase.

I have seen such "distance to conversion" database play extremely strange moves at times, especially when each side has a pawn.

There could be a mate in N moves, but the pawn can promote in N - k, so the program would make the pawn promoting move (faster conversion than a mate in N), which could allow the game to drag on for many, many more moves.

EdTrice: (and Chessmaster1000) : yes, there are extra figures, but for a single problem, say KQP-KQ, or some such not involving C or A, these don't come into calculation.

I'm not sure how your tables are set up. as for the ones for regular chess, the calculation ends with a capture or conversion, and the table points to a simpler table.

so the "only" difference is the board size, an increase of 100/64 in the number of squares. this is still considerable: for a single table of 5 distinct figures, in reg chess that comes to 64 * 63 * 62 * 61 * 60 ~ 10^9 initial positions, vs 100 * 99 * 98 * 97* 96 ~ 10^10 initial positions for gothic, again, not counting illegal positions, checks or symmetries. that is still a factor of 10. and, of course, the fact that a free central Q has 27 moves in reg chess vs 30 in gothic.

rabbitoid: what makes such a difference to regular chess?

The contribution from the extra squares is not too bad, but in Gothic Chess we have 7 piece types other than the king, whereas chess only has 5. So, in order to solve a "complete set", we have more permutations per database.

With 7 pieces x 2 sides to move, we have 14 database slices to solve to get the 3-piece database.

This grows to (7 x (7 - 1)) x 2 = 84 for the 4-piece database set. The "7 - 1" reflects that there are some databases that are their own "colors reversed" database, suck as King + Queen vs. King + Queen, King + Chancellor vs. King + Chancellor, etc. A black to move position can be looked up even if we solve the database with only having white to move.

Compunding this with the long mating distances, such as some of the ones shown at http://www.gothicchess.org/databases.html and now we need to use 2 bytes per position, instead of one byte per position.

So we have more positions per slice, more slices, and need more storage per position.

rabbitoid:
16 extra squares and 2 new pieces, combined give this result........Very simple.

Just notice that the possible arrangements (without taking into consideration illegal positions and checks) for:
Gothic Chess is: (80!) / ((2^6)·10!·10!·40!) = 10^56
Chess is: (64!) / ((2^6)·8!·8!·32!) = 10^42

A HUGE difference..............!
(Notice that i'm a kind of drunk right now (although i don't hit to walls yet) and the calculations might be a little or more wrong......)

http://www.k4it.de/index.php?topic=egtb&lang=de

EdTrice: what makes such a difference to regular chess? ftp://ftp.cis.uab.edu/pub/hyatt/TB gives full 5 figure tables, and are well on the way to finish 6 figure tables, with pawns included. of the 5 figure tables, the biggest is KRP-KQ, with 250 megs total. the 6 figure tables run into several gigs. do the extra squares account for the difference?

EdTrice: sure okay - really good to know . so I will put the big bag of
bunches of lima bears you have dropped into my direction regarding capablanca-
chess where it indeed belongs ... it's okay we all have our timorous moments. ... ~*~

So with 1-2 machines one would need around 25 years.....
Very dissapointing......

Put another way, if I had 49 machines going at once, I would be able to solve the 6-piece db for Gothic Chess in about a year.

Oh, the expansion rate? The (N + 1) piece is at least 7 times the size of the N piece in terms of nuber of database slices, but for the 6-piece Gothic Chess db, each slice will also be at least twice the size as well, since we need 16 bits per position. The other bloating factor is the number of positions, which will be at least 4o times the number of the 5 piece.

So the 6 piece will be about 7 x 2 x 40 = 560 times the size of the 5-piece.

No i mean the whole size of :
(N+1)-piece = "KNNKN + .... + KBNKA"
against the whole size of:
N-piece = "KNNK + .... + KQAK"

Chessmaster1000: It depends George.

King + N + N vs. King + N is only a few K since it compresses most of the draws. The longest mate is just 8 moves.

K + N + N vs. King + B is also very small.

But King + B + N vs. King + Archbishop is 3.2 GB since there is a mate in 202!

King + Q + P vs. King + Q is over 5 GB because the pawn reduces symmetry and the mate goes out to 268.

Nightstorm: Thanks for the link Nightstorm!

I don't play every chess variant. I play Gothic Chess mostly. I played Janus Chess as an experiment, and I found it "too diagonal" for my tastes.

As I have stated before, prodigious calculation has little to do with excellence in board games. Pattern recognition, having been there before and understanding the road map of what lies ahead -- this is what makes a player better.

