(V): Now see.. you scare me at first.. then you come out with Wit.. I must say boy!! I agree with you 100%..

Our people out here in the West.. or most of America get by on the plastic.. I don't favor them myself.. I learned from my father that you can't afford what you can't pay for.. anyways.. back to my original thought.. 10 years ago.. a young couple who just bought the house across the street from me.. have two dear children and two brand new costly vehicles.. such as a full sized truck and a suburban.. I just wonder what their loans looked like.. scary thought.. even more so then your mask..

ScarletRose: Shhhhhh Don't say the word "scary"... If a certain glob was still here, he'd have you banned!!

But the fraud is no more.

(V): That piccie of you is scary.. reminds me of Chuckie..

Vikings: So who started this 'rule' and why was it not spotted that it wasn't working and corrected? And that ACORN is a community program oriented program... How come the banks couldn't just prove their case that bad loans are bad loans?

"The banking industry made a practice of talking people into buying homes they couldn’t afford." I read because of ACORN... I don't get how a bank can be forced into making a bad loan. I'd fight anyone if I was in charge of a bank against such 'rules'.

I goto my MP, my Government, my Prime Minister... I'd go on TV, interviews for paper and radio....

But over here, it was the banks fault. And not all problems in America are due 'rules'... $50 billion dollar frauds don't help.

ScarletRose: NO!!

A thought..

Would you all mind saying what you need to and keep it short.. like in say.. a one sentence format.. that way it is easier and quicker to read..

We dont have to take up arms to revolt, simply an old fashioned strike by the common people is all it would take!

I am so sick and tired of all these washington elitists milking us common folks for all of their power and prestige and money.... I see pelosi and how soaked up she is in her own importance, so smug in her own rightiousness, and complaining when she cant get a jet from the air force....

we really need some term limits or something to keep these people who are there to supposedly work for us, who end up fat cats off our hard work.... I would love to see pelosi et al back in the job market, these life long politicians mess up everything!

The Usurper: The revolt I have in mind holds both government leaders & financial/corporate leaders to the fire.

But it all starts with the government.... you cant have bad corporations and monopolies etc, without first having a government that allows all this crap!

Artful Dodger: They give the fat cats millions in bonus money. That stinks more than a pig farm!

If that is true, then the federal government is the pig farm!

Czuch: "I am almost rady to join Usurper, and hold a peoples revolt against this governemnt of ours!"

I don't advocate taking up arms against my government, which would require more stupidity than bravery. I don't even advocate violating unjust laws, unless push comes to shove. I mean, if they make a law saying I have to shoot my dog, it is time to break the law. But if they make a law saying I have to wear a seat-belt, I'll do it, whether I agree with it or not.

Intelligent "Revolt" requires a real recognition of the dangers we face as a nation & world, and an examination of our own willingness to stand up and be counted for the long haul. It requires a strategy with a true possibility for eventual success. It isn't easy to come up with that kind of strategy.

The best I've seen so far can be found here:

http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/freedomcontent.cfm?fuseaction=strategy&refpage=membership

This is Freedom Force. The author of this strategy supports Ron Paul and is a Libertarian who stands for Individualism, not Collectivism.

(V): well the banks over here were forced to give bad loans, first the door was left wide open by the senate that set it up for the banks to make these loans then the larger banks that are now getting the bailouts were sued by the likes of ACORN forcing them to give these loans. Small banks were not targeted by these groups and therefore did not do business this way and are not in trouble. (I actually had a talk with my bank manager over this)

Vikings: Nope, I disagree on that. Seeing as we've had alot of incidents over here regarding banks, and some inquiries have been made.. and some whistle blowers have blown.

Much of the banks mess is due to their greed and recklessness. Eg.. one of the banks we've had to save over here was due to it ignoring warnings from it's own risk assessment team..... they even bought a bank (or part of) without having a full accounts statement from them.

As for government corruption... that's why need revolution, and in some form it is happening... at least over here thanks to the freedom of information act.

Btw.. one building company went broke yesterday... didn't help that they bought a ruby worth over 10 million pounds just two years ago... No news over if they will sell it to bail out the company, seeing as the business is only short £2 million (approx) technically looking at it is owed £2 million from work done.

Artful Dodger: I agree with you absolutely on this issue.

