Jim Dandy: Impossible

Artful Dodger: You are aware that "their god" is also the Christian and Jewish GOD, are you?

Obamacare supposed to create new jobs, reduce costs, lower the deficit and improve access?
But, no jobs created, costs are up and will rise even more, the deficit is ballooning, and access to a care provider is projected to get scarce. At best, access will be limited and wait times will be longer (in many cases waiting lists will decide who gets what care and when).

So much for improvements.

And even still, there will be MILLIONS with no health care coverage.

What a waste.

Pew: Jews Leaving Dems
Clarice Feldman
It turns out the Obamessiah really can pull off a miracle. Charles Blow of the NYT reports on a Pew poll which shows that Obama has performed the impossible. He's breaking the traditional hold the Democratic Party has had on Jewish voters:
... the number of Jews who identify as Republican or as independents who lean Republican has increased by more than half since the year he was elected. At 33 percent it now stands at the highest level since the data have been kept. In 2008, the ratio of Democratic Jews to Republican Jews was far more than three to one. Now it's less than two to one.

This is no doubt a reaction, at least in part, to the Obama administration having taken a hard rhetorical stance with Israel, while taking "special time and care on our relationship with the Muslim world," as Robert Gibbs, the White House press secretary, put it in June. If that sounds like courtship, it is.

(It should be noted that the Pew poll was taken before Obama's bold support for the right of Muslims to build a community center and mosque a few blocks north of ground zero.)

Ferris Bueller: BS and rubbish. Wake up people. um, it was ISLAMIC terrorists - MUSLIMS - that perpetrated this horrific act. They did this in the name of their god. And, this is par for the course with these extremist Muslims. It's not an isolated case but terrorist act in a long line of terrorist actions perpetuated by these extremest Muslims.

And what were the main-stream Muslims saying and doing in the aftermath of the 911 attacks?

Nothing.

YOu never make a solid argument. You just produce blather that is meaningless. What the hell does "ratcheting up the rhetoric" really mean? Can you spell it out or are you always going to hide behind comments devoid of substance and argument? I like to see you ONCE back up your position with a well-reasoned argument supported with SOME EVIDENCE. Are you capable of that?

I would like to correct a post I made....1st hung parliament since WW2 not WW1....it is up to either party to now woo the independants of which there are 4...I don't know what happens if neither side can get the numbers to govern...I don't think they would have another election, but then....who knows?

Jim Dandy:  Good point.

Ferris Bueller: Many citizens of other countries other than the USA died on 9/11 also.I wonder if any international contributions have been discussed

(V): I agree, and the right of Israel to exist has to be acknowledged

Ferris Bueller:

> It has been 10 years and no decision has been made about how the victims should be honored in the space of the Twin Towers.

I think the real problem is that the Towers sat on one of the choicest pieces of real estate in the world. There were those who expected that the site would be rebuilt with even bigger towers for bankers to make more money. Now they see a memorial site and there is no profit in that.

I think that this is an instance where racism has reared its ugly head behind a mask called "the United States is a Christian nation." It is like saying "X is an Islamic nation and now these Christians want to build a church here." It is all about extremism and prejudice.

I think that the greatest memorial the world could build there is a monument against war. If a lesson should have been learned it is that war and violence beget war and violence. In 2014 we will celebrate 100 years since the start of WW I, what was called "the war to end all wars". I think a memorial commemorating WW I and the tragedy of 911 would be the most appropriate thing. 911 is testament to how the lessons of WW I were never learned. A memorial against war could at least show that some of the lessons have been learned.

Ferris Bueller: To me that is the utmost of compliments.

Artful Dodger: That was back before the party's switch around wasn't it? Republican became Democrat n' Democrat became Republican as we know them today.

Artful Dodger:  Your constant farts here really "crack" me up.

Tuesday:  #10 on Roger Ebert's list, his op-ed piece, seems to allude to something important here.  It has been 10 years and no decision has been made about how the victims should be honored in the space of the Twin Towers.  There have been endless political debates, designs, etc about what should be done here.  There is no space to collectively commemorate the victims of this horrible act.  I think if such a place existed, the intensity of the debate over the mosque would have been lessened, and calmer heads might have prevailed.

Tuesday:

Woodrow Wilson was a Democrat AND a Progressive.

nuff said

Tuesday: That may be your experience but it's not mine.

Tuesday: Bull Pucky. You don't even watch Beck. And I DO. This statement is a lie. So there.

Übergeek 바둑이: Bill Clinton was one of the few fiscally smart presidents. But was a wasteful spender. Cutting taxes works. But increasing spending does not. Anytime the government spends money, it's usually NOT GOOD for the economy.

Pedro Martínez: 70 Democrats currently serving in the Congress are members of the Socialist Party. At least they have the guts to put their cards on the table. The other socialist dems are still in the closet.

