saeco: "thats just ludacris.. feel free to convince me of the opposite."

An article in Foreign Policy Journal has the following:

"Baer also indicated that the 9/11 Commission Report had been a cover-up of what really happened and questioned why certain other oddities about 9/11 had not been investigated, such as “the famous white van”, which he said was “an intriguing story” that “deserves a book”.

"He was referring to the case of the five Israelis who were witnessed on 9/11 celebrating beside their white van at the sight of the smoking towers from a parking lot in New Jersey. They were later arrested and detained. Upon arrest, the driver of the van told the arresting officers, “We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.”

"The van was registered to an Israeli-owned company called Urban Moving Systems, whose owner immediately closed shop and fled to Israel. At least two of the five Israelis witnessed videotaping and celebrating the attacks were learned to be operatives of Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency."

This articles, entitled "High-Fivers and Art Student Spies: What Did Israel Know in Advance of the 9/11 Attacks?" has more:

http://www.counterpunch.org/ketcham03072007.html

To find these, I just googled: "israeli art students celebrating wtc collapse on van"

There are plenty of related articles to sift through.

WOOOOAHHHHH I am glad i put my rubber boots on because some post's get pretty deep I could be here all day reading or maybe week's lol:))))


As old RED alway's said GOD BLESS

(V): "If that is true, then there needs to be a full investigation of 911 ASAP"

It is very true, and one of the dozens of reasons I and many others are calling for this full investigation. Lie detectors & subpoena power, absolutely.

Your point about Israel's influence on the U.S. is well made. This would seem to be part of a joint global for eventual world domination, beginning perhaps with the overthrow of the Arab regions. A full investigation, if truly unencumbered by White House & other pressure, would reveal plenty. And heads would roll.

I usually wake up to a lamblast or two from that fine gentleman. It is worrisome to find the board thus vacant of his sarcastic rebukes and I miss them. It's like being ready for a fight and having nothing to punch. lol :o)

Teasing, of course....but he usually has posted by now, or so I thought.

(V): To further bolster the point, the PNAC document, "Rebuilding America's Defenses," publishing September 2000 & laying out a strategy for future control of the Middle East (with the help of "a new Pearl Harbor"), is a Neo-Con document, many of whose contributors made it into Bush's White House and are duel Israeli-U.S. citizens.

(V): A book everyone should read is this:

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/tfsar10.txt


It has a tacky name: "The Flying Saucers Are Real," by Donald Keyhoe, who....

"...is a graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis. He flew in active service with the Marine Corps, managed the tour of the historic plane in which Bennett and Byrd made their North Pole flight, was aide to Charles Lindbergh after the famous Paris flight, and was chief of information for the Aeronautics Branch, Department of Commerce."

Published in the early '50s, its importance lies in its real-time tracking of the shifting U.S. official response to the widespread UFO phenomena of the time.

The Usurper: Sorry, I had a late start and over 100 new posts to muddle through....

Im starting to see the merit to this theory, especially with it now hitting us smack in the face in regards to the so called "global economic crisis"......

Obama is in cahoots with other government leaders to purposely create a global financial crisis, which will lead to a reaction of fear among the common people, enough to allow us to permit and approve the creation of one global new deal and more, to allow the creation of one global government.....

wE aRe alL dOoMEd......

wow... i'm done with this forum...
i prefer a baseball bat

saeco: As you prefer.

Czuch: Welcome back Czuch.

Won't you be surprised when you figure out your Problem-Reaction-Solution scenario has real merit. :o)

I don't blame the Jewish people, or the American people, or any other people. But the global elites, both Jewish & American and others, are blameworthy.

Franklin D. Roosevelt and his new deal......

http://memory.loc.gov/learn/features/timeline/depwwii/newdeal/newdeal.html

" The New Deal Roosevelt had promised the American people began to take shape immediately after his inauguration in March 1933. Based on the assumption that the power of the federal government was needed to get the country out of the depression, the first days of Roosevelt's administration saw the passage of banking reform laws, emergency relief programs, work relief programs, and agricultural programs. Later, a second New Deal was to evolve; it included union protection programs, the Social Security Act, and programs to aid tenant farmers and migrant workers. Many of the New Deal acts or agencies came to be known by their acronyms. For example, the Works Progress Administration was known as the WPA, while the Civilian Conservation Corps was known as the CCC. Many people remarked that the New Deal programs reminded them of alphabet soup.

