Artful Dodger: It's nevertheless the truth, at least according to Jesus' way of reckoning. And if I, personally, never gave a penny to anyone, it certainly wouldn't nullify the arguments I am making.

Nite Dan. As always, been fun....

The Usurper:Good then you won't mind telling us the answers to the questions I asked.  How much money do you give away a year.  What's the percentage.  How many children do you support and from which organizations.  And what is the average giving of republicans?

I'll expect answers to these questions. 

Artful Dodger: That is like asking me how many women I slept with in 2008 or, more to the point, to do my alms before men. And it is, naturally, designed as a personal attack in lieu of a defensible argument. In any case, it is private and I'll keep it to myself. I have no trophies big enough for your display case. Let God be the judge. And I'll stick to my position.

I brought religion into this discussion because, when considering the case of the poor, the Bible has a lot to say about it. Also, most Republicans are Bible-thumping Christians, are they not? So it applies. And one would think the Bible's teachings & sentiments on this subject would influence their attitudes, political as well as private. It would appear, however, that other Biblical themes (particularly the Mosaic ones) get most of their attention.

I don't even claim to be a Christian. I ought not to know more about the Bible than most of these fundamentalist-types. And I didn't write the Bible, so I can't take the blame for what it says. If Jesus and his disciples were bleeding hearts, or too lazy and irresponsible to work, as O'Reilly would have it, or not worthy of compassion, as Limbaugh suggests, or perhaps ought to be kicked around a bit, as Beck thinks....or if the poor, rather than being blessed or held in esteem, are the scum of the Earth which deserved to be washed away by Katrina because they didn't have enough sense to leave the city...well, I can't help it if the Bible you purport to believe in & abide by rather condemns your point of view.

But when did the "man of sorrows" ever catch a break?

The Usurper: There is something to be said for Gandhi when you put it like that lmbo!

Mousetrap: I agree! There is a man who exemplified Christ. :o)

Mousetrap: Also thank you for your post. It is the only one in the last 7+ hours not from the opposition. lol

The Usurper: I am not a bible thumper....

my point to you again, is not that some may need the care from others, but where do you see in our constitution that it is the responsibility of the federal government to give this kind of care?

It comes down to democrats/socialists, who believe the federal government should be more and more responsible for the people, and take more and more of our money to do it or conservatives/libertarians, who believe that the federal government should have a very limited role in our lives.

There are many ways in which a society can and should take care of its poor and others that need caring for... but where is it written that society = federal government?

Also, like AD was trying to point out, it is more likely that the so called bible thumpers give far more to charitable concerns than you and your socialist friends ever thought about giving?

Just re reading some of your comments... it is clear that you have a complete misunderstanding of our (conservative if you will) views.... is it not possible for us to have compassion yet still believe that it is not the federal governments responsibility????

Its really that simple, we want to take care of the poor, we just dont want our federal government to be the solution!

Czuch: If all the bible thumpers & goverments of there own countrys.Would help there own.Then that would be a start to get this whole world working together.In stead of blowing all that money on BS

People are dying all over the world & what for NOTHING other than GREED

The Usurper: So I see lmbo!
I dont know anything about American politics. Its very interesting reading this board though lol.
I think goveraments are the same all over the world. Only some are more corrupt than others. It does,nt matter who gets in most look out for number one.

2004: Buffalo, NY Muslim activist Muzzammil Hassan founds TV
station to combat negative stereotyping of Muslims.

2009: Buffalo, NY
Muslim activist Muzzammil Hassan beheads wife

What a difference 5 years makes.  Seems that since his wife had filed for divorce, Muzzammil had to perform an honor killing so he chopped her head off.  Nice touch Muzzammil.  That's sure to get those of us in the West to see Muslums in a different light. 

Get this:

"Friends expressed shock on Friday that the founder of a Muslim TV channel — which he launched in order to counter violent images of Muslims"
http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/579324.html

From the article:

"I cannot believe it — I know them both well," he said Friday. "I cannot get a handle on this."

It would be a mistake to link an act of domestic violence to the couple's religion, he added.

"There is no place for domestic violence in our religion — none," Qazi said. "Islam would 100 percent condemn it."

Yeah, let's not blame the religion.  Just because honor killings is common practice, let's not jump to conclusions.  Islam wouldn't condemn this act since it's Islam that promotes it.  In Islam, if you are a woman and you are raped, you just may find yourself beheaded.  That's right, the family's honor is at stake here.  You had sex outside of marriage and that calls for your head.