"True Christian consistency does not consist in stereotyping our opinions and views, and in refusing to make any improvement lest we should be guilty of change, but it consists in holding our minds open to receive the rays of truth from every quarter and in changing our views and language and practice as often and as fast as we can obtain further information. I call this Christian consistency, because this course alone accords with a Christian profession. A Christian profession implies the profession of candor and of a disposition to know and obey all truth. It must follow that Christian consistency implies continued investigation and change of views and practice in conformity with increasing knowledge. No Christian, therefore, and no theologian should be afraid to change his views, his language, or his practices in conformity with increasing light."
--Charles G. Finney, 19th Century Revivalist

I would only add that his point speaks a general truth about intellectual candor, or philosophical honesty, and therefore holds true even if one removes the "Christian" from his statement.

Even over the last couple of months, during the time I've been debating on this board, some of my views have changed. Generally, it is not that I reject the conspiratorial view of many events, such as 9/11 and others. I do not. But it is that I recognize the solution has to be a return to Constitutional principles of liberty and therefore all forms of collectivism must be dethroned.

Vikings:hmmm, maybe.  But not all banks went to the extremes that some banks did.  And they weren't  forced to insure these bad loans like they did.  When the loans went sour, the insurer was liable and of course, they couldn't  pay.  It's a huge mess and I agree that the government screwed up big time.  But the "fat cats" also messed up and here they are almost out of money, so they get help from the govt and what do they do?  They give the fat cats millions in bonus money.  That stinks more than a pig farm! 

Czuch: The revolt I have in mind holds both government leaders & financial/corporate leaders to the fire. It is the unwholesome partnership that is destroying our Republic. Please note there is a great difference between Constitutional Government & Corporate-Controlled Government. And please note also, that there is a great difference between free market Capitalism (the only Capitalism really worthy of the name) and Monopoly Capitalism, where governments collude essentially with economic & corporate cartels, and competition is eliminated. This is an arrangement which is destroying our free enterprise system, which has always been the backbone of the America. That's what we have. And if we blame the government alone without seeing the bigger picture....or vice versa, if we blame the business cartels alone without seeing the bigger picture....then whatever revolt we organize will fall short, for lack of real understanding of the enemy.

Czuch: That's what Glenn Beck is slowly starting to organize

Vikings: I love this point!


Bam gets all hot under the collor about these executive bonuses, but I see he turned a blind eye on all the pork he has signed already! Not to mention the raises they all happily voted for themselves....

I am almost rady to join Usurper, and hold a peoples revolt against this governemnt of ours!

Artful Dodger: I also agree that the money has been squandered. I see (V)'s point, that the business sector must be accountable. But I also see Viking's point, that the government leaders must be accountable. My perspective is that we are looking essentially at a partnership. These business leaders fund the politicians & offer them jobs upon leaving office. While in office, these politicians serve those who put them there. You and I, the voters, are forced to choose between "picked" candidates...not ones we we really want, but ones put forward & funded by the business men. I hope we can all agree that, whatever one chooses to call this process, it is neither Capitalist nor Representative.

Artful Dodger: I somewhat disagree, first of all these banks were forced to make bad loans and then were forced to take bailout money, they were given the money no strings attached, the government wanted them to make more loans but instead they wisely invested it, just like most people would do with a windfall.
secondly, They are being demonized for doing exactly what the government does, frivolously spending money, when the government does it, it does nothing for the economy (ie. wasted fuel for nancy peloci's private plane rides home every weekend), when the banks do it, it puts money back into the economy(ie, buying jets that create jobs)
until the government stops wasting money, I won't complain how corporations spend money

(V):   I totally agree.  They have squandered the bailout money too.  What  a waste.  And once again, the little guy is paying for it all. 

... I see AIG executives are being the usual fat cat ...... I can't say the word here.

Hopefully Your Pres will learn from the UK and find the contractual minimum or take the company to task over the bonuses that the .. ...... ... want to pay themselves out of your taxes.

As our PM and Gov say.. why should failure be rewarded?

Artful Dodger: Over here we get two bins supplied by our council, one for un-recyclable stuff (green), and one for recyclable items (blue)... Except for glass. That our point of recycling is less then 5 minutes away.

... We never chuck away stuff that could have a second life, or have items from within that are capable of being used for a repair job on an item. The number of assorted screws and fixings I've kept back from deconstructing ietms no longer suitable for our home fills a large plastic box.

