Artful Dodger: "Water boarding isn't torture. Sleep deprivation isn't either."

It certainly is. Try it sometime and see for yourself.

Bernice: Google "white house authorization of torture" and see what you come up with.

Artful Dodger: "Why not just follow their rules with captures."

Because you can't do it without becoming the monster you are supposedly fighting against.

As to having no sympathy for those who hate America, some have good reasons to hate America, such as Iraqi civilians, 750,000 of whom we have murdered. They certainly have the right of self-defense against an aggressor nation.

The Usurper: The enemy in general.  I have no sympathy for those that hate America and choose to do battle with the US.  I believe that for the most part, our troops act properly.  I also believe that for the most part, radical muslums are evil filthy murders.  All of them. 

Depending on your definition of torture, I don't approve of it.  Water boarding isn't torture.  Sleep deprivation isn't either.  Some things clearly are.  But hey, let's adopt their rules of engagement.  Let's treat them like they would treat us.  Whens the last time you complained on and on about the fact that the terrorists behead innocent civilians?  This is standard operating procedure.  When I think of the enemy, I have people like that in mind.  None of them deserve to live.  Why not just follow their rules with captures.  Just take a big knife and slice their heads off (while they are screaming and writhing in pain). 

Bernice: It may be hard to believe, but it is true. The sickos were (and still are) in the White House. Those who carry out the torture are also sickos. How far civilization has sunk, I agree, is almost beyond belief.

As to AD's statement, "Greg knows these things are true because he has bugged the White House," the reason I know these things is that the memos, numerous memos, have been released which prove it to be the case.

Cheney said, shortly after 9/11, that we would now turn to "dark side," and he meant it. So he, along with others involved, ought to be tried, convicted, and hanged for their crimes against humanity.

Artful Dodger: "I have no sympathy for the enemy. NONE."

So be more specific. Does that mean, if a man is captured, and then tortured until he dies, you have no sympathy for him? Do you think that is ok?

And are you convinced (apparently you are) that every man our troops captured and imprisoned, and tortured, is the "enemy"? In spite of vast evidence that people were just rounded up?

Bernice:Greg knows these things are true because he has bugged the White House. 

The Usurper: well I personally think it is a couple of "sickos" that do the damage and give the rest bad names....

Like someone that tortures animals - cats, dogs etc to death...they are sickos.

I find it extremely hard to believe that dozens of people would condole torture of any kind, let alone think they would pass on an ORDER? to do it?????

The Usurper: I have no sympathy for the enemy.  NONE.

Artful Dodger: I, too, sympathy with those on the battlefield. On both sides, frankly. Perhaps you think that is too big-hearted of me. But soldiers don't choose their wars. As for those who want to rule the world, I think it pretty well established that we are guilty of that.

Bernice: I'm very serious. Wake up and learn that torture was authorized by the White House.

The Usurper:I agree with the last post.  But I also sympathize with the difficulties of fighting an enemy that blends in.  You can't know who the enemy is.  I can't find any sympathy for people who want to rule the world and see us all forcibly converted to Islam or have our throats slit. 

Artful Dodger: "Frankly I prefer them dead to our guys."

Sorry if I connected the dots on your statement. We are talking about murder and torture. You said you prefer them dead. But they died through torture. It simply follows that you support torture and murder. You certainly did not clarify your statement, to segregate it from the discussion at hand, which I find terribly irresponsible at best. You might have said, "Although I do not support murder and torture, otherwise I prefer our enemies dead."

The Usurper:*** ultimately with the White House & Congress.***


are you serious?

are you saying that Pres gives the order to viciously torture and it goes on down the line to the private in the field......


sorry.......


C R A P

Artful Dodger: No sir, I don't prefer a dead American. I prefer we get those troops out so they will neither kill or be killed. I support the troops, as human beings, more than any gung-ho warmonger.

And the blame for atrocities committed by soldiers in "the line of duty" lies with those who give the orders....ultimately with the White House & Congress.

The Usurper:"At least you admit you agree with torture and murder."

If I agreed with that, I'd say that.  Using your way of assuming things from what's not said, I can say that at least you admit you'd rather see our soldiers ambushed and killed and that you are in favor of protecting the enemy.  You prefer a dead American soldier over a terrorist.  Jane Fonda would be proud.

Step out Bush, step in Obama.

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Find-Freedom.htm?EdNo=001&At=046164

Artful Dodger: At least you admit you agree with torture and murder. I'm sure that makes you a Great American in Shaun Hannity's eyes.

The Usurper:I don't care what the ACLU says.  They are a group of radical nuts so whatever they have to say I shrug off.  They have many axes to grind.  I don't trust them.  So if the story is true or not, I don't  know.  And without all the facts, I can't make a judgment.  Frankly I prefer them dead to our guys. 

Just google "Operation Mockingbird" for starters.

The CIA is the enemy of any true republic or any true democracy.