By 1939, the New Deal had run its course. In the short term, New Deal programs helped improve the lives of people suffering from the events of the depression. In the long run, New Deal programs set a precedent for the federal government to play a key role in the economic and social affairs of the nation. "

The Usurper: Big business tries to run America but fails badly. The way your lobbyist system allows so much pressure and greed within your political system it's diabolical. It seems that problem with the USA is the level of corruption and 'departments' that are not answerable to anyone.

... Oh I forgot... It's a secret. We shouldn't be talking about such things.... or we might get lent on.

The Usurper: It makes me think that America is heading towards a even bigger crises in the long run. Or..... A lot of people are going to get locked up.

.... It's makes me think that the land of the free is not a land of the free anymore. And the core of your government has sold out.

The Usurper: Interesting that the book confirms other observations regarding UFO's

They started to appear more soon after we exploded atomic bombs.

Maybe they have experience with planets being at this stage of development and choose to send a message in their coming here. "You are the human race and we are visitors from other races... get it human race."

The Usurper: Won't you be surprised when you figure out your Problem-Reaction-Solution scenario has real merit. :o)


hahahah.... what makes you think I will be surprised?


Now too... Al Gore et al are in cahoots to create a big scare over global climate changes, causing john q public fear and panic to the point that we will give up anything..., money, other luxuries, even our economies future, Then they can make tons of cash and power getting us to pay for new energy sources and paying carbon credits taxes and a whole bunch of stuff they havent even decided on yet!

(V): The effects of the New Deal still remain a source of controversy and debate amongst economists and historians...

The consequences were predictably uneven. (See "Recession of 1937 and recovery," below). Whether the New Deal can be credited with the economy's eventual recovery, or blamed for impeding it––and which of its aspects were most effective––thus remains a complicated, and highly controversial, question.

Czuch: Well it certainly didn't cause your country to fall into complete ruins.

Highly controversial... explain.

(V): There are many economists who believe that we would have come out of our depression faster had we done nothing at all.... that the new deal actually ended up making things worse......

I happen to think that is the case right now too

Artful Dodger:

(V): Well it certainly didn't cause your country to fall into complete ruins.


Well, if your point is that a bit of socialism didnt totally ruin the US, well, maybe you are correct.... Now we are getting a dose even bigger than before, I think capitalism can get past this time as well, maybe in spite of it, maybe because it gaver us a boost we need... but I also believe that it wont be too long before we are capitalists using a bit of socialism once in awhile to get us through the hardest times, to becoming socialists


Let me ask you a question... this recession is affecting you guys as well as many other countries with socialized models, what do you do when things get rough????

Czuch:I think that says it all.

(V): "In the short term, New Deal programs helped improve the lives of people suffering from the events of the depression. In the long run, New Deal programs set a precedent for the federal government to play a key role in the economic and social affairs of the nation."

I think this is a correct analysis. Over time, the programs which improved the lot of the common man were gutted, while the corporatism set in place led to the fascist state now entrenched in our political culture. Was this the plan all along? An argument can be made for it.

Czuch: "I think capitalism can get past this time as well"

I have great respect for the libertarian ideal of free market capitalism, because its underpinning philosophy is one of individual liberty in all phases of life. I've said before that a better solution than we have now, for every man, is the end of all welfare, to rich and poor alike, the stripping of corporations of their political ties, the repeal of the Federal Reserve Act, etc.

However, we have also established that you are a not a true libertarian. You don't support a free market (which is the definition of capitalism), but welfare to the rich. It is not intellectually honest to uphold the wonders of capitalism when combatting the socialist tendencies of the left, only to turn around and abandon or undermine capitalism while embracing the fascist tendencies of the right.

Look, we all need to examine ourselves, and get back to basics. Let's remove the inconsistencies and become a united people against tyranny. The intellectual right points out many abuses of power in government, up to an including false-flag operations like the Oklahoma City bombing, the Waco massacre, the unconstitutionality of the Federal Reserve, and even 9/11. The intellectual left points out abuses of power also, such as 9/11, the false War on Terror, the Patriot Act, and the wedding of corporations & government.

So, both the intellectual right & the intellectual left are CORRECT, as far as they see things. They both recognize the abuses of power. But both are inconsistent, in that neither recognizes the full spectrum of abuse, and each neglects to examine its own inconsistencies. But many people are waking up, and recognizing it is time to take back our country from the demagogues in power, both Democrat & Republican.

Artful Dodger: Does plastic count?

Artful Dodger:

(V): "It's makes me think that the land of the free is not a land of the free anymore. And the core of your government has sold out."