Trying a new variant for the first time will not produce any results that relate to performance level that I have already demonstrated.

So no, I decline to participate, for the fourth time.

This has nothing to do with "courage." I hate lima beans. So, I don't eat lima beans. I don't think I would be courageous if I tried them. I would probably just puke, like I did the last time I tried them.

In Chess the following is valid:
A (N+1)-piece tablebase is approximately 60 time larger than the N-piece.
This exists for 3-4-5-6 pieces.
Does this exist for Gothic chess also.....?

(I have the feeling that i have asked this before. Sorry for my bad memory if it's really true)

I want to know if the 6 piece endgames will have any practical importance.......Because if the whole 6-piece is 1 terrabyte then it's obvious that..............

For practical purposes, the 3-piece db version is what you download though. If you want the 4-piece db, I would have to send it on CD. The 4-piece db has roughly 1 billion positions solved, a little too much for a download. The 3-piece is about 1.5 million, and the 5-piece is 300 billion.

ChessCarpenter: I added the hyperlink to the board. I figured it would make it easier for any new players to find out more about the game by having a link to it right here for easy access.

This is the new version of a fanastic program with a very important feature...PGN import! The other new exciting feature is the 4 piece endgame tablebases, so you can practice countless endgame positions with perfect play. There are other new features, as well, so check out GothicChess.org for all your Gothic chess equipment.
By the way Filip has added the hyperlink for Gothic Chess just above for all to go to!!!

CardinalFlight:

First: it is not a forced mate in 13 after the Queen sacrifice......

Second: i think you meant "white" instead of "black". (It is black that has the advantage.....)
If you don't mean that, then i think you are confused......

Nasmichael: I had forgotten about the "Shooting Fish in a Barrel". It started July 20th? Many moons ago. It loks like 6 of us wouldn't be elgible to play because our ratings are outside the range now. I thought I was out of the tournament and hadn't given it much thought, but after seeing your post I went to the tournament chart to see who'd won. There's one game left running. It seems to me that it doesn't matter who wins this game, the winners of the section will be the same. I remember posting on the Feature Request discussion board about moving a tournament wqhen this happens. Quite a few other people posting opinions on it too. IN any case, it would appear that I will be making it to the next round when that last game is finally finished. This is assuming that I under the S-B thingy well enough to know that a three way tie will make all three people advance if each of them beat one of the other's opponent but lost to the other opponent, as is the case here. I'll try to remberhow to move the pieces in Gothic Chess if I do in fact make the next round. :)

Thank you for posting the tournaments. I hope this is one of them stories that you were looking for. I believe the game with me and Mely in that tournament was the best game of Gothic Chess that I've ever played and it was his first loss. I haven't done much since.

Nasmichael: This Nigel Davies was from California, according to his driver's license. I don't believe we had any Grandmasters in tournament at all.

Caissus: ...and CM 1000 also, both Nigel Davies and Nigel Short are GMs, both British as far as I know; the Nigel Davies I was thinking of is also a writer and a correspondence player. I like his style, and his goals in his games. Just curious.

Why dont you guys play a non-rated game where you just agree to play the moves up to the part where the conclusion opinions differ, then fight it out, and let who is right come back for bragging rights?

It is forced. If black deviates from the posted lines then he gets mated sooner.

The person who paid the entrance fee was named Nigel Davies, that is all I know. I don't think he was a local player, I knew all of them.

Hmm, i think you didn't understand what i mean. You said that after your Queen sacrifice there was a mate in 13. I just said that it isn't! Nothing more nothing less........
And what i am saying, is that after the Queen takes the Archbishop there is no mate in 6 that is needed to have a mate in 13 from the point of the Queen sacrifice. White is lost either way and actually Qxf4 is the best move as then the Rook can take the black Bishop too........

Chessmaster1000: But Wizko was already far behind in material and that would have put him hopelessly further behind.

tedbarber:
Hmm, you didn't. You meant the wrong thing........:-)
After the queen sacrifice there wasn't any mate in 13.
For example after 25...Axf4+ if white played 26.Qxf4 there is no mate in less than 20 moves........

Was him really Nigel Short?
Why in the PGN says Nigel Davis?????

Nasmichael: It was Nigel Short ,of course.

EdTrice: Is this GM Nigel, or is it a Philadelphia local Nigel? (Or is that the same thing?)

Chessmaster1000: I did.

