The Usurper: Aye, the tools of our leaders. Throughout history it's all been the same.

(V): Says it all. I knew you would understand it....would be nice if some others could broaden their awareness. :o)

The Usurper: It's just a matter of studying history and remembering it. Kings, politicians, religious leaders, revolutionaries... they've all used it.

eg The Dark Ages.

(V): "....would be nice if some others could broaden their awareness."

That's not meant as a slight. I mean it really would be a wonderful thing.

The Usurper: That would mean some groking, and that unfortunately leads to certain 'side effects' as stated in ecclesiates (sp)

(V): To grok or not to grok is certainly the question, and contrary to the apparent opinions of some, no 11th commandment can be found in Exodus or Deuteronomy, stating, "Thou shalt not grok."

As you've intimated, grokking comes with a price.

The Usurper: Wisdom... the first thing created by God.. as per proverbs.

22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [b] , [c]
before his deeds of old. 23 I was appointed [d] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;

25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, 31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.

32 "Now then, my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. 34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway.

35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.

36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death."

(V):who wrote that?

Bwild: It's in the Old testament, Proverbs 8.... which happens to be mainly about wisdom, as is the rest of proverbs.

(V):who wrote it?

Bwild: They say King Solomon and others who he collected writings of.

(V): Maybe I am mistaken...I was under the impression Bwild is asking about the Nazi quote in the subject line?

The Usurper: Oh well, anyways.. he learns two bits of info

With intelligence one can grasp data, but the interpretation of such..... Computers can understand data, but they can't think and thinking has many parts to it.

(V): "he learns two bits of info"

Yes, two bits of data, which hopefully he will utilize the many parts of thinking to properly interpret. :o)

(V):"they" say......this is exactly my point.

Bwild: They say because of things in the text and of records dating back to the era that it was written. King Solomon was well known for his wisdom and Israel reached it's pinnacle under his rule.

1 Kings 4:34 (NIV)
34 Men of all nations came to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, sent by all the kings of the world, who had heard of his wisdom.

Proverbs is said to be "the greatest "how-to" book ever written".

(V):lets cut a baby in half in todays society and see how that flys in our judicial systems.

Bwild: And in the end the mother gave up the baby rather then see it harmed. A good way to see who the mother is as she would never allow harm to come to her child.

King Solomon said, "Bring me a sword!" So they brought a sword before the King. The King said, "Cut the living child in two, and give half to one and half to the other"

The woman (#2) turned to the King, because her compassion was aroused for her son, and said: "Please my Lord, give her the living child and do not kill it!"

But the other woman (#1) said: "Neither mine nor yours shall he be. Cut!"

The King spoke up and said: "Give her (#2) the living child, and do not kill it, for she is his mother!" All of Israel heard the judgment that the King had judged. They had great awe for the King, for they saw that the wisdom of God was within him to do justice. [I Melachim 3:16 - 27]. The woman was rightfully awarded custody of her son.

Bwild: --"they" say......this is exactly my point.--

That is a great point. Simple and neat, and it excuses you from thinking.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time and those are the ones you want to concentrate on."--George W. Bush

(V): Proverbs 8 has always been one of my favorite passages of scripture, not only for its content but for its beautiful expression. Wisdom, that is the principle thing...therefore get wisdom! :o)

The Usurper: Yep,,, Intelligence is nothing without it.

(V): With intelligence only, one can in some sense know. But wisdom must be added, if one is to grok. :o)

(V): It's funny, for years I used to go around saying, "I grok that," or "I am grokking the fullness," and of course no one had a clue what I was talking about. lol