Bernice: . They are trying to change things here. The trouble is people who need the money are having it took off them or cant get it in the process. The system is certainly well up the creek without a paddle

ScarletRose:I'll bite....theres as many women in politics these days as men...
just so you know,(in case you havent gotton any recent news up in your inexpensive rural area) the United States imports the vast majority of its oil and has done so for over 30 years.  Oil prices skyrocketed with the O.P.E.C. conference.  so other than continually trying to make this some sex(he v/s she) conversation, what is your point?

(V): Well, I can't answer that specifically for the populace of the USA.
Personnally, I welcome immigrant labour, whether it is legal or illegal. Why would I want to pay a higher cost for something? The minimum wage is a form of tax and consequently damages both economy and labour market... simple economics!

A few years ago gasoline rose up to $4 per gal here in the states. Now.. we import the oil .. yet, when we have the oil over here why is it we are paying to import in here.. I would rather see jobs available to our country men by processing the oil our country has rather than pay a high dollar for that being brought in. Is it because we have men making the final decision??

SL-Mark: .. are people willing to absorb the costs in the USA of having legal workers working instead of illegal workers.

It was clear, just I had to explain it several times

99 weeks?

gosh that isnt very long...there are those in the UK and other countries that have collected a benefit from their Govts. for years and years. 3 names of employers, and signed byt them are all that is needed for another 2 weeks benefit.

Some are born into poverty and just follow on from their parents/grandparents, because there is no work ethic, and they are a bludge on society.

I wish the UK, Aust etc would do what the USA does, and MAKE it hard for them to live on ""hand-outs""

(V): Straight answer? Depends if there is a straight question? What is that question to which you seek an answer? Certainly not clear from below.

Illegal immigrants are cheap labour. As such these savings in costs are passed down through to the retail end via mark up and profit margins.

To completely eradicate Illegal immigrants from the USA (or reduce by a good %) the work force has to be replaced. As no USA citizen is going to accept the bad pay and work conditions illegals experience then wages must increase.. otherwise it's a no brainer.

Unless... you are happy that illegal immigrants are replaced by basically slave USA labour working for peanuts, and as such unable to feed and look after their families as Americans want everything on the cheap.

rod03801: Maybe someone will give me a straight answer now.

(V): Not even close to what I said. Maybe someone else will dance with you now.

rod03801: I wasn't. I'm stating economic and business facts. This is what businesses rely on to run.

If anything is silly it's you thinking people should work on low wages just so you can get cheap goods, and that businesses will stop employing illegal immigrants when they have legal loopholes letting them.

(V): And as usual, you are giving the image that you argue, simply for the sake of arguing. Round and round and round. I can't be bothered with the silliness. I'm not getting into a mud slinging with you.

ScarletRose: I've seen farmers here go out of business as the supermarkets are unwilling to pay a fair rate for milk. Chicken farmers getting 3p a chicken profit whilst the middlemen and chains get a £1 or more profit.

Yes, it's all nice being young and just starting in the job market... But those who've been caught out by this bank crash.. It's a different matter.

(V):  Most people in the US live way beyond their means.. They have house loans, student loans, auto loans and credit cards they shuffle payment after payment to.. they have to depend on two solid incomes to maintain their budget. When this started their was monies granted to banks.. but, also stimulus monies to help those homeowners.. The people who rent.. such as myself didn't have the luxuries of getting this extra money. I am amazed the prices of real estate. I grew up knowing that people had to work for their life styles I know the younger crowd thinks they get to start at the top.. and they can if their credit cards and score allow them to. Take their job from them and they start losing stuff cause all their monies are tied up in paying loans off.. not saving..

ScarletRose: Here in the UK all you need to do is prove you are hunting actively for a job to get unemployment. And they will ask you to go for jobs you will not get... but at least if you don't get it you will not be penalized. Just the application makes your job search look good for their figures!!

rod03801: Well then.. give me some perspective. As the image you are giving is someone who has no business understanding whatsoever.

"ll of us will have to sacrifice in some way to fix all the damage that has been done, by those who wanted to turn things this way."

It is the USA people's fault... yes. They wanted a cheap life at the expense of others. You are still talking like you still do.

(V): U have no idea what my understanding is. You just don't read everything completely?

And yes, unfortunately there is really no way around it. All of us will have to sacrifice in some way to fix all the damage that has been done, by those who wanted to turn things this way.

