Übergeek 바둑이: That the USA and Russians had a race to get hold of many Nazi boffins as possible is old news really... anyway here it is. Perhaps due to London being bombed by V1 and V2 rockets. Hitler was close to his perfect weapon, a stealthy jet bomber carrying nukes. No allied plane had a hope in hell of intercepting it, not even the German jets were any threat to them.

We had generations of cosmetic research.... and they wondered why animal free products took off like a house on fire.

Both sides knew that if people thought in numbers their lovely war would flop.. Communists became bad guys and so with Capitalists. So they had to have their toys to show how big they are. The Russians won on that with the Tsar bomb. 57 megatons... Is there any real difference after 1 megaton??

Then there are useful offshoots, GPS, Radar, Asdic, body armour, the jet, etc, etc..

This is the real world and as a race.. we ain't ready to drop using war.. but there comes a point you shouldn't cross in the production of making deadly toys. WWII was supposed to have been fought against mad science and mad men who were willing to pervert the human intellect.

As to why.. too greedy and too busy fighting for research money, and too scared I'd feel about certain consequences of rocking the boat.. especially in the McCarthy era.

(V):

We forget certain things about modern science. First, some scientists have cared and that is why things like global warming and damage to the ozone layer were discovered. A number of scientists and engineers were cynical and worked to develop weapons of different types (nuclear, biological, chemical, war planes, rockets, etc.) The vast majority of scientists were too selfish to care and so they did nothing and just let things happens without taking a stance. To me failure to take a stand is as bad as participating in the wrongdoing. Passing the balme to others and failing to do anything just showed many scientists to be cynical and uncaring.

Much of the impetus behind modern warfare came from anticommunism and nazism as solutions to the growing "threat of communism". Nuclear reasearch, rocket design, chemical and biolgical weapons were researched by Nazi scientists after WW II. Most of those scientists were pardoned for war crimes and ended up moving to the US after the war. The justification was that the Communists were a threat to freedom and democracy and Nazi and Fascists were better allies than Communists were. Western governments have failed to own up to this truth mostly out of embarrassment.

Communists themselves willingly participated in the "weapons race" and the "space race". Their excuse being that an aggressive capitalist front was threating the "people's revolution."

In the end we have the usual combination of greedy politicians and businessmen using ideological excuses to pursue a destructive course. Most scientists (along with everyone else) should have taken a stand, but they were either too cynical, too selfish or too ignorant to care. It just goes to show that knowing a lot of science might make you very smart, but it does not make you a better human being.

Übergeek 바둑이: science for science sake... I can't though say that most scientists don't give a damn, considering those who work to find cures and all. But.. I never understood those who developed the likes of biological weapons. What was the point? The nukes virtually would sterilise the Earth of intelligent life... did the boffins and their bosses want to make this a dead world?

I think though it was considered science could fix everything and as you said.. money talked.

Übergeek 바둑이: Let's hope better, by goodness!

gogul:

> To me it is relevant that chemists are not living in the real world.

This is very true, not just of chemists, but many scientists in other disciplines. Modern science is now 200-300 years old. For most of that time scientists were unwilling to accept the consequences of their actions. Scientists locked themselves away in laboratories and research facilities. They developed good and bad things, like medicines and weapons. Science was able to both save and destroy humanity.

Scientists never took a stand on important issues until it was too late. Scientists saw weapons of mass destruction become a reality and they did not say anything about it until bombs were detonated over thousands of people. The environment was destroyed and scientists stood by marvelling at how clever they thought they were. They saw science turn into big business and they turned a blind eye out of ignorance and greed. Now scientists are trapped in world were money is more important than knowledge or the common benefit of all humanity.

I blame universities for this. When I was a university student we had no courses on ethics or economics. We learned chemistry, mathematics, physics and biology. We became clever scientists with no sense of what was right or wrong, and no sense of how people in the real world have to deal with real problems. Things such as pollution were never taught. There was nobody telling us that weapons were wrong, or that certain forms of research should never be done. Issues such as poverty and human exploitation were considered alien to science.

The result was a lot of very clever, self-centered scientists who cared only about research and money. We became clever in science, and useless at everything else. We knew quantum mechanics, but we couldn't fix a leaky tap or plant a potato if our lives depended on it. We had no idea of what getting a real job was, and how hard people have to work to make a living. If other people around the world suffered, we did not care. People like me were considered odd, because we cared about something other than our own skin. Sadly, some of the most intelligent people I have known are also some of the most arrogant and dumb.

Übergeek 바둑이: Right, money decides. Did it come through how ridiculous the failure of the wall streeties is? As for health care. To me it is relevant that chemists are not living in the real world. The academics who are 'at home' somewhere is a rare species and can usually only be found in the humane diciplines. It might be interesting to be some years here, some years there, but you lose the feeling for the problems of the real world, the world our dear grandmas know :)

Czuch: I know somebody else who deserves the idiot.

