Czuch: Really?? Since when? I mean, isn't it true that many USA private individuals have been storing their 'cream' in offshore accounts to avoid taxes.. Over 100 big building companies over here have been caught fiddling the books. ... Madoff, etc, etc, etc. Believing something does not make it true.

And yes.. it is silly to presume that doctors will just dry up... unless someone invents some virus that attacks people who want to become doctors.. or.. a catastrophic event happens... but in such an event, everyone and everything has gone to the dogs as the infrastructure/economy will completely collapse..

But people will still care about people. It's hard wired into us.

(V): All I was saying is that people around here are carrying sign in protest of our health care that read "health care is a right" and it cannot be a right and there is no way a government can give that guarantee

Just because you think something is silly does not make it impossible...


and to answer your question.... why do you want a system that is abused by fraud to the cost of billions of dollars?


I just happen to believe that the government is far more fraudulent and full of abuses than most private industry's. I think we can fix what needs fixing, but we dont need to throw the baby out with the bath water

Czuch: In your hypothetical situation, no-one can guarantee someone will become a doctor, but many feel it is a vocation being a healer. But since many people want to be doctors, nurses, etc... your hypothetical is kinda silly. There have been healers of sorts since the beginning of recorded time.... somehow I don't think that is suddenly going to change.

And I think an answer deserves an answer... why do you want a system that is abused by fraud to the cost of billions of dollars? Why do you say such abuse by private individuals and companies is a good thing?

And by your hypothetical.. no private company can guarantee health care either, or any service. well... they don't anyway!!

(V): "at least not my government.....

When I say this, what I mean is not the government I envision....


Ohhhhhh yes it is. And at less cost then your current system, and with less fraud then your current system.


You still havent answered my hypothetical question.... what if you have no doctors, can your government force someone to become a doctor? How can you grant someone a right, when you cannot ensure it can always be provided????

Again, it is not possible to have a "right" to goods or services, since no government can possibly guarantee to provide those goods or services

Czuch: Ohhhhhh yes it is. And at less cost then your current system, and with less fraud then your current system.


"at least not my government....."

And since when have you run America? I've never heard of President Czuch!! Also, since your constitution says for the people, then the government has to listen to the people... which requires a certain amount of sensitivity.

... If you feel you don't need healthcare.. go without.

Ferris Bueller: Well, I'd rather be called an "idiot" than behave like an insensitive "moron".

Sorry, I can be insensitive, but liberals have cornered the market on sensitivty anyway, I am not sure that sensitivty is a requirement of government, at least not my government.....


but I was not calling you a moron, personally, but simply anyone who believes people can have inalienable rights to goods and services, IE health care, ones sensitive side may wish this could be the case, but it is just not possible

Übergeek 바둑이: Sorry I was not around to help clean up what I started earlier....


My point was not that the US has all the good chemists, it was about the companies, and even you admitted that it was a US company that develops a majority of drugs
You claim they make billions in profits, maybe so... but explain why then, if a government like Canada can make socialized medicine a part of their way, why doesnt the same government spend the money and time to develope their own drugs?????


Also, the question about health care being a right, my point was also missed..... we can have rights like the right to free speach, or the right to unlawful search or seasure etc, but how can we have rights to a service like health care?

Lets just say for instance that we are given health care as a right, like the right to free speach.... but now assume that nobody wants to go to school to pursue the medical field anymore so now you have a right to medical care, but nobody to give you that care.... does the government force people to study to become a doctor? What about an MRI, do I also have a right to an MRI? What if the MRI isnt invented yet?

Point is, its not possible to bestow any rights to services or material objects, because there is no way for any government to guarantee those services will be available

Übergeek 바둑이: Yes. It's the trap of primus leadership tradition I like to see broken. Its an instinct I guess but certainly a perverted one. The longer the power addicted can shut up their mouth, the sooner also simple Joe will start to tell his doctor a strait opinion. For this perverted instict: I instictively don't like people who want to govern a place they never saw, have no idea what's going on, never drunk my beer, well, this place I can call my own, the space I know somethings about. We have nowhere to adress our complaints as leadership gets masked by routine. A Merkel for instance governs by filtering the infos she gets, she has no idea how Germans feel about Germany. Not as this would be an excuse, I think she is dumb.

Looking at the news.. It looks like the FBI and other gov depts are cracking down on medicare fraud.

http://www.fbi.gov/page2/june09/healthcare_062409.html

Übergeek 바둑이: Not just the doctors, but anyone involved in inappropriate money making. Management, politicians.. anyone. Also if doctors are caught red handed.. they ought to be struck off.