I feel fortunate at this time that we live in an area that is affordable. Although, it doesn't offer many professional career jobs it does have the service type jobs and even if having to work for minimum wage I know we are still able to at least pay for housing.. luckily, I was not spoiled with high paychecks as an adult to where I am suffering right now..
Finding that analysts feel that my age group on up will be the ones who don't get chosen right off who may trickle back to sufficient jobs is unsettling to me. Though probably not as much as the one who is used to a larger budget. I do know that being a professional Dan has run into stumbling blocks.. he is repeatedly told he is way over qualified and is usually passed over for that and his age. Those people on the 99 weeks are so being judged to where others think they are just sitting on their butts. They aren't.. I know Dan and I have put out several thousands in the past 3 summers just for interviews.. due to the travel and the costs related.. this is monies we have labored with odd jobs, or working on the family horse ranches, or delivered newspapers to earn.. the time Dan spends alone submitting his resume' and balancing everything else is amazing.. What advantage we have is our cost of living isn't pushing us out of our house..

rod03801: *sigh* In the end if you are unwilling to pay, or the businesses are unwilling to pay for the extra for the extra costs of a legal labour force... Who is?

If the labour cost NOW of a product through use of illegal immigration is 25% and that through a legal labour force goes up to 45%.. are you willing to pay extra at the till.

If you are not, no business unless forced is going to stop using cheap labour. If one does and another does not.... One will go out of business through being undercut.

Otherwise I must say (no insult) your understanding of economic realities is zilch.
The big shops will always want to use the cheaper supplier. In this case the farmer who charges less.

That is basic retail economics.

(V): Um, no it isn't. I say ship back every illegal immigrant.
There are obviously plenty of CITIZENS who need work. If they have to work at minimum wage for a while, because they can't get their preferred job? SO BE IT. I'd certainly do it before sitting on my rear end and taking handouts from the government for 99 weeks.

NO ONE takes care of ME, except ME.

God how many times does it need to be said? People CAN and SHOULD be able to get help occasionally, if they need it. But the kind of help being given out right now is NOT reasonable. Most who go beyond what any thinking/sane/reasonable person would see as reasonable are LAZY and TAKING advantage of those of us who are HARD workers and would do WHATever it takes to take care of ourselves and our families before turning for help.

rod03801: I'm trying to put some real economics on the table.

"Can't really say I have a problem with people working for minimum wage though,"

So.. In the end you don't really care about workers as long as you get cheap consumer products.

That's insulting to the folk you want to supply you with your OJ and basically agreeing to illegal workers being employed in the USA!!

(V): Little insults will kindly be left off this board? No? I suggest they are.

As I said, a little help is one thing. 99 weeks or more is WAY beyond a little help.

And yes, unfortunately there is really no way around it. All of us will have to sacrifice in some way to fix all the damage that has been done, by those who wanted to turn things this way.

Can't really say I have a problem with people working for minimum wage though, for a while, if that's what NEEDS to be done. Perhaps give them a little LESS help then, rather than paying what we are paying now for them to sit around and be "picky" about what they do for work?

rod03801: That's when the likes of the legal age for sex was 13.. Children were treated as cheap labour and the such. A grand old time of kids dying up chimneys!!

rod03801: Are you willing as a consumer ( the first part of my question) TO PAY for the extra costs involved to the likes of the food industry of having a non illegal immigrant workforce.

Let's forget about relocation costs.. The fact that a simple little fed or state help would cut long term employment is hard to comprehend I know for some.

Übergeek 바둑이: So? people learned the language and culture eventually, didn't they?

If you cater to everyone like all the "politically correct" people want to do, there is no reason for them to work to adapt. They can just go on and on like they did where they came from. Plus now they expect to be taken care of too! It wasn't like that 100 years ago!

No thanks.

(V): People need to take care of THEMSELVES.

I don't turn to any government to take care of ME. I work hard and pay my bills.

Someone can certainly need HELP from time to time. And I'm all for that. But 99 weeks of unemployment compensation is WAY beyond reasonable. It's not MY duty to take care of someone like that forever.

I don't care about relocation costs / minimum wage. You DO what you have to DO to take care of yourself and your family.

> "Come here? ADAPT!. Don't like it? LEAVE!"