>The only way the rest of the world gets away with socialism, is because the US does the brunt of their work for them, but once we are all socialists, then who will be left to burden the load????

If the "rest of the world" is the developed world and "socialism" just the strange alien stuff outside the states ()? The US' priviledge is to get in depts in its own courrency, how far away are we from the money coming 'out of the air'? ;) I don't think that our health care structures are that bad, exept that health care is a self-service shop full of thieves. I agree that health care is a responsability. The mainstream medicine is in substantial parts the pure opposite of health care and believe me this will be so obvious soon enough. We can start the story from the bottom and describe all you people who seem to refuse to get sane about those little problems. Funny will be to see the patent system questioned because tons of little entrepreneurs with their chemist friends have other plans than the big pharma clubs.

Pedro Martínez: Everyone has the option of joining a private health scheme here if they want. The difference being is that the firms cover the whole country. So, there is more competition within the firms, and they can offer the same services throughout the UK.

Artful Dodger: *sigh* we've been over 'free' with Czuch. Yes someone pays in one way or another... VAT, Income Tax, etc, etc, etc.

TANSTAFL!!

Doctors.. nurses, etc cannot expect not to earn even if it is a vocation. Equipment.. etc, etc.

And I think the idea is everyone pays. Through VAT, Income Tax, Corporate Tax, Duties, etc, etc, etc..

Everyone pays in some form or another over here... isn't that fair?

Yet.. over here, with regards to private sector contractors, they have to make a bid, they have to show that they will do the job.

Daylight robbery is a crime here. Several big building contractor firms found out that when they rigged construction job prices.

Is this sensible?

This issue is viewed differently in different countries. In Czech Republic, for example, Article 31 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and Basic Freedoms, which is part of the Czech Constitution, says that "Everyone has the right to the protection of their health. Citizens shall have the right, on the basis of public insurance, to free medical care and to medical aids under conditions provided for by law." But I think it should be noted that this is, more or less, only a theoretical issue. In practice, the Czech health care system is not too different from the U.S. one. In spite of stating that the free medical care is a right, and a fundamental right, of every citizen of the Czech Republic, the wording of the provision allows the lawmakers to adopt laws that limit the extent of the free care. Just like in the US, everyone here has the access to health care and nobody is deprived of it, but those with insurance definitely have a better position, obviously.

(V): Access may be a fundamental right to every human being but free care isn't.

Übergeek 바둑이: If that is so.. then the Hippocratic oath means nothing. Centuries upon centuries of medical research by those who strove to save life thrown away for a dollar!!

(V):

> So... who's to decide who lives and dies in your world of "not a right"??

In Capitalism the answer is simple: MONEY DECIDES!

Artful Dodger: So.. ok, I thought you implied that certain people should not have healthcare as a right, I didn't think it was a matter of a certain nationality.

So, who are these people?

Artful Dodger: Barney?? He loves everyone!!

Besides.. he's in hiding after the Barney toy business... there is only so much a sane man can take.

(V): Gee, I looked at all my previous posts on this topic and I can't find any posts where I asked that.  Maybe you could point it out for me.

(V): The purple dinosaur.

Artful Dodger: But you are asking that people in your country don't?

... Thought part of the American revolution was to get rid of the class system??

Artful Dodger: So... who's to decide who lives and dies in your world of "not a right"??

(V):I don't have to live without it.  I earn it.   Myself.  It's called personal responsibility. 

Übergeek 바둑이: Johnson and Johnson.. I've worked for them.. doing the final finishing for them on titanium alloy hip and knee joints.

The stories of certain drugs being too expensive has been a hot subject in the UK. Life saving drugs that could save so many being over priced, economic use in the quantity to make the treatment viable becomes impossible.

... But profit can come in quantity sales at a lower price.. big profit. If ya sell 100 million units at a 50p profit and only 100K units at a £5 profit... well.

Ferris Bueller:  Health care is not a right.   And no one here has said it's a privileged.   I have health care because I work for it.  I put myself through school.  I paid my own way.  I made the decision to go to school, get a degree, and I worked hard to afford it.  Health care is a responsibility.  

Czuch:

> But who bears the cost of making those pills.... the cost of the research and
> the regulatory hurdles and trials and manufacturing??? Thats right, the US does

I am sorry to disagree with this and to call such a statement ignorant national chauvinism.

I am a chemist and I have worked doing research for those pharmaceuticals that you are claiming are the product of American research superiority.

