Czuch Chuckers: dOoMed..

Well, I'm sorry I am the cause of all this. I really didn't mean to bring up these things. I still think If EdTrice is giving out the prize, it is his own choice and matter whom to giv eit to. And since he has been aware of the fact that Sumerian is playing with his engine, it is OK if Sumerian wins the tourny. Yes. If I was giving the prize, it would be far too different. Right now, I have no right to complain how others are going to spend their money. My appologies to you Sumerian for all the trouble I have cause you. It's the first time my word brings others problems and I'm really sorry for that.

Czuch Chuckers: EdTrice isn't playing in that tourny and we all know EdTrice and Sumerian ar enot the same person. So the worst is that Ed Trice wants to willingly giv ehis money to Sumerian!

reza: Why is it okay for anyone to break the user agreement at any time for any reason?

bOtTOm LiNe..
tRiCe WiNz, tHUs No pRiZe.

Czuch Chuckers: If you answer this question of mine, I'll answer yours:

what is the user agreement for?

reza: Whoops! Sorry Ed! Maybe it is worth 500 bucks for him to find out who has the 2nd best cheating machine on this site?

sLaMdAnCe: we are referring to this tournament:

http://brainking.com/game/Tournaments?tri=25674#5

And it says:


Gothic Chess $500 1st Prize, Free to enter (Gothic Chess - show rules) Creator: EdTrice
As we close the books on another profitable year, we will once again have a free tournament, this time with more prize money. $500 1st prize, $300 2nd prize, and $50 for each "section winner" that is a Knight or Rook before the tournament begins. Players who take 1st or 2nd prize also get the $50 they win in the section. Section prizes will be paid out once the finalists are determined. If any draws are agreed to before 25 moves are played in any game that results in a prize being awarded, the TD reserves the right to award that prize to someone else. I will not be playing in this event.
Back to the list of game types

Please don't accuse Ed of using a programme, he's not here to defend himself. (And I'm sure he's stated before he doesn't)

reza: that description doesnt tell the other players that a programme user is playing against them

reza: Im not sure if that is a trick question? The user agreement is a contract between the site and the user of the site that the user agrees to certain terms and conditions or forfiets their right to use of that site.

Czuch Chuckers: That is what a user agreement is. I asked what it is FOR. Why is auser agreement used?

reza:so if i win my Section i not get the 50$? dammmmmm i new was a trick.

reza: It is used to define terms and condition of use for that site. Although a site owner can keep anyone from using their site for any reason or no reason at all, this gives some guidelines to help be consistant in restricting the use to certain users.

ustica: LOl! be sure you'll get your prize if you win the session you're playing in. That's what EdTrice says. If he's a man of his word, then you'll get that $50 if you win the session you're playing in.

Bank's Ladder for checkers was open for all players but put in the warning: anyone may enter but the competition is is extremely difficult as the programs and their programmers play at a high level. (then you would see the entrants names like Joe Blow..Cake Program etc.) I know of 3 people who play on the internet that cracked the top 20 without a program. A remarkable feat! But of course BK is not Banks Ladder. As a side note they closed down with the note that they had been threatened with a lawsuit by Ed Trice. I don't pretend to know the details but I did get a kick out of it.

harley: I am sure Ed has said he doesnt use programs here because of fear he will not be allowed on this site, as it is against the user agreement to do so. But it seems that the common concesious is that on any turn based site, there are people who are going to use programs and since you never know who is and isnt, it is safer just to use them yourself, and if there are people using programs I am sure that Ed would not have an unblemished record playing against a program without any help himself.

Czuch Chuckers: OK. So it isn't for the benefit of the users but for the benefit of the owner?

In either case, the fact that a player is using a program and IS LETTING others know doesn't hurt either the users or the owner of this site. If players don't want to play him, they don't and if they do, they will play him. so actually Sumerian will not be able to get even a rating if others don't play with him. And in this special case of the tourny, I think he again hasn't done anything wrong. The creator of the tourny has asked him to join knowing the fact that he is using a program and it makes everything clear. The prize giver is free to choose the one he wants to give the prize too. In the tourny no one gets bothered or hurt. They are just games.

Harley, you also said something the other day about the dice not being rigged at all on this site or possible either. I know on a gambling site for real money hackers had figured out how to see the hands of all the other players. If thety canj do that on a secure site where real money changes hands, then dont know how you can be so posative that nobody could hack this site to rig the dice?