I've heard talk since the Clinton admin of how health firms buy people off. Such is the profit available that a few million here and there is nothing to them.

Ferris Bueller:

One thing bothers me about this. Have any doctors been prosecuted? It takes two to tango. If doctors are taking perks and kickbacks, the doctors should be liable too. I think a message should be sent to the medical profession too. Being participants in illegal marketing of drugs should have consequences. I think the penalties on Pfizer were warranted and other drug companies should be throughly investigated and fined accordingly. Doctors should be heavily fined too. Their job is to heal people and save human lives. Their job is not to go to resorts and get royal treatment for promoting drugs to patients illegally.

If that isn't interesting. Sarcozy, Merkel and suddenly Brown too want to limit boni in the banking branch undefined appropriately.. The message to me is the story of the ongoing crime. The globalized finance sector is drowned in money. Tax money, crime money and despots money is raining down on +250K problems. It is common knowledge that we need a system change. Is it really worth saving faces of these people who profitated formidably, like Sarcozy, Merkel or Brown? I remember 2007 when Greenspan blubbered something about this dreamteam. Lets not forget that all the mentioned are moraly broken figures.

(V):  Here is an article about Pfizer settlement.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090902/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_pfizer_settlement

Artful Dodger: In certain respects, the stripping of Germany's forces after WWI gave them the advantage of starting afresh in their war machine building. It's why Dunkirk happened. Luckily we had a channel!!! Not just for us, but for the rest of the world.. as a fallen UK would have led to a very horrible battlefield logistically for the remaining Allies.

Übergeek 바둑이: The guys themselves may not have worked for the USA.. but an incomplete (not assembled together) plane was exported to the USA.. As such, it would have given ideas on what could be done.

The fighter/bomber was designed to break the British radar defences and neutralise them. Without them, the air defences that relied on the radar system were 'blind' and would have been unable to stop the German airforce effectively.

(V):

I wouldn't say that modern stealth tech is based on Nazi tech. The Horten brothers developed for the Nazis the first flying wing design andf that design hasn't changed much since then. Since it could fly lower and create less drag, it was about 80% less visible by radar than conventional bombers of WW II. Of course, it was all made of wood and not the carbon fiber composite materials used in modern stealth bombers. Those two brothers were brilliant. I find it interesting that nobody scooped them up after the war like they did with many other Nazi scientists. My understanding is that they were hobbyists and not trained aeronautical engineers. Their designs were unconventional, so they probably were seen as more odd than revolutionary in their designs. It is possible that they might have been unwilling to work for a third party. That design certainly is amazing.

(V):  I would have told you that you were nuts for that last comment.  But ya learn something new everyday.   I can't believe how close they were at developing this bomber.  Like decades ahead of the game it seems.  Here are pics of an exact replica:

1
2
3
4

Übergeek 바둑이: Well I guess it is fair to say that the USA's stealth tech is based on Nazi tech.

Pfizer agrees record fraud fine ...

£1.4 billion pounds... in related news, the drugs companies by blocking generic versions have cost EU healthcare providers £2.5 billion from 2000 - 2007

Fraud seems to be ripping off billions of dollars each year from the USA people through scams by healthcare companies.

And this is great by those who protect it, or just a thing that stays under the carpet?

Übergeek 바둑이: try this link it has even more information.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529548,00.html?test=latestnews

Übergeek 바둑이: Patato peels are interesting too. Once I read about that Hitler casted spells over masses with sonoric voice effects, I can't reproduce what Werner Maser was saying in his book now.

For those that did not knwo what V is talking about, the plane he is referring to is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229

Germany also had another similar prototype bomber designed to reach the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_H.XVIII

Very interesting stuff. You learn something new every day!

About the Nazi nuclear energy project and where Nazi scientists ended after the war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nuclear_energy_project

gogul: Thats like the Swiss "liberals" (Europe liberals, right from center), who are troubled because it's about time to take away their control of money making through nuclear power plants or the overboarding urbanisation of little narrow Switzerland to give just two of many examples. Our liberals and christian people party are really morons.

To me it is pretty amazing, Europe talking now, how some countries make obvious mistakes in "fixing" their health care system, and then to observe (that's the point now) how other countries seem to want to repeat these errors (and indeed do!), as if we wouldn't be able to learn from each other. Nope, if certain political tendencies smell money, they'll start the enrichement tour at disadvantage of the populace.

maybe he's hiding my posts lol

(V) to Pedro Martínez: Everyone has the option of joining a private health scheme here if they want.

(V): You too? How does that work and how much would you pay for? And paying cash money (50£, 120£, 150£) to even get the appointment, that's a priviledge for healthy, young and well earning this private health sheme for everyone you are talking about. Right?

