Czuch: No, it is not possible. It's a position where all sides can generally get along better from. The majority are not always right, that's why we have the terms we do now to describe various public moods and ideals. You just can't redefine a word to suit your argument.

(V): Propaganda can do that. That's the problem with the media, Vikings mentioned problems it causes our days. Germany for instance: Best for certain politicians there would be that in 2010 there is no journalism left to analyse the "Agenda 2010".

Czuch: Because not everyone does something, and some companies (like paypal) can make it difficult to sort out matters. In our case, I had to look on the internet for a number I was told did not exist... ie the companies complaints dept number. I was told by all their customer care people I could not call them and would have to just communicate by mail.

They lied.

That's why we need governments to regulate and make laws to protect consumers. In the end paypal might be kicking itself in the bum, but it may take years before things change.

EG.... Our government and the expenses policy which has been going on since the Thatcher days and nobody has within the organisation has spoken up till recently.

Same with your medical system, the health companies are pretty much a law onto themselves... you lobbyist system is lining pockets, etc, etc .... and we have had more over here.

You want a totally free market with no government sticking it's oar in.... Then expect similar with every company. And I'd forget about taking medicines as no-one will be there to stop them marketing and selling rubbish.

Our 'free' market now is costing people lives.. Have you seen how people in India recycle computers? How sweat shops look?? How people earn peanuts, yet we get charged 1000 times more???

A shop I worked for sold one item for 99p some 15 years back... It cost them 6p even with being imported from India... how much do you think the workers earned per item?

(V): Well, on the BK board you made it sound like you thought the free market would take care of companies like Paypal... now you sound like you are advocating for the government to step in?

..and I have never advocated for no government "oar" in the water....

I guess the point I would make to you is that the problem i see most is who gets to decide???

You obviously can see how the free market will weed out the bad companies from the good ones, without the need for the government to make extra regulations, right?

and I can agree that there are obviously regulations that the government can impose that will help...


But if we get too far in your direction, and you expect the government to fix things against the free market doing so, then I ask you, where is the line drawn anyway??? Who gets to decide when the free market weeds out the good from the bad, and when the government does it for us? Thats the slippery slope I dont want to get into personally..

Czuch:  The current crisis in the US AND the UK is a direct result of the wonderful government taking care of things.    We wouldn't be in this mess but for the government (dems and repubs).   That's a fact jack.

isnt paypal owned by ebay now?

Bwild: ask Jules, he knows everything

Bwild: On October 3, 2002, PayPal became a wholly owned subsidiary of eBay.<sup>2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PayPal</sup>

Bernice: lol

Czuch: Most of it is simple morality, But many bosses don't care about that.. just money.

I can see how some will be weeded out by the free market, but some will not. I expect the government to regulate and set rules of good business.

EG banned directors... One guy who had been banned for fraudulent business practices, just set up another business and hoped to get away with it. In your world he would, the government is through info supplied by the public stopping it.

Is that a bad thing?

(V): Fraud is fraud, it is against the law, and nobody is advocating someone who breaks the law be allowed to run a business.... the point is,we already do have laws and rules etc, yes sometimes they need to be updated, or rethought out, but just enforce the laws...

Bernice: Not everything lol noone's perfect Bernice and if they were it would be boring "Yawn"

Czuch: Aye... we have laws and some are outdated or do not cover modern problems..... So, we need Government, but we need one free of corruption. Two Lords over here have been caught talking about taking money to influence legislation as part of a sting op by journalists. This is the kind of thing we do not need.

heavenlyemma: I'm not perfect as you say.. you should know better then all here.

But I'm willing to learn and have adapted some interesting methods of looking at things. Black and white just don't work for me!! Even grey is not enough sometimes.

(V): You have to admit, I'm closer than most

and I did that t for cheap laughs

(V): Yes, it does get maddening when the people elected to do the peoples work end up doing more for themselves, and even at the expense of the people

Maybe we have to look at it more from the point of view that it is not simply fraud or corruption, but an act of treason, that might get their attention a bit, make them think a bit before falling for the greedy, self indulgent crap, if they have some serious jail time, or worse, hang them in a public square

a very high profile baby abuse case in the UK has finally ended with the sentencing of the 3 evil monsters
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8055340.stm


the sentences are not has heavy has what ppl would of liked but considering what has now come to light
we should be somewhat grateful that they were not even lighter
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8062099.stm


and it sends a warning to all the bloggers esp on facebook that all the hate groups set up at the time did more harm than good

of the shocking story just comming to light
on what most parents think is a safe site for children to browse YOU TUBE

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/news.phtml/24272/youtube-porn-attack-videos-uploaded.phtml

GTCharlie: <---laughing cheaply

No pope beni xx something, right?

