Czuch:  You dont get to see your opponents dice before he does, which seems quite appropriate.

alanback: In an auto pass it is okay to see the dice first, and since they are supposedly already rolled, why not show them?

Czuch: I agree. If the dice are rolled, show them. It doesn't matter whether either player or someone else is the first to look at the board (as long as it's not private). If anyone looks at the board, BK should show the current status of the game (which includes the rolled dice). Anything else is just dumb.

It's obvious to anyone who has played at GoldToken or Dailygammon and been glad that they can leave the board knowing the dice that have been rolled that it's a Very Good Thing.

playBunny:  IMHO it's a silly thing to be concerned about, but if most people want it, it should be implemented.

Just more evidence of our inability to postpone gratification :-)

alanback:  Of course, on Dailygammon it's even better, because you get to see your opponent's moves before they are made.

alanback: Just more evidence of our inability to postpone gratification :-)

Isn't postponement of gratification best done when there's reason to; some benefit from delaying? I'm not sure what that benefit would be in this instance, nor what harm comes from knowing what the dice are when you leave the table.

playBunny:  Ah, but the desirability of seeing the dice -- and the felt need for a change in the current system -- arises only from the need for immediate gratification.  Gratification implies a need that is to be gratified.  If the need did not exist, the issue would not arise.
No question of justification was involved, merely an observation. 

alanback: There is obviously not any real need to see the dice, rather a desire to see them, except where there is a concern that the dice are less than random, and seeing is believing.

Showing the dice just takes away any concerns, whether founded or not.

alanback: Hmmm, I wasn't querying whether there was a need for gratification - it's a given. My query is about its postponement in this instance, namely the benefits of postponement versus the harms of immediate gratification.

playBunny: Dont you mean the harms of postponement vs the benefits of immediate gratification?

I believe that is more the point here?

Czuch: No, I tend to state a position and ask questions as accurately as possible and that way round is not what Alan was suggesting.

playBunny:  The need for gratification is not a given, it is a creation of the egoic mind and ceases when understood as such.

alanback: Why is this such a big deal. We are here for one thing... fun. The game would be better if the dice were shown straight away when they can be because that would be... more fun! So do it already. What more is there to say?

Thad:  I suppose the only thing to say is that there is more than one opinion as to whether the game would be "more fun".

alanback: So you actually think BK's current implementation is better than it would be if the dice were revealed as soon as possible?

Thad:  Neither better no worse, for me.  If most people think it would be better with the dice revealed, as a matter of customer service they should be revealed.

Thad: Only better because we would not have any wonder if the dice rolling is completely random and fair, I dont think its not, but it makes me wonder when the dice are rolled but not shown.

Czuch: Now that's just paranoia!

alanback: Maybe so, but my paranoia could be eliminated if after the dice are rolled , they are also shown!

Czuch:  Jeez, so now Fencer is responsible for your mental health too?

alanback: It just makes sense to me, that if the dice are already rolled, then they should be shown, or they should be rolled only when the player goes to the game.

Now i have made myself wonder.... if a player goes to a game and doesnt move and then i go look, are the dice shown or hidden?

Czuch: Only better because we would not have any wonder if the dice rolling is completely random and fair,

How does knowing what the dice are sooner than later inform you about their fairness or crookedness?

playBunny: In auto pass games I know that my opponent has rolled something that lets him back in from the bar, but since I am not shown what the roll is, i wonder if maybe the program has determined that he will get back in but doesnt determine which, of a combo of possible rolls that let him back in, roll to give him.

i know, you dont have to say anything, but i just wish, since the roll is already determined, that it was also displayed

Czuch: Well, all I have to say about that is insert what I don't have to say.

Czuch: I highly doubt that the dice are unfair. To make them so would require a lot of code. Plus Fencer probably has better ways to repercuss those he does not favor!

However, I would surmise that the dice are not random! After all, it's pretty hard to get a computer, which is designed to do the same thing exactly the same way every single time, to do something repeatedly and get a different result.

But I would guess that they are pretty close. ;-)

I'm sure they are close enough that it would take some serious statistical analysis to prove otherwise.

And even if there is an advantage or disadvantage to the dice, either players is probably just as likely to receive whatever benefit there is, so I believe the game here is fair.

Thad: I don't remember which website it was, (Could have been here, could have been one of the others I play at), but I think one way they make them "random" is by determining the roll by the exact fraction of a second that the player clicks on the game to play it, thus somehow determining the roll. (Which I guess, technically, isn't random at all)

Or maybe I dreamt it.. LOL ...

As has been discussed before, I think most people only "remember" those times that they don't seem very random.

There are times that I, too, would like to see what my opponent's roll is going to be.. (Though, honestly, I don't care that much) I think it is because on a turn based site, it can be SO long before you see the game again, that it's nice to see what your opponent may do with his/her next move, and make a judgment on the move you just made. (Whereas if you have to wait until it gets back to you, your own move isn't very "fresh" in your mind)

rod03801: I've read that too. In fact, I used that method in some programs back in my coding days.

Another vote for revealing the rolled dice. Do we really have any for not revealing them (other than folks who think Fencer shouldn't implement it because he should use that time to work on something else instead)?

Thad: exactly. Everyone needs to prioritize their work. This seems like something that is a low priority since it doesn't actually affect the game in any meaningful way.

grenv: Ok, but how hard can it be? And what other changes are being made that keeps Fencer from doing this one?

Thad: I suspect sitting in a bar drinking beer would be a slightly higher priority. It would be for me.

rod03801: I think I remember hearing the same idea about video poker and one arm bandits in casinos too.

That the exact time that you push the button or pull the lever determines what the outcome will be.