Bernice: I didn't say it was carrying nukes, I said they were close.

And they did fly the stealthy fighter/bomber, and the guys who work for the USA stealth manufacturers built a replica to see it's radar image. It worked!! ...seeing as the USA captured an incomplete test plane and other material related... Amazing what you can build from wood!!

Czuch:  Well, I'd rather be called an "idiot" than behave like an insensitive "moron".

(V): You may not share our intellect which might explain your disrespect for all the natural wonders that grow around you.

?????really???? don't you mean the Germans were closer than anybody else to having nuclear weapons, the Jet Bomber was NOT carrying nukes.

it is all talk, Big talk about a plane that never flew (and still hasn't).

Now before you pounce on me about what has been written, I have just typed this as a WW2 pilot, who flew for germany was telling me. He wants to know where you got your misleading statements/information from?

Übergeek 바둑이: That the USA and Russians had a race to get hold of many Nazi boffins as possible is old news really... anyway here it is. Perhaps due to London being bombed by V1 and V2 rockets. Hitler was close to his perfect weapon, a stealthy jet bomber carrying nukes. No allied plane had a hope in hell of intercepting it, not even the German jets were any threat to them.

We had generations of cosmetic research.... and they wondered why animal free products took off like a house on fire.

Both sides knew that if people thought in numbers their lovely war would flop.. Communists became bad guys and so with Capitalists. So they had to have their toys to show how big they are. The Russians won on that with the Tsar bomb. 57 megatons... Is there any real difference after 1 megaton??

Then there are useful offshoots, GPS, Radar, Asdic, body armour, the jet, etc, etc..

This is the real world and as a race.. we ain't ready to drop using war.. but there comes a point you shouldn't cross in the production of making deadly toys. WWII was supposed to have been fought against mad science and mad men who were willing to pervert the human intellect.

As to why.. too greedy and too busy fighting for research money, and too scared I'd feel about certain consequences of rocking the boat.. especially in the McCarthy era.

(V):

We forget certain things about modern science. First, some scientists have cared and that is why things like global warming and damage to the ozone layer were discovered. A number of scientists and engineers were cynical and worked to develop weapons of different types (nuclear, biological, chemical, war planes, rockets, etc.) The vast majority of scientists were too selfish to care and so they did nothing and just let things happens without taking a stance. To me failure to take a stand is as bad as participating in the wrongdoing. Passing the balme to others and failing to do anything just showed many scientists to be cynical and uncaring.

Much of the impetus behind modern warfare came from anticommunism and nazism as solutions to the growing "threat of communism". Nuclear reasearch, rocket design, chemical and biolgical weapons were researched by Nazi scientists after WW II. Most of those scientists were pardoned for war crimes and ended up moving to the US after the war. The justification was that the Communists were a threat to freedom and democracy and Nazi and Fascists were better allies than Communists were. Western governments have failed to own up to this truth mostly out of embarrassment.

Communists themselves willingly participated in the "weapons race" and the "space race". Their excuse being that an aggressive capitalist front was threating the "people's revolution."

In the end we have the usual combination of greedy politicians and businessmen using ideological excuses to pursue a destructive course. Most scientists (along with everyone else) should have taken a stand, but they were either too cynical, too selfish or too ignorant to care. It just goes to show that knowing a lot of science might make you very smart, but it does not make you a better human being.

Übergeek 바둑이: science for science sake... I can't though say that most scientists don't give a damn, considering those who work to find cures and all. But.. I never understood those who developed the likes of biological weapons. What was the point? The nukes virtually would sterilise the Earth of intelligent life... did the boffins and their bosses want to make this a dead world?

I think though it was considered science could fix everything and as you said.. money talked.

Übergeek 바둑이: Let's hope better, by goodness!

gogul:

> To me it is relevant that chemists are not living in the real world.

This is very true, not just of chemists, but many scientists in other disciplines. Modern science is now 200-300 years old. For most of that time scientists were unwilling to accept the consequences of their actions. Scientists locked themselves away in laboratories and research facilities. They developed good and bad things, like medicines and weapons. Science was able to both save and destroy humanity.

Scientists never took a stand on important issues until it was too late. Scientists saw weapons of mass destruction become a reality and they did not say anything about it until bombs were detonated over thousands of people. The environment was destroyed and scientists stood by marvelling at how clever they thought they were. They saw science turn into big business and they turned a blind eye out of ignorance and greed. Now scientists are trapped in world were money is more important than knowledge or the common benefit of all humanity.

