Smaughster, Blaickner, and all -

GREAT comments Smaughster! The best way to tell if someone is as good as his/her rating is to talk to him/her and find out what he/she knows about the game.

For instance, I could talk until I would bore you all to tears about opening strategy, end game strategy, keystone pairs, triangles, skews, elongated triangles, offensive pairs, etc. at Pente because that is my game and I am one of the best at it.

I also have played some real-time Chess at www.pogo.com. The cheating there is amazing!! I am decent at Chess, U.S. Chess B class over-the-board and a master in postal play so I have a good idea of 'just a few' concepts. :-)

At pogo.com, if I see a player rated over 2100 (about my Chess rating there), I simply ask them what they know about the Najdorf and Sicillin as well as some basic concepts of end game play, which anyone over about 1900 should easily be able to talk about. I'm amazed at how many people don't even know that the Najdorf and Sicillin are OPENINGS!

I'm always polite when asking my questions so the truly good players will sometimes go to great lengths to talk about them and an interesting conversation usually follows. But if they can't answer them, I ask them if they have played in real-time U.S. Chess tournaments. If they haven't or can't quickly come up with a reasonable answer, then I pretty much know they're cheating. If they're bold enough to continue talking, I'll ask them what software they're using. I actually have had TWO tell me!

My point is, Arnie, before accusing someone of something, get more information first instead of saying inflammatory remarks about him/her. If you have substaintial evidence to prove your theory, THEN people will listen to you and not think that you are whining.

One last thing here. I have also had a person accuse me of cheating because something like 15 of my 20 moves in a Pente game matched the best Pente playing software on it's highest level. My comment to that is: If I'm one of the best players and the software is some of the best software, then OF COURSE a high percentage of moves are going to be the same.

So my suggestion would be to ask Blaickner what she knows about the opening, middle, and end-game strategies of Othello/Reversi. If she knows little, you have a case. Otherwise I think that the accusations should stop.


Gary Barnes

Arnie -

I don't know who you think you are! Do you have specific verifiable evidence that Blaickner is cheating? If not, then get the hell off of the discussion board and quit being a sore loser and cry baby.

I don't play Othello/Reversi much and have just now aquired a strategy book for it and may eventually take the game up. But I am the 2-time defending World Email Pente champion and have experienced exactly what you are putting Blaickner through.

I too have run into butts like you who accuse me of using a program or cheating. As a matter of fact, I got so sick of it that I went down to Oklahoma City, Oklahoma and proceeded to kick everyone's butt except DmitriKing whom I tied. This made us both U.S. over-the-board Pente champions. Now everyone can shut up about me using a program. But if I had not had the money to go to Oklahoma City, then people would still be saying the same thing.

The point is, you have NO idea what you're talking about. I don't know Blaickner at all, but she has been VERY good about answering questions and providing information on the board here. Also, it sounds like she is an excellent 1 and/or 5 minute player. If you don't think she is for real, then I would suggest you both find a real-time site where you can play 5 minute games and play a 10-game match. THEN maybe you'll believe that she is for real!


Gary Barnes

To all -

My opinion is the same as I have stated on the Small Pente and Small Keryo Pente discussion boards. The correct rules should be used for the 'main' name of the game, i.e. Reversi 6x6 or Reversi 8x8. If you want to NOT have the opening setup (just like not having an opening restriction in Pente), then separate variants called 'No setup Reversi 8x8' or 'No setup Reversi 6x6' should be created.

On the Pente boards, we HAVE the correct opening restriction on the 'main' name of the game, i.e. the CORRECT rules game is simply called Pente (or Small Pente for a smaller board for WebTV users). For the game without an opening restriction, we have recommended 'no-restriction Pente' as a variant. The same applies to Keryo Pente also.

The reasons here is just as Kitti states. Players that are NEW to the game OR the site become confused as to what the correct rules should be. Reversi IS Othello and should be played by the same rules. To me, the colors don't matter because it's a lot easier for a site operator to keep from becoming confused, but several may disagree about that.

IMHO, the opening setup SHOULD be enforced on Reversi 6x6, 8x8, and 10x10. But as I found out by having people hand my head to me, NOT allowing players to play WITHOUT an opening restriction (or setup in this case) is NOT good. So I would suggest separate variants be created for playing without the opening setup. PLEASE know that I DO NOT want to take away anyone's fun here. That is why I am suggesting the separate variants.

Another BIG reason for this is so that LARGE championships can be played at this site in the future. To have large championships (we are wanting the WORLD championships here in Pente), the CORRECT rules must be enforced by a game that is appropriately named. In other words, some people would find it annoying to have Reversi (Othello) championships at a site where the correct rules for the game is in a game called 'Restriction reversi' or 'Setup reversi' or something similar.

IMO, having an OPTION on a single game is NOT good. It mixes the ratings together and can cause LARGE amounts of confusion when entering tournaments because MANY players will NOT be looking for it. Therefore, I believe that separate and appropriately named variants is best.


Gary

Goofball -

This is not quite what I was after. I did not state that I was dissatisfied with the game due to opening rules because I know too little about it to be dissatisfied or satisfied one way or another.

Let me re-explain as follows:

Request:
That top players speak up about what the CORRECT opening rules for the game are. That way beginning players are aware that they are the official rules and they will learn strategy with the correct rules. It is learning the correct rules that allows FAR more players to compete equally with one another.

I would not request this myself because I do NOT know how OFFICIAL those rules are. I just want to make sure that IF they ARE official and have been decided upon by a large governing body of the game (such as FIDE in Chess) that they are put in place so that everyone in on the same page.