People always forget what the origins of modern immigration policies in English-speaking countries are.

It used to be that places like Europe, The USA, Canada, Japan, etc. enjoyed a relatively steady population growth because people used to have 4 or 5 children per family. Then as people became more educated, they decided that having 1 or 2 children was enough. As the birth rate dropped, economic growth started to slow down and a young labour force was needed to maintain economic growth and sustain an aging population. In some countries things became such that they actually started experiencing negative population growth, meaning that less people were born than the number of those who died.

Immigration became an economic necessity to provide a steady source of low priced labour. Places like Canada, the USA, Australia and Western Europe accept millions of immigrants each year. Most of those immigrants end up doing work for wages below what the local population would accept. It is the economic reality of those who immigrate out of economic need.

Of course, all those people come with their own culture and language. The local population want the immigrants to learn the language and integrate. If immigrants arrive as young kids, they will learn the language easily and integrate readily into their new country. If immigrants come as adults, the story is different. Having to work, raise a family, and meet daily lives responsibilities is not conducive to easily learning a new language.

The people who scream "Adapt" are usually those who were never immigrants themselves and who do not realize that for an adult to learn a new language is no piece of cake. Neither is it easy for an adult to abandon customs and religion. To put it into perspective: "Would the average western woman be willing to live in the way that women live in some Islamic countries in Asia and Africa?" Of course, western culture is "superior", so it is the others who should adapt.

In reality, there is a "simple" solution to all this. Australians (or whoever) don't have to put up with immigrants. All that they have to do is have women quit their jobs, stay home and raise families with 5 or 6 kids. That is what their grandparents' generation did, and they did not always need to bring all those immigrants who refuse to abandon their religions. believes, customs and languages. I wonder if the same politicians who have the "guts" to yell at immigrants would also have the guts to yell at women for not quitting their jobs and staying home to raise more kids?

http://tucsoncitizen.com/view-from-baja-arizona/2010/07/11/who-is-at-fault-for-illegal-immigration/

Create fair labor standards in this country and maybe we wouldn’t need so many foreign workers.

A key reform that touches on the immigration issue, but reaches way beyond it, is to provide labor rights protection to farm workers and all sort of other work environments where undocumented workers are now exploited.

One of the first things I would do to change the illegal immigration problem is to not only crack down on businesses that hire undocumented workers, I’d also crack down on their wage and employment tactics. No more “labor contractors”. And if the workers wanted to unionize, protect their rights to do so. An obstacle to that approach is Republicans are genereally as anti-union as they are anti-immigrant.

My guess is a lot of immigration raids in certain sectors are actually triggered by the employer dropping the dime on their illegal works because the workers started complaining about 12 hour shifts, unsafe working conditions, and the failure to pay for overtime. With an endless supply of undocumented workers to fill the jobs of the deported troublemakers, the wage slavery continues.

Many of the industries employing undocumented aliens have exemptions from minimum wage laws. Those exemptions must be eliminated. Then maybe a lot more citizens will take these jobs.

The “crew chief” business needs to be busted up. The agricultural sector has fought unionization because they don’t want the higher costs that union contracts would create.

But is it just the higher costs for labor that is the problem, or the pass through of the higher costs to the ultimate consumer…you and I.

Because we want everything as cheap as possible, our demand for cheapness flows backwards through the system to fuel the need for undocumented workers who can be exploited. That flow back occurs not only in agriculture, but in construction, the hospitality industry, and into our yards and homes.

rod03801: Ok... But as a consumer, are you willing to pay the extra as these workers will have to get minimum wage?

.. And whose paying for relocation costs?

Tuesday: I can't stand Bush either, and definitely didn't vote for him. So put that in your hat before you get all high n mighty.

And I don't care who they became unemployed under. (Though, HMMMMM, 99 weeks is about 2 years, no?) They need to get back to work doing SOMETHING. We shouldn't be paying for THAT long.

And again, you're making assumptions. I am NOT a republican.

(V): Yes, perfect for the ones who have been unemployed for 99 weeks who whine about unemployment benefits ending.

If the USA wants to cut down on illegal immigrants.... Why don't more patriotic Americans go work in the fields picking?

Bernice: that the initial colonization of Australia was by 160,000 convicts used to tame Australia (aka cheap labour) .. ok. The cap fits there.

That all non Aborigine folk are Immigrants.. The cap fits.

