The Col: Communities were acting to defend their property.. some shops grouped together and hired security.

.... The problem was that the police initially were told not to engage looters!! News of that spread.

Artful Dodger: If your point is you don't need guns.. yes. Unless you live in a state of constant fear of any assailant having a gun... then I see the need for choice.

... Guns do make killing easier, and more likely. I see some 'family feud' ended up with several dead through gunfire in the US..... that is something we don't need commonplace in the UK.

The Col:  good article

(V): That rather makes my point. It isn't only guns that can do violence. Actually, guns don't "do" violence, people do. Guns likely make it easier.

Artful Dodger: Most household items have a potential to be a weapon. or... a worrier... as in make the attacker nervous and doubt themselves.

Vikings: That depends on what they want to achieve. Being the CEO of a big multinational can be beyond reach of what most call "The American Dream".

"If a person choosed to get a simple blue collar job, they have no one else but themselves to blame for their plight in life"

Simple blue collar... our houses are dependant on blue collar skills. I know guys who can't do school, but they can do a mean wall.

And CAMERON is promptly running a riot. To cut internet to "agitators". But who defines what a "agitator" is. I am a agitator. I want this sick politician to wake up promptly (in my dreams).

If you know german, read this comment: http://bkd.posterous.com/der-letzte-eintrag-von-heute

Who is in amazement about the riots, but wasn't about the brutality of share holders? The significant looters are rich, you are not misled by a cravat, are you.

Basically these suburbs need to look for their own, but it is inappropriate to cut them the ties to the center of society. These ties need to be restored quickly, less prejudices is a good starting point, there are families living who deserve (and are promised) a dignified life.

Riots like this where only a question of time, I know quite a few good articles about the problems of this youth from the past 10 years, these kids have always been a point of interest to me.

We know that these suburbs are neglected. They need more than their youth centers back. The British society has debts towards these regions. That's the much more important discussion as how to respond to the violence. I'm not saying it's the usual house owner having these debts, no no, it's the Boris Johnson kind of dudes, the David Camerons. They need to get tough toward the people who have become too rich the past years, toward the people who force cuts for the sole purpose to benefit cash in their own pockets. Yes, these rich who transport the lie that reducing taxes does create jobs. It's their throat we need to go for with cleverness, not with baseball bats, although that would be great.

(V): Yeah, that's what I'm talking about! In the right hands, those can be very effective weapons. Plus they are good for taking hikes.

Übergeek 바둑이:
You are right that nothing good can come out of it, but you also prove my point, it is all about morrals. These people have all the time in the world to be destructive and blame others just like your examples, but if you study rich or well off people today, you would find out that getting there is very obtainable, and coming up with a plan to do so is easy, the only hard part is the fact that they would have to SPEND THEIR TIME WORKING ON IT JUST LIKE THE WELL OFF PEOPLE DO.
If a person choosed to get a simple blue collar job, they have no one else but themselves to blame for their plight in life, and before you pull the "what about the dissadvantaged" card, I am not talking about them, You don't see one dissavantaged person in those protest, just people who think they should be "GIVEN" more.

Artful Dodger: ....old English tradition. Staff. It gives good reach at 5-6 foot in length. Handy.

(V): I don't own a gun either but I do have a samurai sword

Artful Dodger: In the UK he'd probably get off, if it can be proven he had due cause with the killing. Such is the law here. The gun will be confiscated though... or at the very least rendered unusable.

I can by law protect my property and family here. By the nature of little gun crime. I don't need a gun.

I'm also aware of some stats over how killing people affects people. About 90%+ are affected by it and can lead to trauma. A small percentage are those who are not affected mentally. Then there is the small percentage who enjoy killing... they generally end up in the army, dead or in jail.

rod03801: Stopping illegal ownership is impossible. With people being able to take replica's and turn them into live arms, smuggling, etc.

"in a place that has made that silly choice, isn't it?" ... don't get.