It is NOT my place to request or dictate that the OFFICIAL rules be followed in a game that I don't know much about. It is up to high-level players such as Blaickner and ChessTiger.

Explanation of 'forced win':
In Chess or Pente, when someone says that he wins by force in 3 moves, it means EXACTLY that. By FORCE means that it DOES NOT MATTER how the defense moves. With BEST defense, the offense wins in 3 moves. In Chess, it would be referred to as a 'Mate in 3'.

Further specifics:
I will refer you back to ChessTiger's post from 1/15/03 that stated the following:

"Just thought (in case it is not known) that you might like to know that the 6x6 version of reversi has been solved (assuming optimal play from the opponent.
This is the work Dr Joel Feinstein from University of Nottingham, and former British champion of othello. White wins 20-16 with the diagonal setup, and 19-17 with the horizontal/vertical setup. This is of course when both play optimally!"

What he is stating is amazing but not unprecendented. GoMoku has been proven as a forced win in 24 moves for player 1! THAT is JUST as amazing if not more so.

I will explain what this means in more detail. What Dr. Feinstein has proven is that it doesn't matter HOW black moves, if he plays the VERY BEST defense possible, the best he can do is LOSE 20-16 or 19-17 to white if white plays PERFECT lines. It may sound strange that ANYONE could play PERFECT lines, but as you advance up the ranks and study ANY game, you will quickly be able to see a LARGE portion of the BEST lines as you play games with your opponents, especially in simpler version of the game like the 6x6 version of Reversi.

So to quote your statement, it does NOT depend on how Black moves, white will ALWAYS win AT LEAST 19-17 or 20-16 (depending on the opening setup) on the 6x6 board, IF he plays PERFECTLY.

If this is not clear, try the following:
Play tic-tac-toe on a 9x9 board, but do not change the rules. Both sides must STILL get 3 in a row to win. Now have player 1 play his first move in the center. You will quickly see that he wins in 3 moves, no matter how player 2 moves and it is easy to see PERFECT moves for him. So that is referred to as a forced win in 3 moves by player 1.

Now try the slightly more diffult same thing but make the winner the first to get FOUR in a row. The first player wins by force in 7 moves. Although it's not easy to see PERFECT moves for player 1 at first glance, VERY simple patterns can be demonstrated and shown VERY easily to players of all skill levels.

The same applies to MANY games of skill, albeit on a MUCH more complex level. It's just FAR more difficult to see. But high-level players and mathematicians will sometimes come up with a proof for a game sooner or later like they have done in 6x6 Reversi. What this means is that if you played a 6x6 Reversi playing computer that made PERFECT moves as white and you played black, you would lose 100% of the time, even if you were the BEST Reversi player in the world!

So I hope that clears that up. So what I am asking players such as Blaickner and ChessTiger, is the following:
Is it player 1 or player 2 that wins by force 19-17 or 20-16 in 6x6 Reversi?

I am asking this because I am a 'student' of other games of skill, especially Pente, and am ALWAYS interested in the PROOF of any game.


Thank you,
Gary Barnes

Hi all -

I am not a good Reversi (Othello) player, but I AM a VERY good Pente player. In Pente, there has been a HUGE discussion, sometimes VERY heated, about the opening rules (actually a restriction) on the 4 discussion boards there.

It is the opinion of MOST experienced and/or top Pente players in THAT game that the opening rules SHOULD be set up correctly like the official rules to the game. Otherwise beginners that learn the game incorrectly will be at a SEVERE disadvantage when they play someone with the correct opening rules in tournament play.

Based on what I am reading here from top players like Blaickner and by reading the rules in the version of Othello that I have at my home, the diagonal opening setup SHOULD be set and fixed.

It is my personal opinion that it is UNFAIR to beginning players to learn the game incorrectly because they will be resistant to learning it correctly in the future and will learn incorrect attacking strategies.

Interestingly, Harley, who is a beginning Pente player and who has sided with experienced players in Pente because of the official rules of the game, prefers starting with no opening setup in Reversi.

I believe if a couple of you top Reversi players will state MUCH more loudly that the diagonal opening setup is the OFFICIAL rules for the game, then she and perhaps MOST other players including beginners will agree that the diagonal opening setup should be fixed.

THEN if both experienced and beginning players MOSTLY agree that the official rules are the best way to go, then I'm confident that Fencer will make that change.

One suggestion that I might make for everyone's discussion here, whether you be a top player or a beginner. That is to refer to the sides as 'player 1' (the one who makes the first move)or 'player 2' (the one moving 2nd). It is clear by reading the posts here that in serious competition, black always goes first. But on this site, white always goes first in ALL games. I can see why a site owner would do this to prevent his own confusion. Since I have not played the game very much but am VERY experienced in games like Chess and Pente where white always goes first in serious competition, I became confused by several posts that referred to black or white.

I was ESPECIALLY interested to hear that one side wins 19-17 or 20-16 BY FORCE with optimal play by both sides in 6x6 Reversi. Very good piece of work there! But I am confused, it was stated that WHITE wins 20-16 or 19-17. Is that player 1 or player 2? Since black usually starts in Reversi in serious competition, I initially took that to mean that player 2 wins by force. But I am surprised that it would be the 2nd player since after all, he goes 2nd! So maybe it is player 1. Can you please clarify if it is the player to move first (player 1) or it is player 2 that wins in the 6x6 game by force?

One last thing that I want to reiterate here. I think that it would be a GREAT dis-service to beginning players to NOT have the correct opening rules to the game.



Thanks,
Gary Barnes