Czuch Chuckers: perhaps it's not related and off topic, but I too think that dice in backgammon ar enot roled fairly. I mean when my opponent needs only 2,2 he roles that. when the only role that I need to lose is 6.1 I role that. When the only role my opponent needs to have to capture one of my pieces and get ahead for 50 or 60 points is 5.4, he roles that!

how is it possible?

Fencer & Liquid would know if someone had hacked into the site. Besides, I think everyone gets dice like those described, three double sixes in a row etc..

reza: Well, like Stevie said, we may as well just trash the whole user agreement, as what kind of site would it be if some of the rules are enforced and others are not? The only people who are likely to play against a cheater are other cheaters. I think it would probably be good in this case to amend the user agreement to allow programs since they are obviously being used anyway, and the only people who are going to be hurt right now are those that admit to it, and it seems like you and others think it is the person who admits it swho should stay anyway!

That kind of thing happens all the time in backgammon. You're using selective memory.
Czuch: why on Earth would anyone take the trouble to hack a site to fix dice in backgammon???!!!!???

Czuch Chuckers: Exactly our point. If this can be included in the user agreement that all using a program MUST admit it, then you can fearlessly brows the profiles for those who haven't admitted anything. It's better than alway shaving this in mind that the user against you is using a program. What do others think?

ughaibu:

Czuch Chuckers: You may have a point there, Czuch. Would it solve any problems if programmes are allowed, but only when stated before a game (or tourney) starts that they are being used? Or would it be better to have a flat, no programmes allowed?

I must have been typing as you posted, reza!

What's the difference? If people are dishonestly using programs now how will changing the UA persuade them to be honest? The point of dishonesty is to get an unfair advantage.

ughaibu: I hope they wouldnt waste their time, I was just pointing out tha it is possible thats all :)

Right thats the crux of the problem. Even if you make it ok to use a program as long as you tell people, what is to keep someone from using them without telling???? The only solution is to allow them and assume they are being used in every game, and plaY OTB ELSWHERE IF YOU WANT A GAME that doesnt use programs.

Fencer has said that it is not possible, as he designed the site I trust that statement.

hy do always get doubles in anti backgammon and hardly ever in regular gammon?

Selective memory.

ughaibu: LOL, nothing is impossible Ug!

I'd say almost everything is impossible.

you would be wrong ;)

Well, there are some purists who want me leave this site. The world seems to be ok for those if all would tell them those things they want to hear, and don't tell them those they don't want.

But by that you do not create a reality but establisch an agreement to further believe in an illusion. Reality will vanish if you make it a problem to tell the truth. The sun will not take an orbit round the earth if you insist that earth should be the unmoved center of the universe.

P.S.: Think it over: the problem has not been that I am using a SELF written engine sometimes, but that I have documented this at my profile frankly. Those which are using programs written by OTHERS secretly instead do not cause a problem.

The "problem" is that your profile isn't compulsory reading. I suggest something like a news page on which statements such as that on your profile can be posted as public declarations.

Sumerian clearly states he is using a computer! He is sincere enough to do it. He could use one without saying nothing. But he didn't do that. And instead of giving him some credit for it we criticize him for admitting it.....? Not very logical...............It would be better if he hasn't accepted it?

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Redsales:
But I just wanted you to know that was one reason I was not interested in entering the tournament, because I did not come here to play machines. Good luck, I will be interested to see if you win.

Relax. Smirf is not so invincible right now, so you should not feel so scared about playing against it. It's beatable, believe me. Of course this is not the point you will clearly say! The point is you just want to play against humans and not machines. But the question is why.........? Why not playing against a beta engine and helping his creator to improve it? Why not enjoying the game the same......? I don't see any reason for this.
And Sumerian clearly states that he is using Smirf! It's not a secret...... He could use it without refering that he does but NO. He was very sincere and he faces that reaction from us.........?!?!?

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Sumeriam:
It seems to play more like a human being, and my opponents hardly were able to distinguish whether I or Smirf have been playing.

In our 3 games we played i could clearly distinguish that i played with a computer engine.

In our first game with Smirf as white, Smirf played rather good the opening (except 7.Bg2) so i can guess that either i'm facing a program or a good human. But after the 18.Rh1? i would easy remove the good human so i would be sure that i was playing Smirf. And after my Nxc4! i would be sure, as the opponent hasn't lost his way in the tactic area and not only this but played the best moves. One strange thing though, was that although the position was lost you can't expect from a computer to play Rxg3 giving me a mate............