I blame universities for this. When I was a university student we had no courses on ethics or economics. We learned chemistry, mathematics, physics and biology. We became clever scientists with no sense of what was right or wrong, and no sense of how people in the real world have to deal with real problems. Things such as pollution were never taught. There was nobody telling us that weapons were wrong, or that certain forms of research should never be done. Issues such as poverty and human exploitation were considered alien to science.

The result was a lot of very clever, self-centered scientists who cared only about research and money. We became clever in science, and useless at everything else. We knew quantum mechanics, but we couldn't fix a leaky tap or plant a potato if our lives depended on it. We had no idea of what getting a real job was, and how hard people have to work to make a living. If other people around the world suffered, we did not care. People like me were considered odd, because we cared about something other than our own skin. Sadly, some of the most intelligent people I have known are also some of the most arrogant and dumb.

Übergeek 바둑이: Right, money decides. Did it come through how ridiculous the failure of the wall streeties is? As for health care. To me it is relevant that chemists are not living in the real world. The academics who are 'at home' somewhere is a rare species and can usually only be found in the humane diciplines. It might be interesting to be some years here, some years there, but you lose the feeling for the problems of the real world, the world our dear grandmas know :)

Czuch: I know somebody else who deserves the idiot.

>The only way the rest of the world gets away with socialism, is because the US does the brunt of their work for them, but once we are all socialists, then who will be left to burden the load????

If the "rest of the world" is the developed world and "socialism" just the strange alien stuff outside the states ()? The US' priviledge is to get in depts in its own courrency, how far away are we from the money coming 'out of the air'? ;) I don't think that our health care structures are that bad, exept that health care is a self-service shop full of thieves. I agree that health care is a responsability. The mainstream medicine is in substantial parts the pure opposite of health care and believe me this will be so obvious soon enough. We can start the story from the bottom and describe all you people who seem to refuse to get sane about those little problems. Funny will be to see the patent system questioned because tons of little entrepreneurs with their chemist friends have other plans than the big pharma clubs.

Pedro Martínez: Everyone has the option of joining a private health scheme here if they want. The difference being is that the firms cover the whole country. So, there is more competition within the firms, and they can offer the same services throughout the UK.

Artful Dodger: *sigh* we've been over 'free' with Czuch. Yes someone pays in one way or another... VAT, Income Tax, etc, etc, etc.

TANSTAFL!!

Doctors.. nurses, etc cannot expect not to earn even if it is a vocation. Equipment.. etc, etc.

And I think the idea is everyone pays. Through VAT, Income Tax, Corporate Tax, Duties, etc, etc, etc..

Everyone pays in some form or another over here... isn't that fair?

Yet.. over here, with regards to private sector contractors, they have to make a bid, they have to show that they will do the job.

Daylight robbery is a crime here. Several big building contractor firms found out that when they rigged construction job prices.

Is this sensible?

This issue is viewed differently in different countries. In Czech Republic, for example, Article 31 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and Basic Freedoms, which is part of the Czech Constitution, says that "Everyone has the right to the protection of their health. Citizens shall have the right, on the basis of public insurance, to free medical care and to medical aids under conditions provided for by law." But I think it should be noted that this is, more or less, only a theoretical issue. In practice, the Czech health care system is not too different from the U.S. one. In spite of stating that the free medical care is a right, and a fundamental right, of every citizen of the Czech Republic, the wording of the provision allows the lawmakers to adopt laws that limit the extent of the free care. Just like in the US, everyone here has the access to health care and nobody is deprived of it, but those with insurance definitely have a better position, obviously.

(V): Access may be a fundamental right to every human being but free care isn't.

Übergeek 바둑이: If that is so.. then the Hippocratic oath means nothing. Centuries upon centuries of medical research by those who strove to save life thrown away for a dollar!!

(V):

> So... who's to decide who lives and dies in your world of "not a right"??

In Capitalism the answer is simple: MONEY DECIDES!

Artful Dodger: So.. ok, I thought you implied that certain people should not have healthcare as a right, I didn't think it was a matter of a certain nationality.

So, who are these people?

Artful Dodger: Barney?? He loves everyone!!

Besides.. he's in hiding after the Barney toy business... there is only so much a sane man can take.

(V): Gee, I looked at all my previous posts on this topic and I can't find any posts where I asked that.  Maybe you could point it out for me.

(V): The purple dinosaur.

Artful Dodger: But you are asking that people in your country don't?

... Thought part of the American revolution was to get rid of the class system??

Artful Dodger: So... who's to decide who lives and dies in your world of "not a right"??

(V):I don't have to live without it.  I earn it.   Myself.  It's called personal responsibility.