I meant, "ignore the evidence"

Artful Dodger: So you think the ACLU forged documents blaming the U.S. government of murder, then the AP sent this story, along with the forged documents as evidence, out on the wire....which every news media organization except 12 recognized as a forgery, therefore didn't report?

Are you kidding me? If that were true, the media would have a field exposing the forgery, especially the right wing media....and the ACLU would be prosecuted for slander.

I even pasted a link to Google images of its effects on the unborn. But no one even commented on it. "It's too terrible to comtemplate, so let's pretend we didn't see it, or tell ourselves it can't be true."

Yes, it is true. Depleted Uranium causes radiation poisening, and has a half-life of 4.5 billion years. Our soldiers are infected, the Iraqi people are infected. This is what we coat our armor-penetrating missiles with. It is an evil weapon and only an evil regime would use it. And every sane person knows this. So it is better to ignore the ignorance, or question its validity.

The Usurper:Well you haven't proven that yet.  It may or may not be true.  I don't have any solid facts other than your word.  I don't consider anything from the ACLU credible.  So another source and no far left radical Alex Jones stuff please. 

Artful Dodger: It is true all right.

The Usurper:  If it's true.

Artful Dodger: Perhaps not. But that's a side issue, is it not? The real issue here is, the U.S. tortured people to death on multiple occasions.

The Usurper:  Not true. 

Artful Dodger: You've been programmed not to by the corporate media. More importantly, the documents obtained speak for themselves.

The Usurper:  I've never trusted the ACLU

http://www.aclu.org/intlhumanrights/gen/21236prs20051024.html

I forgot the link.

This news item was carried in less than a dozen of the thousands of U.S. media outlets, including newspapers, television, radio, magazines, etc. In newspapers, where it was carried, it never made the front page. None of these few media outlets who DID carry the story, carried it more than once.

This is called cover-up by the so-called Fourth Estate. Cover-up of what? Murder by torture.

Note, of 44 autopsy reports carried out by U.S. military doctors, 21 causes of death were listed as "murder," and 23 as "heart failure" during interrogation. Lacerations, broken bones, contusions, you name it.

I didn't know of this. I bet no one here knew either. I listened to a speech this morning, where I learned of it. The ACLU sued for these documents, and eventually got them.

The Usurper:

Artful Dodger: LOL My momma told me never to rock the boat.

The Usurper:  This is what ticks me off about you most.  YOu never find anything controversial to discuss. 

The Usurper:  Probably

"The CIA. itself a ruthless, terrorist organization inspires terrorism in response. In some cases, notably the CIA and al Qaeda, the relationship between the CIA and terrorism is symbiotic. The CIA has perpetrated an “American Holocaust”, the deaths of some 6 million people from its inception to the year 1987. As Long as the CIA Exists, the US will never be safe from terrorism."

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Find-Freedom.htm?EdNo=001&At=046866

Czuch: "You got no problems with any of that crap????"

Either you're missing my point or I'm missing yours. I told you what I think of Al Gore. I told you what I think of all the corporate news media, both liberal and conservative. Why, if I reject all of it, would you then think I have no problem with any of it?

Artful Dodger: You're confusing spiritual death with physical. lol

The Usurper:  I thought Baker would be dead by now.   

Artful Dodger: I think Ron Paul may be the only Congressman, of the Left OR Right, that our Founding Fathers would actually recognize. He is the only I know of who remotely stands on the same principles.

Artful Dodger: You missed nothing. He had no defense against Paul's argument, so he threw straw-man arguments at him, none of which addressed the core issue.

Ron Paul nailed it. He harkens back to the Constitution, and accuses the Congress of relinquishing its power to the Executive branch, which - as all history indicates - is a formula for disaster.

Artful Dodger: It'd be better when you let ME know when you've been converted. :o)

The Usurper:  I don't get what Baker was saying.   It didn't sound like he truly addressed Paul's objection.  Am I missing something?

The Usurper:  Let me know when you find one here 

...I can find conservatives, libertarians, liberals, constitutionalists, socialists, capitalists, you name it, against the so-called War on Terror, against the illegal Iraq invasion, and who recognize U.S. complicity in the events of 9/11. :o)

Artful Dodger: lol It's one of the best books you'll ever read. It's worth the price alone just to get to "know" Jubal Harshaw, the old cantankerous, brilliant iconoclast whose view of politics and American culture is sure to get anyone to thinking.

The Usurper:  Still probably better suited here:  Books. 

Czuch: "well I have at least the same on my side, there are just as many people, even more, who will tell me it could have happened just that way"

What does it matter what people will tell you? Where does the evidence lead, that ought to be the question.

As to the Pentagon, you've got one government-released 5-frame video showing a blur & an explosion. However, we have testimony that all other video was confiscated immediately by the FBI (for examples, from a gas station across the street, from a hotel, from the Dept. of Transportation), nor has the Pentagon released video footage from its dozens of surrounding cameras. What does the video you've seen prove? Nothing. What do the unreleased videos prove? Nothing except the government doesn't want you to see them. If there is nothing to hide, why not?