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16. November 2007, 03:09:18
Herlock Sholmes 
it makes perfect sense, it only from the surface looks like idiotic situation ... tell me, please, would you rather play 6 hours with a very good players, knowing that you are going to lose, or play 2 minutes and give up ? this is just funny illustration .... but seriously, good player is going to win with you anyway so do not sit to the game
using a doubling cube with this sort of players.
If this is going to be within a tournament, well, you have no choice, you have to accept and fight, and miracles happen, this is your only hope ... when you accept you lose 2 points, if not, you lose 1 point ... you will only shorten your pain by refusing ... another question ? what do you expect
from the player, who doubles the stakes after the first move ? If you know this player personaly, he will not do this, for what ? If you play on-line, you just accept and play . I was playing backgammon many times with doubling cube used right away ... but I wasn't the one who offered it . For me, this abusive use of doubling cube, can happen anywhere with any sort of game ... this is a matter of ethics rather than sportsmanship ...
Regards,
Andy.

16. November 2007, 03:41:38
nabla 
Thema: Re:
Verändert von nabla (16. November 2007, 03:43:51)
dicepro: I like your idea a lot, but I don't think you fully realize what the doubling cube is about. It is NOT just a matter of rising the stakes. This is not a money site, so there are no stakes, just a match to be won. In backgammon, a match won by 21-0 is NEVER worth more than a match won by 21-20.

The point of the doubling cube is to force oneself to assess the positions in regard to the current score, in order to optimize one's chances to win the match. So if you are playing chess against a much stronger opponent, it is indeed a sensible, and certainly not abusive strategy to double at move 1 in all games (it is probably not an optimal strategy either, but I don't want to get too technical) . By making the match shorter, you will need less miracle wins.

Of course, that example shows a somewhat trivial use of the doubling cube, which means the cube is best used where the level difference is not too big. And of course in games with a random element and/or incomplete information.

16. November 2007, 03:57:08
wetware 
Thema: Re:

dicepro: I mentioned the possible use of a doubling cube in dice chess back in August on one of our boards.  Back then I was playing a lot of both backgammon and dice chess.  I found that some of my dice chess endings could be analyzed in terms of probabilities very similar to those we see in backgammon bearoff positions.  Some of my dice chess positions could be viewed as legimitaly being a "double and take", or "double and drop".  Never reached the point of being "too good to double", though, as no (back-)gammon possibilities loom in dice chess.    :-)


I've gotten to the point that I can no longer bear to play backgammon without the use of the cube.  I've been told that it's "not really" part of backgammon, but I'd argue that it's essential to the game, and to what is best about it strategically.


16. November 2007, 04:54:44
wetware 
Thema: Re:

dicepro: I've thought a bit more about your comment about "...playing backgammon many times with doubling cube used right away...", which you described as being abusive.  Maybe I need to know more precisely what you mean by "right away".  If that means "as soon as legally possible", I don't have any strong moral feelings about such players' actions, but I'm absolutely convinced they're committing strategic errors (at most match scores, anyway), by voluntarily giving control of the cube to you without justification by the current game position and match score.  Possession of the cube has been described as a tool or a weapon--it's undeniably a thing of value at most match scores.  Generally speaking, I'd welcome the opportunity to play someone who wanted every game to be played at double the initial stakes, but with me having initial possession of the cube!  In such a case, I'd have to say "Please, let's sit and play--and don't forget to bring your wallet!!"


But if "right away" instead means "very early in the game"...well, I'm not sure what's abusive about that, either.  It might feel like one is being pressured earlier than expected, and such decision-making can be quite uncomfortable psychologically, at a variety of match scores.  Here, too, the opponent is offering more than a doubling of the stake--they are offering you sole possession of the cube, and the exclusive right to be the "abuser", one might say.


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