Übergeek 바둑이: "..rioting and looting to get what the middle class has.. is a side effect of anticommunism."

Are you sure about that? I was under the impression communism is fueled by resentment over what the middle and upper classes have. Without the coveting of what others have there is no motivation to 'divide the spoils'. Communism can only work when a small group of people are able to convince a majority that they are entitled to what someone else has worked for.

I'm not surprised by the 30% gun ownership figure, but it does sound a little misleading. I would expect a higher percentage in rural communities where a police response would not be as quick. That makes sense. But still I have to wonder how they arrived at what implies a nearly one out three gun ownership figure. It seems like an unusually high number. btw, one of the reasons we have a constituional right to own a weapon is to make sure that if our government ever does become totalitarian (the founding fathers were looking ahead) the average citizen would be able to protect himself against government sanctioned muggers.

Jimmy Carter's starting to look better
Joey Porter






In the late 1970s a peanut farmer from Georgia was our President.

On Sunday morning he walked to church with a Bible under his arm to teach his Sunday school class at a Baptist church.

His brother hawked Billy Beer and his mother was attacked by a rabbit in a row boat. His wife conveyed the grace of southern gentility.

When the hostages were taken he burrowed into the White House never leaving the DC area. He did not want to be accused of not caring about our national crisis.

When the price of gas raised to the unbelievable cost of one dollar a gallon he championed coal gasification and shale oil projects to make us energy independent .

When he spoke of the spirit malaise in America we knew he was right. ( We also knew he was the source of much of the malaise)

When a rescue mission by our troops failed he notified our nation and he took his medicine as we took ours.

Now we have a community organizer as our President.

He seldom attends church and when he does it espouses black liberation theology.

His family uses Air Force One as a shuttle to one exotic vacation locale to the next. His wife preaches the virtues of fresh vegetables to children while noshing on burgers in private.

When the stock market tumbled and our bond rating was down graded he continued to attend fund raisers and play golf.

When the price of gas approached gas approached $4.00 he did nothing but continue to tie the hands of domestic energy producers.

When he spoke of shared sacrifice and evils of tax breaks for corporate jets. We simply just turned off the TV set.

Ah Yes ...President Jimmy Carter.... Our memories of him are getting fonder every day

(V): A couple of guys break into my house thinking I'm an easy target cuz I'm an old fart. I pull out my semi-auto and hold the guys, with the threat of their death should they move, until the police arrive. They are both armed.

ALL that matters to me is my gun stopped these bass turds from hurting my family.

But guns are much much more to Americans than protection from bad guys. I would say it's a small slice of a very big pie.

My brother in law has a consealed permit and carries his gun where ever he goes. I pity the bad guy who tries to do violence around him. He's a crack shot.

(V): I agree that you have far less gun crime. But you also have some politicians and prosecutes that go after the innocent to protect the sacred gun law. If I'm a prosecutor and a victim shoots someone threatening his property and family but uses an unregistered gun, I'm going to say that I understand why he fought back but to please register his gun now. I'd give him a week and then confiscate the gun if he didn't comply. But I wouldn't arrest him. We have stupid prosecutors like that in the US as well. The law serves the people and not the other way around.

Übergeek 바둑이: I don't agree that violence is the driving force behind their profits. Most people who own guns don't ever use them except at the firing range. Violence may be a social factor but so what? People get stabbed all the time too. But certainly violence isn't the driving force behind the sale of knives.

Here's a fact often overlooked. Just remember: dead is dead

"According to Statistics, Facts and Quotes there were 30,694 gun-related deaths in the US in 2005 vs Fatal Car Accident, Crash Statistics: Stats Auto, Traffic, Car, Collision, Traffic showing 43,443 vehicular fatalties that same year. So guns overall are about 71% as deadly as vehicles in the US."

We value our freedoms in the US. I've lots of friends with guns and they've never shot anyone. It's a constitutional right to own a gun. It should stay that way.