I didn't see the game yet, but if someone say "I sacrificed a queen for a mate in 13" it should mean: "I sacrificed a queen and from there a mate in 13 exist" and NOT: "I sacrificed a queen and then i mated in 13 moves".
I doubt you mean the first but we will see..........

CardinalFlight: In game 406415;I sacrificed a queen for a mate in 13.

I thought I had posted this invitation in every chess variant. I don't see it in this board, so I thought that maybe I overlooked to do it, or it got erased.

A tournament has been created to honor Mr. Ed Trice:

http://brainking.com/game/Tournaments?trg=8217

Let's hope Mr. Trice joins every chess variant. His intelligence and courage will be a a great asset in this endeavour.

It's a shame Nigel lost in round 1, I did not get paired with him and he went undefeated after that. His wins were rather impressive, though some of his opening moves were a little off balance.

Was it forced? There are some on my digital cam somewhere.

That's amazing that he sees mate in 8 starting with a queen sac.

Are there any photos of this year's tournament?

At each Gothic Chess tournament, when there is a surplus in advance entries, we have two additional prizes offered. One is the "Brillancy Prize", the other, less stringently applied rules is for the "Wildest Game" Prize.

While the "Brillancy" Prize is voted by a panel on site, the "Wildest" game is voted for by all of the participants after the tournament has ended.

Here is this year's "Wildest Game" winner.

[Event "2005 Philadelphia Open"]
[Site "Phialdelphia, PA"]
[Date "2005.02.17"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Nigel Davies"]
[Black "J.D. Austin"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqckabnr/pppppppppp/10/10/10/10/PPPPPPPPPP/RNB
QCKABNR w KQkq - 0 1"]


1. Nh3 Nc6
2. d4 Nh6
3. d5 Ne5
4. Nc3 d6
5. f3 g6
6. g4 Bd7
7. Af2 Ni4
8. Cg2 Bg7
9. i3 h5
10. gxh5 gxh5
11. Bi2 Aj5
12. O-O O-O
13. Be3 Bh6
14. Qd2 Qc8
15. Ch4 Axh4
16. Axh4 Bxh3
17. Bxh6 Bxi2
18. Bxi7 Bxh1
19. Bxh8 Cxh8
20. Rxh1 Qd7
21. h3 Nh6
22. Aj6+ Kj8
23. Ai5 Ki7
24. Ah4 Kh7
25. Aj6+ Ki6
26. Ah4+ Kh7
27. Aj6+ Kg6
28. Qg5+ Kxg5
29. Ah4+ Kf4
30. e3+ Kxe3
31. Re1+ Kd2
32. Rd1+ Kxc2
33. Ae1+ Kxb2
34. Rb1+ Ka3
35. Ac2#

Nasmichael (4. April 2005, 00:05:01)
Message corrected.

Any favorite Janus games?

Current tournaments:


Birthday Bash ---5 Irishrose
Try something new ---jaha
Summer Time Is Coming --- Irishrose
Spring Is Here ---5 Irishrose
► ALL games for dummies (under 1500 & unrated) #8◄ ---5 BIG BAD WOLF
playing games --5 NikNack
All games tounament you name it,it's there. fun!! -- Universal Eyes
Best of the VERY Best! (All Games!) -- KevJon
All Games for M.M. --Mach Machovic
Chess Variants for Beginners --Seravajan
May Day all games tourny --snowhugs
May Mayhem -- Nirvana
THE HIT MANS OPEN GAMES -- THE HIT MAN
Å -- jaha
NikNack games #6 -- NikNack
maximum do 1500BKR --MJL
NikNack games #8 --NikNack


Of course, I haven't checked all of these sites to see if enough players have signed up to play Janus.
Reply Edit

A tournament has been created to honor Mr. Ed Trice:

http://brainking.com/game/Tournaments?trg=8217

Let's hope Mr. Trice joins. His intelligence and courage will be a a great asset in this endeavour.

Nasmichael: I included Gothic Chess in my tournament selection because I was asked to.

This Friday, "Gothic Chess Live" will debut. It is a separate site with real time play between participants.

Those who wish to give it a test run, send me a PM, I will respond with the link.

To all of those who have the 4-piece database version of Gothic Vortex, there is a .bat file with verification code in place. I discovered one position in the B + N vs. K slice of the database that needed to be recalibrated. There were about 16,000 errors in the Q vs. R database.

I narrowed it down to a post-computation, db compression error.

Therefore, it may or may not have effected others who have generated their own databases.

Send me an email and I will enclose the .bat with instructions on how to verify your dbs.