Here's a picture of the couple.  She had an instrumental role in the creation of BridgesTV. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxnlvyCge4k

Artful Dodger: Now that is a classic case of one law for them and one law for us or "do as I say and not as I do"
I bet this goes on a lot more than we ever hear about.

Mousetrap: In Islam, beating one's wife is not only permitted, but encouraged for the sake of strengthening the family and maintaining here honor and modesty.  We in the West oppress women.  An interesting way of looking at things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fb6D9G4gpW8&feature=channel

Artful Dodger: Lol yes very interesting! It is hard to believe too that some Muslim women allow themselves to be treated like that and actually believe it is right but I am sure it is true. The only way to stop it would be if enough women started saying no but they would have to be quick before they got beheaded or whatever.

Mousetrap:Even in the US there have been many honor killings.  The women don't allow it.  But they don't have a lot of choice.  In the Eastern cultures, it's an oppressive situation and they either submit, or die.  There is no fighting back.  In the US, you have to be willing to break totally with your family and basically go into hiding.  CNN has done several stories on this issue and it's a serious problem that's not likely to go away anytime soon.

Artful Dodger: Yes it is the same here. Our goverment still decided to allow some parts of Sharia law to be practised though. It must be fear of having a Muslim uprising if they didnt.
I hope Sharia law never extends into our courts from Muslim parliament.

Artful Dodger: I think you're confusing two terms. Islam and Sharia. I believe most Muslims would condemn and do condemn such honor killings, and most Islamic countries have stopped pursuing the Sharia Law. Unfortunately, there are still lots of "conservative" and "traditionally" thinking people who think of those harsh punishments as the only way.

But having said that it is not so long ago that the English court would cut off a child hand for stealing a loaf of bread. We seem to be going backwards not forward.

Mousetrap: That is certainly not true.

Mousetrap: Why do women born in Canada & USA put up with beatings & say nothing?

"GERRY": For the same reason women born in Peru and Australia do so.

Pedro Martínez: It is not so long ago since it was on tv and in the news about a woman who has ran away from her family to escape an honor killing here. It certainly does go on but is not the norm.

Mousetrap: The most important part of the article:

"The judgments of the courts have no basis in British law, and are therefore technically illegitimate - they are binding only in that those involved agree to comply."

And I add: and will never have and will always be.

"GERRY": Fear or just plain madness. The madness being that they think it is love.

Pedro Martínez: I hope not.

"GERRY": untill YOU have lived that...don't judge a woman for the choice she makes

anastasia: I did not get the impression that Gerry was judging.

Mousetrap....god help anybody that gets a beating thinking it is love....

Some women don't have the where-with-all or the brains to get out. They take repeated beatings because of "the kids"...what rubbish, don't they realise they are doing the kids harm by staying.

anastasia says....don't judge a woman for the choice she makes.....
I don't judge them I just won't give any sympathy when they choose to stay and get beaten.......you make your bed, you lie in it........

Bernice:There's a psychology behind it and for many women, it's like being caught in a trap.  It seems easy to outsiders that escape is a logical choice.  But it's like having one's legs in a cement bucket.  You can't move.  For many women, there's no place to go but perhaps the biggest deterrent is the fear factor.  Look at how many abusive men go after their ex's and do them harm even to the point of death.  It's easier to live with the abuse than it is the fear of what may happen if you leave.  I think that the abuser breaks their spirit and they have nothing left to help them flee the abusive relationship.   They are frozen like a deer in headlights.

Artful Dodger: Yes I partially agree with you....it is the woman who stay for years putting up with the abuse. There is always something/someone to help. The salvation army for starters, and they DO NOT require you to join the church before they will help like a lot of the others do.

Anyway.....Happy Valentines day to those that are happy and/or in love....beaten or otherwise........