Bernice: Definitely wouldn't go well with conservative churches but liberal churches would probably embrace it.

Artful Dodger:
> Libs always run things into the ground. Their philosophy is wrong.
> Republicans loose out when they violate their principles of low spending, limited
> government, and deference to the states.

Historically, it was always Republicans who lead massive increases in the deficit and national public debt, usually by giving tax cuts away while increasing massively on defense spending. We can look at the Regan and both Bush administrations for that.

Democrats are more of a mixed bag. Bill Clinton finished his term in office with the first surplus since WW II. Barack Obama is seeing a massive increase in the deficit, mostly due to the bailout for the banks (which in fairness was George W. Bush's last act as president, and was carried over into the new administration). That ill-fated healthcare plan is going to cost a lot, and the only way to take care of that is to take away the tax cuts that the Bush administration gave to the rich.

In reality, both political parties are full of "brilliant" and "expensive" ideas. I see Democrats and Republicans as two sides of the same coin. Both parties represent the interests of monopolies and the corporate elite. The difference being mostly on who they represent. However, deep at heart both parties exist to protect the interests of mega-capitalists and the American corporate elite.

In that sense, to say that the Democrats are socialists is like saying that the Communist Party of the People's Republic of China is capitalist. The US democrats don't even come close to Europe's Social Democrat parties.

Pedro Martínez: looking at the definition in Wikipedia, you nailed that

Artful Dodger: I have always found it interesting that North American liberals are actually not liberals, and on the contrary, they are socialists.

Bernice: Really? For the first time in such a long time? Interesting… hung Parliament is quite common here. As far I can see, the predictions say that Liberals should take the PM seat though… so it seems you're going to have your favorite politician there…

Bad news for australia.....HUNG Parliament

finals wont be known for a couple days, but looks pretty certain.....first time since ww1....

Jim Dandy: In the end regardless of who and why .."she did this.. he did that"... a line needs to be drawn. They've been working 18 months to get these talks up.

Artful Dodger: it will be interesting to see how the australian public take to a self confessed atheist...Joolya and she hates kids ROFLMBO....AND she is shacked up with her guy, so when she goes into Parliament house to live she will be living in sin...there will be a lot of firsts if she takes power (voted in)....she refused to go into parliament house until she was voted in by the australian people. (her words)...times they are a changing....One thing is for sure it wouldnt go down too well in "churchy" USA.

Bernice: Yeah, I still am confused by your political terms. Wonder why they mean such different things? Here small government and fiscal conservatives are the Conservative party. They typicaly oppose abortion and entitlements. Libs the opposite. Sometimes the lines are blurred which is what many Repubs did during the Bush admin. For example, bush was a big spender. Not the way of the Conservative party.

Pedro Martínez: yes but the 2 libs are vastly different I think LOL....but must admit to knowing nothing of american politics except there are a lot of idiots same as here....both in Govt and out of Govt.

LOL, I like this conversation. Libs vs. Libs.

Libs always run things into the ground. Their philosophy is wrong. Republicans loose out when they violate their principles of low spending, limited government, and deference to the states.

Artful Dodger: oh well by the end of the day will tell us if we have our first elected PM in Julia Gillard, or Joolya as she has been nic'd or the Libs return to power.

Bernice: that's a bit of a problem here too. People don't really trust the Repubs and in fact, they have less trust for them than they do the Dems. But the liberal spending and runaway govt isn't flying with the majority. Obama is still strong but losing ground. AND his fellow Dems are all in trouble. It's a tough year to be a Dem.

Pedro Martínez: yes me too sadly

Bernice: I hear what you're saying, but you'd have to torture me to make me vote for the left… We also have a moronic leader of the strongest right-wing party here, but getting them elected was still better than the other option… :)

Pedro Martínez: I have to agree with you but Brer Rabbit (Tony Abbot) isn't the most charismatic/likeable person either ROFL

Bernice: Liberals…

Election day here today....what a farce.....
do you vote for the party that was voted out 2 1/2 yrs ago, but I might add left millions in the coffers to enable us to get through the recession virtually unscathed and whose leader is Tony ABbot...OR, do you vote for the current party, Labour, who has our first woman as a leader but her predecesor Kevin Rudd, who has spent all the money and gotten us into debt....people think they are great because they got a "free" handout of a couple thousand dollars (which sent the country nearly broke) or do you vote for the Liberals whose leader is an idiot....John Howard resigned unfortunately :(
We have preferential voting here which means you have to be careful whom you vote for as their preferences could be with someone you don't like :(
such a cunundrum (sp)

(V):

Jim Dandy: ...??? At the Balfour declaration?? *ducks*

(V): Don't get me started

Artful Dodger: You forgot to pay for the rich folks tax cut. They must be surely broke by now... NOT!!!