We have a recycle point for clothes at the glass recycling point (as well as paper), for the third world needy. Charity shops always get our non-needed good stuff... Clothes, toys, etc. I gave them a router last week as since we changed our ISP the new modem comes with wi-fi bulit in.

The Usurper: I don't think it's purely the leaders fault. I feel it's more the business sector, in particular 'weapons' manufacturers that are calling the shots.

..... Shame. As if just a few % of the money spent on weapons worldwide was transferred to social priorities then much of the worlds ills would have the money to be sorted.

... Maybe a tax on weapons manufacturers directly going towards nice causes.

"We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries."

David Rockefeller, Baden-Baden, Germany 1991

--Almost all of the new laws focus on Americans citizens rather than
potential foreign terrorists. For example, the definition of “terrorism,” for
federal criminal purposes, has been greatly expanded. A person could now be
considered a terrorist by belonging to a pro-constitutional group, a citizen
militia, or a pro-life organization. Legitimate protests against the government
could place tens of thousands of other Americans under federal surveillance.--

Ron Paul, addressing the House of Representatives on
November 29, 2001

Listen to Gatekeepers of the Left like Keith Olbermann, Noam Chomsky, Bill Maher or Jon Stewart, and you get some truth. Listen to Gatekeepers of the Right like Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Shaun Hannity or Neil Boorz, and you get some truth.

A lie must be mixed with truth to be successful. Some argue that the best lies are 90% truth. What none of these Gatekeepers do is trace their statements, even the true ones, to the ultimate source. What they don't do is connect the dots, or reveal the real culprits. What they ALL do is ridicule real truth-seekers as conspiracy nuts.

This is what is meant by the term, "Gatekeeper." Because the elite understand the importance of misleading people as to its true agenda, it recognizes that it must guard the "gates" of Truth on both the Left & Right. Truth is the enemy. Thus we have CoinTelPro, i.e., Counter-Intelligence, i.e., Info-Wars.

Some would argue that "it can't happen here." It happened in Germany. It happened in Russia. It happened in Rome. Indeed, it is THE PATTERN. Yet now, because of technology, more deadly than ever. Because, in WWII, for example, other nations could fight against Hitler's vision of fascist world rule. But when the New World Order is established, as much by stealth as by power, and it becomes the only de facto government that exists....who shall fight against it?

Most even refuse the examine the clear-cut evidence that it has been building for some time and is now almost upon us. "As in the days of Noah....."

It is important to understand that the Fascists & Fabian Socialists have the same ultimate goal...the reduction of humanity to serfdom after reducing the global population by 80%, so that the elites will have a wonderful planet all to themselves. It is essentially over the MEANS to achieve this, that they differ. The Fascists favor military destruction, genocide & subjugation of peoples. The Fabians favor "peace," i.e., using stealth, science, technology, indoctrination, 3rd world reduction of food supplies, gradual stealing of our wealth through monetary policies....i.e., a gradual approach to the same Endgame. Unquestionably, a combination & interplay of both Fascist & Socialist policies and models is working to bring this about. And as always, it is the same men pulling the strings of both parties at the top...the Money-Changers.

Hats off to Czuch & AD for calling this one right. I am now convinced it is pseudo-science and a part of the elite agenda for world dictatorship.

I highly recommend a 2-DVD set by Alex Jones called "Endgame: Blueprint for Global Enslavement." I know some of you have a low opinion of Alex Jones, but it is frankly misplaced. In this documentary, he examines not only Global Warming, but also the Eugenics Movement, the Bilderberg Group, the Fascist, Communist & Fabien Socialist movements, the North American Union & the Trilateral Commission....just a host of things...a web really, controlled by the same people at the top. He explores the roots of these institutions & processes and demonstrates where they are inexorably leading us.