Vikings:

> The violent actions of the have-not's against the have's, go back to Cain and Abel, rioting in the UK started long before Margret Thatcher, It's a moral fault, not a political fault

As always, it is not as simple as it looks. After WWII the UK had to rebuild its economy. As the economy recovered many people were left behind while the middle class did better than ever. When Margaret Tatcher cfame into power the world was in the grip of the Cold War. Western countries replied to the centrally-planned economy of the Soviet Union with supply-side economics (Reaganomics, trickle down economics or whatever it might be called). Supply side economics was very good at maximizing the profits of big corporations, but it slowly eroded purchasing power from the lower segments of society. Then the early 1990s saw the worst recession since the Great Depression and unemployment increased not only in the UK but in the entire western world.

As the new technologies emerged over the last 20 years a new wave of consumer goods hit the markets and the low-income working classes have struggled to keep up with the perceived need to buy those products. We also have had changes in how children are exposed to violence and sex. The Internet, Video games and movies have desensitized youth to violence.

The end of the Cold War also left an ideological void. In the past the working classes were guided by communist principles such as better working conditions, income equality, worker's rights, etc. Marxism (whether we like it or not) gave the working class an ideological compass. The fall of the Soviet Union meant that communism was discredited as an ideology. The working class lost a viable and valid channel for social discontent. Consumerism was sold as a cure for social and income inequality. As long as the working class has enough money for Walmart and Macdonalds then the working class has "nothing: to complain about.

The riots then are fuelled by several factors:

- A culture of desensitization to violence and sexual objectification
- Income inequality (a perception of social disadvantage) and social inequality (a perception of racism)
- A lack of an outlet for social discontent
- A lack of ideological compass in the working class
- Consumerism and the inability of the poor to fully partake in it
- Unemployment among youths and immigrants

I am sure there are other factors too. Regardless of the factors involved, wanton anarchy is never justified. Protests are supposed to be constructive processes that lead to positive social change. These riots lead to nothing but a radicalization in thinking that justifies oppressive measures (think guns, water cannons, mass arrests, etc.) These riots are destructive at every level. Nothing good can come out of this.

(V): That list certainly doesn't prove your premise in the subject line. I doubt anyone has said they stop all killings.

And interesting how guns being "banned" didn't stop those ones either, in a place that has made that silly choice, isn't it?

Here is a snapshot timeline of some of the worst shooting incidents carried out by one or two gunmen around the world in the last 20 years:

April 1982 - SOUTH KOREA - Police officer Woo Bum Kong went on a drunken rampage in Sang-Namdo with rifles and hand grenades, killing 57 people and wounding 38 before blowing himself up.

August 19, 1987 - BRITAIN - Michael Ryan, a 27-year-old gun fanatic rampaged through the English town of Hungerford, killing 16 people and wounding 11 before shooting himself.

July 1989 - FRANCE - A French farmer shot and killed 14 people including members of his family in the village of Luxiol, near the Swiss border. He was wounded and captured by police.

December 1989 - CANADA - A 25-year-old war movie fan with a grudge against women shot dead 14 young women at the University of Montreal, then killed himself.

November 1990 - NEW ZEALAND - A gun-mad loner killed 11 men, women and children in a 24-hour rampage in the tiny New Zealand seaside village of Aramoana. He was killed by police.

September 1995 - FRANCE - A 16-year-old youth ran amok with a rifle in the town of Cuers, killing 16 people and then himself after an argument with his parents.

March 13, 1996 - BRITAIN - Gunman Thomas Hamilton burst into a primary school in the Scottish town of Dunblane and shot dead 16 children and their teacher before killing himself.

April 1999 - USA - Two heavily-armed teenagers went on a rampage at Columbine High School in Littleton, Denver, shooting 13 students and staff before taking their own lives.

July 1999 - USA - A gunman killed nine people at two brokerages in Atlanta, after apparently killing his wife and two children. He committed suicide five hours later.

June 2001 - NEPAL - Eight members of the Nepalese Royal family were killed in a palace massacre by Crown Prince Dipendra who later turned a gun on himself and died few days later. His youngest brother also died later raising the death toll to 10.