The Excommunicated Roman Catholic Church.

Has the rest of the world seen the "joke" after typing "Cheney CIA documents" in a search machine?

Right, I'm off the public boards some days.

Heads are rolling.

(V): What's going on?

Artful Dodger: Several MP's have stood down, or been told that they will not stand at the next election. ... And the Home secretary has resigned.. and good riddance!! She was an idiot.

(V):  Wish we could get rid of a few (lots I mean) or our knuckleheads. 

Artful Dodger: Only way is for your fellow citizens to forget party and join together over one particular, or a few universal grudges.... and ya TV and radio to back the USA population. As long as they split ya..

a few whistle blowers helps

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8080777.stm

i dont think he last another month esp if local election results tomorrow night go against him

(V): I agree about the party thing. I don't think we'll get any help from the Democrats on that one and certainly the Republicans haven't been much help either. I think the best bet is the independents and there's lots of them (and the numbers are growing - me for example).

PAT PAULSON for President 2012

Artful Dodger: Trouble is you need as many voters behind it as possible. EG regulation of health care companies. The lobbying system, etc.

It has to be as it started out... one country.

(V): Whatever happened to that cop that killed that pedestrian for no reason?

Czuch: Still being looked into.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6433889.ece


how long can Brown carry on

When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe,
we shall become as corrupt as Europe .
Thomas Jefferson



The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson



It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes.
A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.
Thomas Jefferson



I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the
government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson



My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government..
Thomas Jefferson



No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
Thomas Jefferson



The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson



The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson



To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson



Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:
'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered..'

Czuch: According to this man.... wE aRE AlL doOMeD!!!!

But who is this guy anyway??? Just some shmuck who founded this country.... just some joe shmo who doesnt have any clue about our "modern day" "progressive" society.. what an idiot, dolt!

Czuch: What? No socialist out there want to argue against this ?

Czuch:joe shmo or joe the plummer?

Universal Eyes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8088381.stm


Labour being so unpopular gave them the seats

if these results are repeated in a General Election were in for some very uneasy times

how many "posts" have been removed from here?

Bernice: I'm the only one that can remove them (besides the original poster) and I've not removed any.

Artful Dodger: OK.....was looking for a particular post of Gregs and couldnt find it unfortunately

Snoopy: And they will get more power unless some things change. And it's gotta be more than a scrap of bread.

1995. Mr. Saro-Wiwa, Shell’s most prominent critic at the time in Nigeria

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/09/business/global/09shell.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=shell&st=cse


Shell ...agreed to pay $15.5 million to settle a case accusing it of taking part in human rights abuses in the Niger Delta in the early 1990s, a striking sum given that the company has denied any wrongdoing.

In a statement, the company said the agreement “will provide funding for the trust and a compassionate payment to the plaintiffs and the estates they represent in recognition of the tragic turn of events in Ogoni land, even though Shell had no part in the violence that took place.”

Ten plaintiffs, including the son of Mr. Saro-Wiwa and his brother, accused Shell of seeking the aid of the former Nigerian regime to silence the critic, as well as paying soldiers who had carried out human rights abuses in the impoverished region where it operated.

The Niger Delta continues to be marred by violence and ethnic strife. Much of Shell’s production in the delta is still the target of militants seeking a larger share of the country’s oil wealth.

The prominent case involving Shell was the latest to challenge the behavior of some of the world’s biggest oil companies in developing countries. Companies are increasingly being called to account for their environmental record as well as any collusion with repressive governments.

“We hope this sends a signal. It’s a relief also that we’ve been able to draw a line over the past. And from a legal perspective, this historic case means that corporations will have to be much more careful.”

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/shell_royal_dutch_plc/index.html?scp=1-spot&sq=shell&st=cse

http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/03/clean-energy-funding-trumps-fossil-fuels/?scp=3&sq=shell&st=cse


I love it when a plan comes together.

(V): at least we have freedom of speech and the right to demonstrate

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8091605.stm

"No one realized how bad the economy was. The projections, in fact, turned out to be worse. But we took the mainstream model as to what we thought -- and everyone else thought -- the unemployment rate would be."

"Everyone guessed wrong at the time the estimate was made about what the state of the economy was at the moment this was passed."

These are quotes from Biden..... if this were Bush, I am sure we would have heard non stop about their poor intelligence

Czuch: Its all hypocritical left wing leaning media bias... the one that no liberal will admit