Another document highly worth reading is: "The Report from Iron Mountain," by G. Edward Griffin. This report was the result of a think-tank study issued in 1966 by the Dept. of Defense, discussing stratagems for merging the U.S. into a world government. It was understood that a "credible threat" is necessary to cause people to surrender sovereignty. Under the topic, "Finding a Credible Global Threat," there is this interesting statement in the Report, about using the "Environmental-Pollution Model":

"When it comes to postulating a credible substitute for war … the “alternate
enemy” must imply a more immediate, tangible, and directly felt threat of destruction.
"It must justify the need for taking and paying a “blood price” in wide areas of human
concern. In this respect, the possible substitute enemies noted earlier would be
insufficient. One exception might be the environmental-pollution model, if the danger
to society it posed was genuinely imminent. The fictive models would have to carry
the weight of extraordinary conviction, underscored with a not inconsiderable actual
sacrifice of life. … It may be, for instance, that gross pollution of the environment can
eventually replace the possibility of mass destruction by nuclear weapons as the
principal apparent threat to the survival of the species. Poisoning of the air, and of the
principal sources of food and water supply, is already well advanced, and at first
glance would seem promising in this respect; it constitutes a threat that can be dealt
with only through social organization and political power. …

"It is true that the rate of pollution could be increased selectively for this
purpose. … But the pollution problem has been so widely publicized in recent years
that it seems highly improbable that a program of deliberate environmental poisoning
could be implemented in a politically acceptable manner.

"However unlikely some of the possible alternative enemies we have mentioned
may seem, we must emphasize that one must be found of credible quality and
magnitude, if a transition to peace is ever to come about without social disintegration.
It is more probable, in our judgment, that such a threat will have to be invented.8"

INVENTED! A la, "Global Warming!" Here is Griffin's article:

http://www.freedom-force.org/pdf/Report_from_Iron_Mountain.pdf


Finally, here is a link to several valuable papers on these issues written by G. Edward Griffin who, whatever else he might be considered, is certainly no liberal. There are about a half-dozen articles in pdf format very worth reading.

http://www.freedom-force.org/freedom.cfm?fuseaction=issues#fic

(V): Thanks for the clips. That's the only REAL way the get & hold the attention of the world's psychopathic leaders. Otherwise they sit & listen to a child with expressions of profound conviction on their faces...immediately after which they carry on business as usual without a second's hesitation. Psychopaths don't stop themselves. They must be stopped.

Artful Dodger: Her father David Suzuki is a very interesting man to listen to.....he also is all about the environment etc.....

(V):I agree.  I think we have at least come through the door.  But I don't get the plastic bags the grocery stores continue to use.  Although those are recyclable and at our school, we are a drop off point for those.  But still, so many things are as you say, single use.  OTOH, we are finding new and unique ways to reuse old stuff.  Hopefully that trend will continue.

Artful Dodger: Then we should behave like that... I mean, in an age of 'recycling' I see more and more products aimed at us that are single use only. They cost more and generate more waste. And practically we've been been able to do the jobs without these products for generations.

All for a profit!!

(V):Agreed.  we are just care givers for the next generations to come. 

Artful Dodger: Certain people having been saying about our children and how we are just borrowing this planet off them for years, decades and even century's.... When the American Indians were asked to sell their land.. they said how can we sell what we don't own!!

As said by one chief in 1854... us 'westerners' just seem to understand the concept that we don't own this planet.

Snoopy:  Here she is today.  She's a Yale grad.  No surprise there.  She founded the Environmental Children's Organization (ECO) at age 9)! 

additional information can be found here and here.

Artful Dodger: yes that was done in 1992 i beleive
she will of course be grown up now properly have children of her own
and has the world listened NO WAY
were still selfish we still break things we cant fix
we still have children having to beg for the right to survive we still polute the water ways

HAVE THE GOVERMENTS OF OUR NATIONS DONE ANYTHING IN THE 17 YEARS SINCE THAT SPEECH WAS MADE

Snoopy:This is a very powerful message and one that's been ignored far too long.  Sure we've talked about these things, but when a person of the "future generations" speaks about it, it just seems to carry that much more weight.  In reality, we only pay lip service to the many points this young girl addresses.

I'm not a fan of the global warming scenario.  My view is that they (the global warming alarmists) utilize bad science and carry their conclusions too far even when using good science.  On the other hand, I totally favor being responsible for the health of the planet.  Pollution, in any form and any amount, is not ok.  I recycle.  Why?  It's the smart thing to do.  It saves resources and it's the most responsible thing to do.  Plastic bottles and be used and reused and reused.  It's totally irresponsible to put them in the garbage when a separate bin for recycling doesn't require much effort. 