April 26, 2002 - GERMANY - In Erfurt, eastern Germany, 19-year-old Robert Steinhauser opened fire after saying he was not going to take a maths test. He killed 12 teachers, a secretary, two pupils and a policeman at the Gutenberg Gymnasium, before killing himself.

October 2002 - USA - John Muhammad and Lee Malvo killed 10 people in sniper-style shooting deaths that terrorized the Washington, D.C., area.

April 16, 2007 - USA - Virginia Tech, a university in Blacksburg, Virginia, became the site of the deadliest rampage in U.S. history when a gunman killed 32 people and himself.

November 7, 2007 - FINLAND - Pekka-Eric Auvinen killed six fellow students, the school nurse and the principal and himself with a handgun at the Jokela High School near Helsinki.

September 23, 2008 - FINLAND - Student Matti Saari opened fire in a vocational school in Kauhajoki in northwest Finland, killing nine other students and one male staff member before killing himself.

March 11, 2009 - GERMANY - A 17-year-old gunman dressed in black combat gear killed nine students and three teachers at a school near Stuttgart. He also killed one other person at a nearby clinic. He was later killed in a shoot-out with police. Two additional passers-by were killed and two policemen seriously injured, bringing the death toll to 16 including the gunman.

June 2, 2010 - BRITAIN - Gunman Derrick Bird opened fire on people in towns across the rural county of Cumbria. Twelve people were killed and 11 injured. Bird also killed himself.

August 30, 2010 - SLOVAKIA - A gunman shot dead six members of a Roma family and another woman in the Slovak capital Bratislava before killing himself. Fourteen more people were wounded.

July 22, 2011 - NORWAY - Police seize a gunman, identified as a 32-year-old Norwegian, who killed at least 84 people at a youth summer camp of Norway's ruling political party, on the small, holiday island of Utoeya. Anders Behring Breivik is later charged with the killings, as well as with an earlier bombing in the centre of Oslo which killed at least seven people.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/timeline-mass-shooting-incidents-last-20-years-085556620.html

Vikings: We can't blame *cough* "Cain and Abel" for what is happening today. It's neither a moral or political fault.. but both.

Some of the areas are being hard hit by cuts, yet we see politicians, police, bankers, corporations all sc**wing us over. Years of bad policies that have favoured those with money.. and thanks to Maggie, house prices gone through the roof despite the recession due to gazumping being practised and allowed to be practised under her government.

Plus other policies that prevented the Local councils investing money they did gain from the sell off of council property back into more housing... leading to a political good year in terms of 'it looks good' but bad long term levels of social housing.

Artful Dodger: But in the UK as guns are a rarity when it comes to crime... we don't need guns to defend ourselves. We have the right to defend our property, even to make 'booby traps' or otherwise make burglars lives ... unpleasant.

"one guy in the UK ran over three people in his car killing all three of them! That's just ONE car and ONE hit. No gun can do that. "

Oh yes one gun can... some can take out a small group with one shot. But with guns, most have a number of rounds. Some automatic assault weapons can be fitted with 150 round mags.

.. Or a automatic shotgun with a 30 round mag that fires them off in a few seconds.

Übergeek 바둑이: The violent actions of the have-not's against the have's, go back to Cain and Abel, rioting in the UK started long before Margret Thatcher, It's a moral fault, not a political fault

Update concerning national unrest

Assistant Chief Constable Nick Baker, from Staffordshire Police, said:

“Tuesday was a fairly normal night in terms of incidents dealt with in Staffordshire. However, we did get more calls than normal from members of our communities concerned about false rumours of disorder

“There were lots of visible police patrols on duty throughout the evening.
Our officers have been spending time speaking to our communities and promptly challenging any behaviour which may threaten the peace.

“We are working hard to reassure our communities. Hundreds of leaflets have been delivered across the county to homes and businesses. We have been and will continue to use social media including Facebook and Twitter to keep people informed.