Im off out for a special treat

Bernice: when you have someone..CONSTANTLY telling you that you are worthless,that nobody will EVER love you,that you will be nothing without him,that if you leave,he WILL find you and he WILL kill you...a person hears that for so long,they WILL start to believe it...top that with being hit for no other reason but that HE had a bad day,the constant put downs and belittling...my mum told me once that it took her 18 years to build up my self esteem and took him less then one year to completely destroy it.
It is VERY easy for you to sit there and say,oh,just leave,oh there are places to go....you know what happened to me Bernice one night when I did try to leave?? do you KNOW!? well,he caught me outside of our apartment,grabbed my head and slammed it repeatedly into a friggin wall untill I almost passed out...thats what happed the first time I tried to leave Bernice...he told me if I did it again,he would kill me...wanna know sometime..I believed he would do it to.
You can sit there and you can judge all you want to but untill you KNOW,untill you have been through it,do NOT judge that woman

anastasia: I CAN JUDGE AND WILL....................why???
because I have been there, same as you and your mother....she didnt leave and you were brought up in that sort of violent situation and you accept it as norm.....let me tell you ....when I had my head stomped, arms slashed with knives, punched in face until black and blue, only to wake up the next morning to hear..."I'm sorry".....yeah well mate so am I.....I'm outta here.....
I heard the "You leave and I will find you and I will kill you and the 2 kids".....great, then do it.

Know what?????................they are gutless when they are in front of other people......on their own they are the strongest, because they can beat a woman half to death. GUTLESS.

Now don't you tell me not to judge, I have been there and done that.....IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN ....to me.

I got the horrible disease out of my system, and so can everybody else. If a person hasnt got the intestinal fortitude to stand up and be counted, then accept your lot, and stop complaining about it.

and here are my pom pom's

anastasia: I did my dear.I seen my mother beat.Do you call that judging. That's a FACT.

Bernice: my mother was never beaten by my father,he never ever raised a hand to her..where you got that impression,I have no clue..
You sit there...they made their bed,so lie in it...you have been there,you KNOW it isn't that easy..I also made the choice...if ya wanna kill me,kill me,GOTTA be better then THIS,for sure...HOW you can sit there tho after LIVING through it and KNOWING how they kill ANY self esteem you had...once apon a time and judge that it is the womans fault for staying is just beyond me

if they stay...its their choice...get over it.
many men are abused dailey by woman...maybe not physically..but verbally and mentally....same difference in my opinion.   what does this have to do with politics??

Bwild:  I think I kinda brought it up with my posts on honor killings.  The forum is for politics and issues.  Everything seems to filter through politics eventually.  In my post below, the wife of a prominent business man was beheaded when she filed for divorce.  He is a Muslim and his mission in life was counter violent image of Muslims.  I'd say chopping off his wife's head didn't really help eliminate that negative image. 

Artful Dodger:some cultures are not as evolved as others.....
on another note...same subject.....wasnt there an issue in Australia over the muslims?

Bwild:I"m not sure about the Australia thing.  Bernice might know tho.

anastasia: my mum told me once that it took her 18 years to build up my self *** --sorry I read that wrong....I thought you were referring to your mother.......

My self esteem was never *killed* as you put it because I left the next morning.

**Once upon a time**...Im lost on this one - sorry.

I never said it was the womans fault for staying, i said you have to have strength (Intestinal fortitude)to leave. You know what is wrong and how to fix it therefore - fix it.

Im sorry you had to keep going through it *shrugs* did you leave? or are you still in an abusive relationship.

You havn't had your head cut off, but then that could be better than being there, forever


***edited for spelling mistakes***
when will we get a spell-check.?

Bwild: yes there was an issue with the muslims....they were complaining a few years ago because they werent allowed to wear their headdress in public schools (the reason being they couldnt be checked for explosives etc) so they built their own schools and then refused entry to non muslims - even tho it was built with public money,,,is this what you are thinking about?

I will do a check and see if I can find anything else.

Bernice:

I don't judge them I just won't give any sympathy when they choose to stay and get beaten.......you make your bed, you lie in it.......

Bernice, you are starting to sound like a good American Conservative...

Artful Dodger:

There's a psychology behind it and for many women, it's like being caught in a trap. It seems easy to outsiders that escape is a logical choice. But it's like having one's legs in a cement bucket. You can't move



AD, you are sounding much like one of those liberals too

http://sheikyermami.com/2008/11/27/wife-beating-in-islam/


***we have plenty of help for abused spouses***

About 1 mile from my home an old motel was turned into studio apartments just before Xmas....this was for abused wives, is security patrolled and husbands can't go near it.


Bwild I agree with you as well, that just as many husbands as wives suffer at the hands of their spouses.

Czuch: 

Czuch: ....well Im pleased if you are pleased.

People have to get up, get out and HELP THEMSELVES.

Bernice: If they dont want to help themselves there is not a lot anyone else can do about it.

Which reminds me of that saying.
"God helps those who help themselves but God help those who get caught helping themselves"

Mousetrap: I agree with both those statements ROFLMBO