I can give some examples that will put this to rest for good. I worked doing research in drugs for treating osteoporosis. The drugs in question were Fosamax and similar drugs. Fosamax was developed by Merck, an American company based on New Jersey. Fosamax was invented by a group of chemists working in Ontario, Canada. They were all Canadian employees working for Merck, an American company. At the same time, the main chemical reaction used to make Fosamax was discovered and extensively researched by a Soviet Russian chemist called Alexader Arbuzov. The chemical reaction is called the Arbuzov Rearrangement in his honour.

The question is, who deserves credit? The American company? The Canadian chemists who developed the drug? The Russian scientists who first discovered these chemical reactions? Merck has made hundreds of millions selling this drug. The Canadian chemists got their 50K per year salary for doing this. The Soviet chemist got what? Well, he got screwed because as far as I know Merck never paid royalties to him or his family.

If you study chemistry, you will discover that scientists come from all over the world. There are great chemists in Germany, England, France, Russia, Italy, Japan, China, etc. If you open the pages of any chemistry journal, you will find that publications come from all over the world. Not only that, but pharmaceutical companies are everywhere. The US has Merck, Johnson and Johnson, Teva, etc. Germany has Basf. Switzerland has Pfizer. England has Bristol-Myers. The list goes on and on.

Yes, pharmaceutical companies invest a lot of money in reasearch and development. They also make billions at the expense of consumers. What is more important? Pharmaceutical companies making billions or millions of poor people dying around the world because medicines are too expensive? People forget how hard pharmaceutical companies have fought to protect their "patent" rights, while at the same time millions of people died in developing countries because profits took precedence over compassion.

Ferris Bueller: A&E here is for those who have something wrong with them that cannot be dealt with by a GP. A&E is for emergencies. It is more cost effective to have 24/7 GP services, 24/7 medical advice and 24/7 home visit GP's.

Going to A&E for minor stuff is a waste of money and time. I heard that this is the way in America, but did not believe it, talk about jamming the bread or what!!

Czuch: Ya kidding me.... You are not serious on that are you??

Artful Dodger: Hang on.... the material 'freebies' are moot. We are talking healthcare. And regardless of even if their was maximum employment, thinking that is 100% of adults is a myth. This is an economic fact of the way things are.

And if you don't think healthcare is considered a morally right thing to have. Live without it then.

Ferris Bueller: They also do it at less cost than the US

Yes they do... because they have us to bear the brunt of their costs for them!!!


Look at Canada.... they have cheaper pills than we do, right? But who bears the cost of making those pills.... the cost of the research and the regulatory hurdles and trials and manufacturing??? Thats right, the US does

So our pharmaceuticals dont simply have to recover the actual cost to make a pill, they have to recover the total cost to make and develope a pill... but Canada will only pay them a fair profit for the cost to manufacture the pill, so the burden to pay the cost for the development of that pill goes to you know who, the American public

Now, make the US another Canada, and who are we gonna screw over to research and develope these cheap medicines for us????? Mexico maybe????

The only way the rest of the world gets away with socialism, is because the US does the brunt of their work for them, but once we are all socialists, then who will be left to burden the load????


Sorry, gotta run, later I will explain to you how thinking that health care is a "right" makes you an idiot

must be "benefit day" no reaction...lower class benefits...

We need a new concept of rationalisation. 'Reason' comes from the same root, Ratio.

The "air cushions" in power have to get brought down. Can you see "air cushions"? There were days they were called alpha leaders. Pumped up with hypocrisy, ignorance and criminal energy.

Artful Dodger: Its difficult to make a point with "human rights", isn't that an other world of UN-freaks and such. Where would this lead if we'd talk about a human right to have a job? Choke in bureaucracy? For too long it has been honorated to literaly "do nothing", speak rationalisation at any price, destroying jobs in favor of a shareholders value, this cynic hope to solve all ones problems at wall street. The organizers of the courrent ways *did destroy* a sane structure of the society for honorating pale theoreticians and declassify those whose hands can get dirty for work.

It's">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR2009082101778.html?referrer=facebook

It's not all "socialists" out there & shouldn't be dismissed as such.  But unlike America, all these countries assume Heathcare is a right, not a privilege for some.  They also do it at less cost than the US.  And don't give me that nonsense that the poor can get care in the ER.  That is not a viable option & takes up space for true emergencies. 

Bernice: That 's like sect. 8 housing in the US, some have the audacity to complain about the location of their housing

Artful Dodger: I agree with ScarletRose and you AD....it is the 'nere do nothings of the earth that expect everything for nothing...........

Artful Dodger:  Whoo hoo.. you go! I hear ya.. I started working at just barely 15..

Czuch:  I'd say no to that.  It's no more a right than one has the "right" to a free home and free electricity.  How about free cars too?  Can't get to work without a car.  For that matter, everyone deserves a job too.  Even lazy do nothings! 

Those that can say yes to the above don't think straight in my view.  Hard work gets all of those things.  I grew up in a family of 9 and the only thing that was ever handed to me was a mop to clean up and my brothers old clothes. 