Many thousands of Staffordshire residents are now receiving regular updates from across the county via social media.

“We will continue to work with our colleagues regionally and importantly work with our communities in Staffordshire to keep them safe.

“People are encouraged to visit facebook.com/staffordshirepolice or follow @staffspolice on Twitter to get updates.”

Two ways of looking at it. It is a good thing and yet should police be spending more time on the streets than updating on Twitter etc?

I want them to do both.

Übergeek 바둑이: You have my vote

Artful Dodger:

> I'll bet those three dead guy would have like to have had a gun to protect themselves.

Dont' get me wrong. I entirely agree that people have a right to protect themselves. The point I was trying to make is that gun manufacturers and sellers make a huge profit. Nobody even talks about how violence drives their profits. All i was pointing too was that guns would not be a problem if they didn't get manufactured in the first place. Of course it is naive to think weapons manufacture will ever end. We will kill each other with guns as long as human beings are animals, or worse than animals.

To make another point, this is something I wrote in a game I am playing with Welsh Rugby Fan. It had to do with my comment that curfews and shooting on sight were used by the Nazis.

"Oh, I entirely agree. Specially when the rioting accomplishes nothing. There is such a thing as valid political protest and riots that lead to political change for the better. These rioters of today are just hooligans bent on theft and destruction. They have no ideological or political objectives. These riots are just like the movie Harry Brown. "In Ireland the people had a cause, but these animals do it just for fun." A few years later we see exactly the same kind of destructive behaviour. Just for fun. Rebels without a cause or ideology.

As for me, I think shooting accomplishes little. I think forced labour teaches people a lot. Once captured, they should be made to work digging in construction sites until they pay for the damage they have done. At this point I can say "Stalin tried that one!"

There is one thing I am not liberal about and that is crime punishment. I believe in gulags and chain gangs digging roadside trenches. I believe in the death penalty and I think it is underused. I also think prisoners should pay their own keep, instead of having taxpayers house them and feed them. Hence the forced labour comment. I think shooting the rioters accomplishes little, but capturing them and having them work to rebuild the burned buildings and compensate the victims sounds good to me. This is the one thing in which my left wing morals leave me. I think it is a good thing I have no political power!

Iamon lyme:

> some kind of tension has obviously been brewing for some time.

Divisions of social class, income inequality, unemployment among youth and harship in the immigrant community are a legacy tht goes back to the Margaret Tatcher years, and even earlier. This is a problem that has been in the making for decades. People in the the riot areas of the UK (as in most other places in the world) feel that they can effect no political change through the electoral system. Since communism died the wroking class has no ideological compass. instead of protesting for legitimate reasons, they are rioting and looting to get what the middle class has. This is a side effect of anticommunism. Anticommunism took the ideology out of social protest, and left in its wake an ideological void. Now people don't protest about issues that matter and there is no real avenue for social discontent.


> btw are you sure about that 30% gun ownership in the US?

In answer to your question:

"In 1995, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms estimated that the number of firearms available in the US was 223 million. About 25% of the adults in the United States personally own a gun, the vast majority of them men. About half of the adult U.S. population lived in households with guns. Less than half of gun owners say that the primary reason they own a gun is for self-protection against crime, reflecting a popularity of hunting and sport-shooting among gun owners."

That was 1995. After 9-11 gun possession increased since many people bought firearms to protect themselves from terrorism.

300 million people. 223 million firearms. It is a staggering statistic.

Bernice: Yes I know, I was talking about Stoke-on-Trent. Most people I know live in Stoke-on-Trent. I know there was trouble in other areas.

Mousetrap: here is what you said...
Bernice: There has been some riots yes but nothing the police cannot deal with. Most of it is rumour spreading via facebook and not rioting on streets***......it was the no rioting that bothered me..you said some riots and then said "not rioting on streets"...there was heaps of it :( and funnily (sp) enough I havent seen anything on facebook.

