Fencer, I understand your decision and I respect it. I hope that solution will placate as many people as possible. I will still try to urge players to learn to play the gamne the correct way, but if thye do not wish to, they still have the option of p[laying without the restriction, so they should have nothing to complain about.

I have a few thoughts though that I hope you will take into consideration--

1) I hope this option to turn off the opening restriction STAYS with the 13 X 13 board and does NOT get added to the 19 by 19 board. As it is, the 13 X 13 board is not an official pente board, so I am more able to accept the restriction being lifted as long as it stays on that board.

2) As far as the ratings go-- I think it is a problem for the ratings to have small pente players all rated together if some are using the restriction and some are not. Players who play without the restriction have no business being rated with those who DO use therestriction.

This may be too minor of a problem to deal with, but if I may, I would like to make a few suggestions for you to consider.

suggestion 1) Allow only unrated games if the restriction is turned off. Tihs is actyually how Dweebo used to have his site run at Dweebo's stone games-- players at his site oculd play unrated games and thus turn off the ratings, which keeps the ratings fair to those who DO use the restriction. It really is unfair to those who play with the restriction to be rated with those who do not use it.

Suggestion 2) Actually create a separate variant with a separate name-- then there will be one game called "small pente" that HAS the restriction, and a new variant could be created called "No restriction Pente" which does NOT have the restriction. This owuld give players clear choices about hwich game to play, and everyone would be rated fairly and on equal footing.

In response to Dmitri’s previous post:

I would actually suggest that the option SHOULD be placed on the 19x19 board. Remember, the 13x13 board is ONLY here to accommodate the WebTV users.

As far as ratings go, I agree with Dmitri that it is a problem to use restricted and unrestricted games together in calculating a single ranking. I disagree with his suggestion of only allowing unrated games for the unrestricted variant. That’s not right. Creating a separate game on the site would work. How about calling it Original Pente, since that’s how the rules originally were. :-)

Thad

Thad, your primary concern was being able to PLAY the game without therestiction. Can't you just be satisfied with that? Gary and I really want the betterment of pente to be taken into consideration, and having the game WITHOUT the restriction called "Original pente" MISLEADS people into thinking that it is the PREFERRED or PROPER way to play.

WHat is wrong with calling it like it is, "No Restriction Pente?" It is accurate and effective, and is also not suggestive of which is the correct way to play. Wouldn't that appease everyone?

NOW that you are getting the restriction removed on the small board, why do you need it removed on the large board? I think a fair compromise is to have it only on the small board.

Dmitri,

You are right, being able to play the game here without the restriction is my main concern.

You posted your opinion on whether the restriction should be placed on the 19x19 board and the name of the game. I disagree with your opinion and wanted to post my thoughts on the subject.

I’d like to be able to play unrestricted on the larger board. I don’t like games where the edge comes into play. But I suppose the compromise of having it on only the smaller board is ok. My only other concern is what happens if we no longer need the 13x13 board for WebTV users. I hope you’d let us play unrestricted on the big board then. But we can worry about that another day. ;-)

The name of the game isn’t really important to me, although I like Pente & Original Pente because they reflect the history of the development of the game. I think any further discussion on it would be splitting hairs, but you are welcome to have the last word if you have anything you would like to add.

Thad

Thad -

You're pushing your luck BIG time! Fencer has agreed to make the restriction optional on Small Pente and Small Keryo Pente. I agree that the ratings will now be invalid for that game. After all, I could just play EVERY game as player 1 WITHOUT the restriction and NEVER lose (unless I fell asleep) and eventually get some astronomical rating. To prove the point, I think I was something like 400+ and 0 in tournament no-restriction Pente games at IYT as player 1. Am I proud of that? Not at all. I was playing starting with a forced win every time.

But it is you, Walter, and Pioneer54 that have effectively created this invalid ratings situation by barking so loudly. So I guess I have little sympathy for the situation. After all, it's Fun-Pente, right? If it's Fun-pente, then why would you CARE about ratings?!

My suggestion is for Fencer to do EXACTLY what he stated that he would do. It gives us what WE want and it gives YOU what you want. And it is the least effort for him to placate the MOST people. That suggestion is to make the restriction OPTIONAL on ONLY Small Pente AND Small Keryo Pente EXACTLY like they have it at IYT. Pioneer54 has even made the point that the restriction SHOULD be lifted SPECFICIALLY on a 13x13 board in Keryo Pente because the advantage of player 1 is less than on the 19x19 board. (I don't agree with it, but that is his case and Fencer is offering to remove the restriction on the smaller board.)

I do NOT think Fencer should make any special provisions for the ratings. Just mix ALL the no-restriction and restriction games together all in one bucket! Once again, I will state that it is FUN-pente, so the fact that the ratings won't mean much should not bother MOST FUN-pente players. And most serious players won't even choose to bother with such a game.

That is the easiest way for Fencer to go. BUT...I am being generous in my response here. My TRUE feeling is that un-restricted games of Small Pente should NOT be rated AT ALL! That is EXACTLY like it was up until a few months ago at Dweebo's Stone Games (DSG). Now as far as I know, the no-restriction game is not even ALLOWED at DSG. Also you will NOT find the no-restriction games, even in non-tournament play, at www.gamerz.net where the world championships are held.

So you see there is actually TWO sites that do NOT have no-restriction Pente. ONLY IYT has it and you should feel VERY fortunate that Fencer has agreed to at least allow the OPTION on the smaller boards here.


Gary

Gary said:
So you see there is actually TWO sites that do NOT have no-restriction Pente. ONLY IYT has it and you should feel VERY fortunate that Fencer has agreed to at least allow the OPTION on the smaller boards here.

My reply:
So what are you implying, Gary, that you are right because more sites have ‘your’ way than ‘mine’? Tell me this, how many websites are there that offer chess? How many offer pente? Does that make chess better?

Besides that, you counted wrong!!

There is another very good site for playing pente. You can play several variants of the game there including Fun-pente, ‘official’ pente, and my personal favorite, pente with unlimited caps. Over 750 players have completed games there. The site masters are friendly and they have been making nice improvements to the site. It’s still a beta site, and there are many more things they can (and plan to) add, but it’s still a good site as is.

I’m sure many of you reading this post know the site I am speaking of. Gary, I am not mentioning the name of the site because I don’t want you to go there and muck it all up with all your talk of how all those of us there, WHO JUST WANT TO PLAY GAMES AND HAVE A GOOD TIME, are detrimentally ruining the long-term viability of blah-buh-de-blah-blah...

To everyone else:
Please do NOT post the name of that site here. I REALLY don’t want them to go thru the torture we’ve all gone thru here.

Thad

Gary,

Why do you say I’m “pushing your luck BIG time!”. Because I made a post about the option on the 19x19 board and/or about the name of the game? That post was specifically in response to what Dmitri said. He posted his thoughts, and I posted mine in reply. Where’s the problem?

And don’t try to blame me, Walter, Pioneer54, or anyone else for the ratings problem. The ratings were fine until you (and whoever else) talked Fencer to change the rules of the game.

Thad