That is correct. And if we want it to become the Land of the Free again, it must first become, again, the Home of the Brave. We need an informed, courageous citizenry to stand up to the powers who have consistently & continually violated our Bill of Rights, and asserted control in all our private affairs...and, more, taken our wealth to enrich a few through the slaughter & subjugation of multitudes.

In short, the Contract is null & void. It has been broken by the Government. It is high time to bring this system to its knees, alter or abolish it, and constitute new government better fitted to secure the rights of the people.

Foxy Lady:Plastic will be taxed to the max 

The Usurper:Ron Paul for President. 

The Usurper: I liked one of the comments someone left after viewing that vid.
***If you don't want wars fought in your own backyard don't start them in someone elses.***

Bernice: That's right. Which means Americans have no cause for complaint now should a war be fought on its own soil.

Bernice:Hamas hasn't learned that one.

The Usurper:That's nonsense.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

--The Declaration of Independence

Today I watched a speech by a Libertarian, made at the 2007 9/11 Accountability Conference in Arizona. This speech was very inspiring and helped clarify my thinking.

This speaker has a website, called Freedom's Phoenix (Political News & Opinion), which is run on Libertarian principles. Non-censorship & open discussion is the rule. To give an example of the Libertarian principle at work, one is even free to post an argument there in FAVOR of censorship. In fact, one is free to post any argument at all, and to use any language. It is a free market-place of ideas. It is worth checking out:

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/

The Usurper: sounds a bit like the BK Politics Forum

Bernice: I wish. :o)

hahahaha.........

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Show-Graphic.htm?EdNo=001&InfoNo=046798

Artful Dodger: "That's nonsense."

On the contrary, it is simple demonstrable fact. We invaded Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11, which did not support al-qaeda, and which had not attacked us first. Therefore, we started a war in the backyards of Iraqi citizens.

I watched another speech today, by a U.S. Iraq War veteran. He was a morter-man (sp). He said that in Baghdad not one apartment complex is left unscathed by American morters & plane bombs. He described how he and others were given orders on the ground to murder civilians. The idea was to wage a war of attrition to break the spirit of the Iraqi resistance.

Do you think I make these things up? Do you think the soldier is lying? There are plenty of other soldiers who have spoken out. If I were an Iraqi citizen, I'd be fighting the U.S. occupation tooth-and-nail. And I'd sure as heck prefer to take the fight to American soil, or at least kick the Invader out. Did we "liberate" Iraq? What a joke. No, we brutally subjugated it.

Only willful blindness refuses to see the truth of this matter.

Bernice: LOL I think I'm gonna make this website my homepage for awhile and spend some time checking it out.

The Usurper: "On the contrary, it is simple demonstrable fact."

It's not FACT.  It's an opinion.  You do know the difference right?  If you do, in this case, it doesn't show.

Artful Dodger: What is not fact? That we invaded Iraq without provocation? No my friend, that is simple, proven fact. If your opinion is contrariwise, then it is based on something besides fact.

Artful Dodger: I'm extremely serious. Any American who has supported the unjust & unprovoked invasion of Iraq has therefore no cause for complaint if this unconscionable action comes back to bite them on their own soil. And to the extent that we are all Americans, responsible for the actions of our government, even those who did not support the invasion must nevertheless bear some responsibility for it. After all, their tax dollars helped to fund it. In a perfectly just world, we would pay at home for the lives we have taken abroad. And in the long run, this will indeed be the case. As for the Iraqi citizens, they have the right of reciprocity, just not the power to act upon it. If bringing the fight to American soil would secure their independence at home against a brutal tyrant, they have every moral right to so defend themselves. But naturally, America makes a point of attacking those countries which can't really defend themselves. They might successfully repel the monster after great & terrible loss, but to return the favor is beyond the scope of their ability.

The Usurper:I don't care about any of that.  It's an opnion that you hold, NOT a fact.  I teach this stuff in school and know what I'm talking about.  You are simply wrong to call it a fact.  It's no more a fact than saying Vanilla ice cream is the best tasting ice cream on earth. 

Furthermore, saying it was unjust is also an opinion NOT a fact.  I don't mind you holding the opinion, but if you call it a fact, that tells me you really don't know what you are talking about.

It's also an OPINION that it was unprovoked.  It's a disputable point and since there is a legal definition and an agent definition, you'd have to be more specific. 

It's also an opinion to say that the war was illegal.  Again, I don't mind you holding to this opinion, but you can't call it a fact.  If you do, you are simply wrong and you DON"T know what you are talking about.  There's a difference between opinion and fact and it's pretty basic.