Czuch: If the duty weights more but it doesn't. It should be the will to offer health care, but it's about a billion you'd be unlike to go on cruise with except to sink the ship.

How can it be so?

The elites can't make peace without us.

We have also reduced the healthcare system to a matter of money. Spend billions to run it, complain about those billions when it gets too expensive. Pay billions to private insurance firms. Sue doctors for millions when they make a mistake. We have reached a point where money and profit have taken precedence over well-being and compassion. Not that capitalism wasn't always like this!

Übergeek 바둑이: In some extreme parts I observed a increase of taxations of 600, 1000 and more % within a decade. When in health care things money is floating away, has this anything to do with capitalism? The political effect of this theft is that people with normal wages are left by themself, something like being forced to pay more for milk to get a balance with the farmer. This money is just floating away, we are slaves.

What's kind of strange with the horrible nurses is the reaction. Instead of increasing the staff they make some nurses quit the job.

Oh and registrated that Iran whose citizens are prohibited to mix up with the crowd in Mekka seeks to stress.

Anyway, as a nurse you can work round the world. Fastest way to ground the nhs is probably if simply all the nurses quit their job :)~

The main point of the Pirate party is copyright, and archaic ways of the law regarding form of such.

Why is it that the 'patent' system makes drugs so expensive? How much profit is acceptable regarding an item that saves lives? Why can't we be like China in respect to the main source of buying software is to download legal copies inclusive of manual and cover? It's cheaper and perhaps... the software companies will sell more.

.. It's also more ecological!!

And btw Lads and Lasses ... the one million is a made up figure, an extrapolated 'if'.

Übergeek 바둑이: And at the same time our leaders wine and dine. .... and so do the boards of health companies.

As well as change in the 'sue' laws, the laws over medicines needs to be changed. I know they have to research things, but currently new medicine prices can be daylight robbery. Maybe we should all vote for the Pirate Party.

(V):
No matter what the system (public or private), there will always be selfish, uncaring and incompetent people. Most midwives, nurses and doctors do their job to the best of their ability, but there are always those who do the job just for the money, or who don't care if patients suffer or not. Then there are those who are just neglectful and stupid. I think we could look at any system in any country, and always find cases like this.

To generalize and say that everyone is the same would be unfair, because there are people who work hard and who love their work. I am sure in most countries at least 10% (maybe even 20%) of the people had bad experiences with the healthcare system. Even in countries boasting great systems you will find problems. Most cases are the product of simple neglect or laziness, then a small percentage is the product of gross incompetence.

There should be a better way to assess the work of doctors and nurses without making them feel like they are on the line of fire. Here in North America lawsuits are very common. I am not sure if the lawsuit system helps the medical and nursing professions. It just makes doctors and nurses feel that when they do a good job everyone loves them, and when they make a mistake everyone is out to get them.

We have also reduced the healthcare system to a matter of money. Spend billions to run it, complain about those billions when it gets too expensive. Pay billions to private insurance firms. Sue doctors for millions when they make a mistake. We have reached a point where money and profit have taken precedence over well-being and compassion. Not that capitalism wasn't always like this!

Pedro Martínez: As in some bad apples in all the NHS trusts... yes. The Nursing and Midwifery Council say complaints are about 1 in every 500 nurses/midwifes. Most complaints seem to be about drug/alcohol abuse, and as such are a police matter, who tell the NMC of any convictions. But this could be said of any health service worldwide. Or in any service serving the public

I've seen video's of policemen from various countries assaulting civilians with for no reason. Bus drivers ignoring that an old person cannot move fast, not giving them the time to get on the bus despite that persons obvious effort to catch that bus.

The solution.. fire them.. prosecute if needed.

(V): I agree. It's much bigger.

Snoopy: It would be a national disgrace if it was symptomatic of all the nurses in the UK... but it isn't.

In any organisation you will get a few bad apples, and the NHS is no exception. But those nurses who get done for what they have done, will be struck off... same as a doctor can be. They will be banned from being a nurse in the UK, and as much it will stand up in any application they do anywhere.

"why did you leave your last job.. I was sacked for being a bad uncaring nurse"

Artful Dodger: Your font is not as big as God's final message to the universe though.

Artful Dodger: It's an estimated figure by the paper. They have no actual figure of a million.

Helps sell da paper though

Artful Dodger:  I'm sure you can find similar examples of abuse in nursing homes in the US.  They aren't the majority, like the abuses reported in the British NHS are not the majority cases there.  Any amount of that type of neglect or abuse aren't acceptable anywhere & remedies are paramount, but it doesn't represent an entire system.  As pointed out in your article, over 92% of patients in the British system rate their care as good or excellent.

Bernice: Yeah but my font is bigger!