Bernice: I did not say it was not too much trouble I said Facebook was spreading rumours about areas where I live saying there was trouble when there was not.
Of course there was trouble in London. I did not say there wasnt. I said London was a big city.

The riots have already led to a series of domestic football matches being called off, including Carling Cup ties at West Ham, Charlton, Crystal Palace and Bristol City.

Pedro Martínez: Yeah. If that was the response in a few days, everybody would stay home. The only reason the thugs keep coming out is there are no real consequences. We need, Dirty Harry, Rambo, and Zorro (put the "Z" right smack on their backside!)

Pedro Martínez: ROFL @ AD and Pedro ROFLMBO

“Is that Norway?”
“Yeah.”
“This is UK.”
“Yeah?”
“We need to borrow someone…”

Bernice: Yeah. I think there will always be conflicts. And like you say, a gun isn't the only weapon that can kill people.

Tonight will tell the tale. Let's see how Britain handles the rioters tonight. I hope they kick some major butt.

Now wouldn't it been nice if a car load of Navy Seals, experts in the martial arts, were to drive through an area and be stopped by a few thugs. Then the seals emerge from the vehicle (the windows were tinted dark) and each thug is grabbed by the throat. Then two seals emerge from the trunk and they proced to beat the living tar out of the thugs. This scene is repeated over and over again.

How many times that night do you think the words, "Oh Sh*&!!!" were said that night?

Artful Dodger: and of course they ARE fighting the Irish....well there are still idiots with bombs etc.......
but it is the UK, and nothing bad happens over there like it does in USA....YEAH RIGHT...........

Iamon lyme: In a perfect world, it would be nice if we didn't need guns. But we do. It's not going to change any time soon. And thugs that know you likely won't have a gun (as in the UK) can be more bold.

What's odd is that in the UK it's ok to own a gun (which we know kills) but not ok to own a handgun (which we know offers protection).

The liberal cry in the US is, "but what if the criminal gets to your gun before you do?"

um, they already have a gun. Or a knife. Or a bat. Maybe I should post a sign on my door that say, "Easy target - I've no weapons"

Übergeek 바둑이: We've had protests here over different issues, including people getting killed by police for menacing, but nothing like the reaction in the UK. I suspect that something other than one mans death (whether justified or not) is at work.. some kind of tension has obviously been brewing for some time. btw are you sure about that 30% gun ownership in the US? I didn't see Artful dispute that, so I suppose it could be true. I was always more afraid of my wifes impressive stash of kitchen knives than I ever was over some armed bandits breaking in.. maybe they knew about her knives. I don't know.

I thought I was a liberal at one time, but now I don't think I ever really was. Went through the motions for a few years, but I asked too many questions.. like, what exactly is in that kool aid.. man?

I heard this a few weeks ago on the radio.. "A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged." It's easy to criticise someone who defends himself until you find yourself in that position. But what does it say about you if you aren't even willing to protect family members who depend on you?Judging from what I hear in the news, sometimes I think the only ones who really know what's going on are the criminals.

Übergeek 바둑이: Yeah you're right. forget the guns. Burning down entire stores and damaging other property and beating the crap out of innocent bystanders is so much better. Heck, one guy in the UK ran over three pepole in his car killing all three of them! That's just ONE car and ONE hit. No gun can do that.

I'll bet those three dead guy would have like to have had a gun to protect themselves.

I have seen estimates that say that about 30% of Americans own a firearm. If rioters in the UK had that kind of access to guns, what would the riots be like? If 30% of the rioters had guns, how many policemen would be dead now? Americans are lucky that so far rioting has been limited, but if the economy goes belly up, it is likely we will see rioting, and 30% of those rioters could have guns. What will the military do? Kill its own people?

Of course, nobody talks about how much money gun manufacturers make. We could make it a criminal offense to manufacture and sell guns except to the police and the military. If I manufactuer bombs and sell them to the public, I will go to jail. However, gun manufacturers get away with making and selling lethal weapons.