A little information that the likes of Nick Griffin doesn't mention when moaning about immigration is that about 1,000,000 UK passport holders are now permanently living abroad in Europe.. N' that most Immigrants do in the end integrate with the local society. Unless the local population are like the members of the BNP who have such a limited view based on some strange concept that only people who have roots in the UK dating back to the last ice age should live in the UK.

Australia is short of skilled workers. You need immigrants.

hahahahaha....again ...something you know nothing about......the PM is a Welshwoman - convict...if the cap fits wear it ROFLMBO

The immigrants in Australia are the Europeans.. The actual Australians are the Aborigines.. Guess the PM of Australia forgot that.

Might be the convict gene!!

Bernice: Perfect! This is what I say about our country, and pretty much I think how everyone should feel about their own.

Come here? ADAPT!. Don't like it? LEAVE!

but our PM has the guts to stand up and say what the majority of Australians would like to say....

'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT.. Take It Or Leave It.

I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. '

'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'

'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'

'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'

'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'

'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'

'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'

Übergeek 바둑이: .. Perhaps you should study a bit on human nature. Such is as described by the likes of yin yang and the two yetzer's that such as killing for gold, oil, etc is just an expression of our animal nature. The difference only between us and 'animals' is that we think.. such is that we can wrongly translate basic animal instincts into "logical" actions.

That is not God's fault, that is mankind being in denial of his basic nature and blaming the devil every time they do things like commit adultery or kill through feeling emotionally hurt.

ScarletRose: I've seen a 11 year old kid in the USA showing off his personal gun collection. He had over ten plus a saber and other stuff. That most of what he had would knock the kid off his feet if he tried to fire them seemed irrelevant.

I saw on Fox news the other night moans about regulation in certain states over records being kept over buying high powered rifles, etc.. and that people couldn't buy more than two in 5 days.

... But looking back at talk and notes from those around at the time when the 2nd amendment was made.. Responsibility was part of having a militia and self defense..

.. The cheapness and mass production of arms today was not considered or thought of. We are talking of a time of muskets. Single shot slow loading arms... not semi or automatic weapons with large clips. One platoon with automatic weapons could wipe out an army of musket carrying soldiers.

BIG difference.

Tuesday:

Male - God created it.. WHY?? we will never know.. That sex IS a mistake;  and there is nothing we can do to get rid of it. LOL

(V):

> And no... we are not the only species to wage war against each other. But we are the only species to be able to wage war on a global scale.

Other animals in this planet do it out of instinct.

Male lions will kill the cubs in the pride when they take over the alpha male position from an older male. So the females gang up on the alpha male to protect the cubs.

Male crocodiles will often eat the tiny younglings swimming in the water. So a female crocodile will carry her younglings on her back to protect them.

Many arthropods will eat each other, or their mates after mating. For example, dragonfly larvae often prey on their own species in the water. Female spiders routinely eat the males after mating.

Ants attack other ant colonies. So do bees.

The difference is, we human beings are "intelligent". Animals kill as a way to preserve their species or improve the chances that their own genes will be passed on ot the next generation. But we human. We kill for fun. We kill for oil. We kill for gold. We kill for religion, or race or sexual orientation. We kill for any excuse we can find, and when we can't find an excuse, we just don't care. It was not enough to kill with sticks, so we invented spears and arrows. Then gunpowder, guns, artillery, airplanes, bacteria, viruses, nuclear bombs, etc.

If you believe in the Bible, the Bible says that we we were made in God's image. But the Bible is wrong. I don't think God is insane. I doubt God thought making nuclear bombs was good. Neither did God think that owning weapons is a good think. I refuse to believe in a God who creates beings in his own image, and that image is one of murderers and cutthroats.

If you don't believe in God, then human beings evolved as nature's mistake. A being that will hunt everything that moves must be a mistake in evolution. At some point we have killed everything that walks, crawls, slithers, swims or flies on the face of the Earth. Humanity is proof that evolution failed. The human brain, for all its potential and creativity, is in essence a defective organ. Recent research shows tht there is a gene associated with violence and psychopathy.

Either God created that gene, or it evolved. Either way, that gene is a mistake, and there is nothing we can do to get rid of it.

In France, it's rather difficult to get a gun, but the murderers often use a knife, so.... I agree with Übergeek : the real problem lies in human nature itself.