Everyone should listen to this young girl's speech.  She speaks very forcefully, directly, and powerfully.  Her message bring total silence in the UN chambers - you can see it on their faces.  It is an indictment against all of us, particularly against the powers of government and the powers of industry.   She not only goes after the carelessness of our environmental attitudes, but also of the neglect of the needy.   I particularly like her comparison of how as children, we teach them to get along, to share, to be kind, to clean up their messes etc.  Then she asks, "Why do you go out and do the things you tell us not to do?"  The leaders just sit there in silence and I'm sure are convicted by her words.  I was.

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are looking to the grown ups to do something useful for them

its a very powerful speech from such a young child

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=63865811753&ref=nf

The Usurper: Or.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To0_jqz_YGk

It was a conspiracy so you may have missed it.

Heres' a current example of how the Military-Industrial-Complex in collusion with the MSM (Mainstream Media) plays us for fools....

"We are being spoon-fed stupid again..."

"I think we are witnessing the military industrial complex defying the President of the United States and using the attacks of 9/11 to upset the public and gain support for their own objectives. That is the nut graph people. The media has spent all day rehashing this, calling in military experts to decipher the minds of the accused without ONCE asking the two obvious question: how and why?"

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Find-Freedom.htm?EdNo=001&At=047228

(V): "Strange world...."

Aye, Orwellian.

Or perhaps Heinleinian...as we have become strangers in a strange land...lol

"Read this first.

"Now, let me explain the Wall Street scam, subsequent crisis, and bailout in a very brief, but effective way for you:

"A thief breaks into your house, steals everything, and leaves you nearly broke. Law enforcement responds by visiting with the thief and the resellers of the thief's stolen goods in a very friendly setting, perhaps lunch at the Four Seasons. Law enforcement then takes the information to government officials who respond by writing the thief and the resellers a check from what is left of your checking account. They decide this too over lunch, perhaps also at the Four Seasons and on your dime.

"Then the same government officials declare that a new and better alarm system should be installed in your home and in the home of all Americans, at a high cost to you of course (The reality is that the alarm system worked perfectly, but that does not matter).

"The thief and the resellers in turn thank these government officials by contributing to their electoral coffers, so they stay in office to help with future robberies. The alarm companies also thank these same government officials by also contributing to their electoral coffers.

"It sounds obscene and seems impossible that such a scam would be taking place, right? You would be outraged if someone who robbed you was rewarded with money from your checking account, right? You would go ballistic if this happened to you, right? Well it is happening to you. This is exactly what is happening to you. The only difference is that you don't realize it because of the confusing nature of how this was done and the jargon used to describe it. Forget derivatives and the other voodoo of it. You were robbed. The robbers are getting rewarded with what is left of your savings. Get it now?

"The role of government in the modern era has become rather clear to me: it acts as a broker for the transfer of public money to private hands. There is no actual governing."

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Find-Freedom.htm?EdNo=001&At=047227

The Usurper: I think the only reason it has not been legalised is due to the drinks industry. As for harmfulness... they did a recent report and it came pretty low... Baccy and booze were at the top of lethality almost.

As you say.. it is all right for groups like the 'CIA' to deal in drugs when it suits them for 'political' reasons, but as one old gran over here said "Why should I be prosecuted for growing my own plant and then eat it? The drugs they had me on from the doctors made me feel sick with other side effects, someone suggested eating a little bit and it works!! No side effects, no feeling sick."

It's a plant.. the only thing scientific evidence shows is that for growth reasons (mentally and emotionally) .... an age limit would need to be set. But seeing as it's already illegal for under 18's here to drink and smoke... but a kid at home can under adult supervision have a weeee dram.

As one scientist said who works for Her Maj's Gov growing tons of marijuana plants a year (in a top secret location) "If they made it legal, but regulated and subject to tax, standards on produce active ingredients (like tar and nicotine)... medically we know it can be of use (I believe your California has 'pot' doctors) .. so why not do it right? I mean, I'm growing a 50/50 THC to CBD cloned plant. My standards are very high as I work for the government.

It's again.. like with anything, people abusing it (same as baccy and booze) that causes problems. But then again, they prescribe morphine products over here which by nature will require a withdrawal procedure if the patient comes off them in the future, they prescribe drugs with side effects that can be real nasty..

Strange world....

gogul: Great! Steiner started out a theosophist but left the society when the (by then) neo-theosophical leaders started to promote & teach absurdities. I've only read his book, "Knowledge of the Higher Worlds," which is pretty heady stuff.

The Usurper: ok thanks that. I have some antroposophic people nearby, she played a role in Steiners biography.