In our second game with Smirf as black, it would indeed be very difficult to decide if i was facing a computer. The 12...Bg7! was a nice tactical move that only gives an indication. But the bad 17...Bxi3? showing it doesn't understand the position and that it is actually lost after this (in fact this is very difficult for a computer to see that it's losing as my attack is far away from its horizon), gives an even better indication of a computer. And since before being mated, played the best possible defence (38...Re8, 39...Nd6) i could assume that i play against a computer..........

And in our third game here, after my anti-comp 9.Ah2(since i knew that i'm playing a computer) the 9...Bxj2? shows that my opponent is either a materialistic computer or a not so good human........ But after 9...Bxj2? my opponent played the best moves to avoid the inevitable. So the option of a not so strong human is not true. In fact it played the best moves possible presing my King too much, but the position was lost anyway as i had a material advantage after 9...Bxj2? and my defence proved too strong. So i was playing against a computer.

So with just 3 games i would 100% be sure, that i was playing with a computer. If from the last time we played Smirf has changed so much then the above will not happen again......

But what is the amazing thing, is that a 48 KiB program is able to play all these kind of different variants (among them Chess and Gothic Chess) and it's able to make people frightened about its playing strength. I would like to express my huge admiration for your accomplishment: SMIRF! I'm thrilled by the fact that such a small code can do so much............

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Reza I am here mostly to just have fun.

Don't you think that the above and the discussion about Smirf you started are
contradictory........?

Pitty Mr. Trice isn't here to tell us why he has agreed to let Sumerian play in the tourny. In fact since he is the one who wants to spend the $500, it's OK if he wants to give it to Sumerian

Sumerian is not the winner. He is a participant and he may win or he may not win. And why Ed Trice should not have accepted Sumerian.......? Because he is using a computer? So what....? Since you can't clearly prove that others don't use one, you can't say anything against Sumerian.............And in fact he refers that he is using one in his profile so it's not a secret at all! And again what you prefer? Player-X that he admits he uses a program or player-X that he uses a computer but he don't admits it..........? And the most important thing is that he doen't use smirf in order to have an astonishing BKR or no loses etc... but to experiment with it..............

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Czuch Chuckers
I think Ed Trice only put up that prize because he knows his cheating machine is better than anyone elses. He doesnt plan on paying that prize to anyone but himself.

Just to let you know(you know it right now), Ed Trice isn't participating in this tournament.........So before posting anything without knowing for sure, just put the word "i think" or just ask.........! (Don't feel offended by my notes.....)

is an important point and should not be " off topic" everywhere!

Immortality is important too, but we can't achieve it. So we should not care ot think about it..........

Same here: as nobody can't prove or prevent cheating, it's not important.........

Cheaters only fool themselves...how can anyone think its fun to win and know he has cheated?..The defense "He has created the programme himself" is not so smart imo(apologizes to you who said it) A "robot" is a robot doesnt matter if Bill Gates/Ed Trice or whoever created it. If this "robot" is allowed then i think Fencer has a problem..then any kind of cheating must be allowed..right?

Andersp: everybody has the right to give his experiences an appropriate form. But there is a huge difference in using a self written engine or relying on the intellectual properties of others.

Sumerian: Of course you should test your "product" but to test it in a prizetourney..hmmmm?...well enjoy the money :)

Andersp: Smirf will have big difficulties to be victorious there, on what I am in doubt. Moreover it has not been me who initially asked to participate. Instead the tournament creator repeatedly encouraged me to participate, explicitly allowing the use of Smirf. It seems to be of a special interest for him to watch it play there, which I of course can understand. I think it is the genuine right of a tournament's creator to decide who should be accepted as a participant in such an event.

Sumerian: If im not wrong you (Smirf) have already won $25. Im no chessplayer so i dont suffer
but if an engine is allowed in one tourney i guess Fencer has to allow them in other games too...is that fun?

Andersp: well it is not at all fun, that those who frankly give information on using self written engines will be accused here, whereas a remote using of foreign programs is no theme at all. The problem seems to be that the truth is destructing some illusions, but I cannot change reality by denying it.

Sumerian: But you must see my point?..If Fencer approves your engine he has to say 'OK" to mine too...if was smart enough to create one :)

Game Guidelines:

1. NO CHEATING. This includes using outside programs to help play and losing on purpose for the goal of boosting ratings. Your account may be banned, and ratings will be removed.

to Andersp: If you have written your own engine, proof that fact, and make its usage transparent - where should be the problem, when only playing when being invited (where the opponent has seen your profile page) or after asking him, whether he would like to play against an engine.
to BrainKing04: Smirf is not an outside program. It is my own intellectual property. And if you are convinced that I should be banned from here, you have to initiate the appropriate steps.