Artful Dodger: Dan.. If you believe that... you've forgotten how the Bible states "even the righteous sin".

Shall I find for you all the death threats Kevin Smith had over making the film "Dogma" by Christians, thinking they are being righteous in the Lord's name.

Artful Dodger: Like the BNP leader leaking an address of two gay guys, so a 'demonstration can be held by white Christians (I use that word only as the label they use) outside.

.. How Christians "think" they can convert gay people as gay people are not gay, just .. not listening to God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sW5yq9mzSs

Dr Bachmann considers gay people barbarians!!

How do you feel about straightening?

Iamon lyme: True.. I wouldn't if could be bothered to google them. TYT usually has plenty of such cases. But hey... I don't need to, for only a complete lunatic would actually argue that there are those on the right who don't do the same thing..

... when everyone who seriously looks at politics knows it does.

I'm more interested in looking at some older history at the moment. How the French helping the American revolution bankrupted the French and led to the French revolution...

40,000 died by the guillotine, one lot of revolutionaries denouncing the last lot and so on...eventually leading to the military taking over via Napoleon.

.. how the man who invented the small pox vaccine has saved more lives than any other person in history.

Artful Dodger: Nope.

But it does seem you are using bad behaviour by the left, to make out the bad behaviour by the right is less bad.

It's all bs. They should be sent back to school!!

Artful Dodger: I didn't say it was wide spread. N' I not going around showing you what you already know exists in some shape or form.

Artful Dodger: In ANY ideology there is gonna be a fraud, or someone who will drop supposed PC behaviour in an moment. It doesn't really matter who champions what!

Your side does it, the other side in America does it, and other get caught in between.

.... On the brighter side... (sarcastic brighter side) the Jimmy Saville (paedophile) business is about to bust wide open. Garry Glitter has been arrested and many more are to come. A dozen plus big name stars are said to be on the verge of being arrested for abusing kids over many years before children got a voice.

The BBC, police, MP's, Prime ministers (Maggie Thatcher) and many other figures and organisations are being looked into over who covered up it all. Many rumours were abound, but Jimmy had friends in high places.

300 plus kids.....

But, it looks like some people who should be jailed never will be.. Time has been bought by those who can assert pressure on the police to delay investigations that date back 4 or 5 years.

Artful Dodger: So do many a conservative "people of the book". Stating that being Gay is against God.

Whoopee ... people like to find words that hurt when angry.. you ain't discovered anything new. .... Such politics that you have no in America that such is bound to happen in a country made into an "us and them" nation.

Iamon lyme: No.

"Pulling fake arguments out of the air and telling people what they think (instead of listening) is what it is."

You do that alot.

Iamon lyme: I don't believe the devil is a fake, I just know the rightful context.. rather than some easy fall guy that you can blame for whenever you are bad, or as a bogey man to frighten people into being good.

Like that preacher who blamed the devil for making him sleep with prostitutes some years back. Or more recently a preacher saying the world is gonna end and needing all his flocks assets to spread the word... ...

... as one scholar on the Bible said.. The date of the end of the world was in 2005. It didn't happen.

Anyway... can't one joke. Lordi made a nice song called "It's snows in Hell" .. it's a play on how men take the Lords name in vain in overusing the Bible... Saying "the devil is gonna get you, you're gonna burn" and all that crap.

"I beat up Mike Tyson and Rocky Balboa"

I beat up Diablo.. the prime eViL

Iamon lyme: No.

btw... Hell, it's a myth. A German word used by lazy translators, not at all present in the original texts.

anyway.. I beat up the devil years ago. Lordi made a song about it!!

Artful Dodger: Doesn't make any difference.

There are instances of God killing Children in the OT.

Artful Dodger: Well, try free will for a start. It seems if a divine creator objected to babies dying... they wouldn't. It seems in the scheme of things... it happens.

That is.. by you and lamons version of how things work.

The Col: A recent attempt was made by one of our Conservative MP's to change the date rules. It failed. Using religion as a 'standard' can't be done here, there are so many different religions, let alone Christian styles.. it would be a nightmare.

Plus, we are well aware of the danger of 'A God' driven system. Our country's history is laden with examples of what happens when a religious or ideological style goes of the deep end.. never again!! I hope

The Col: One would wonder if the Christian Right are trying to get an army ready for the end of days and the big battle... ... the one where only they survive and the rest of the world burns in Hades/Sheol/Gehenna.

Artful Dodger: Regardless... you can't dictate by law if someone can or cannot have an abortion. It's like when being gay was illegal...

... I still remember Rock Hudson being such a macho man in films!!

Artful Dodger: The figures show that there are not enough families wanting to adopt now, for every family/parent wishing to adopt there are 2.5 times as many children waiting.. sometimes for years.

The figures also show that children who have a disability are far more unlikely to be adopted.

So in the end, the state is having to pay for foster care for years, and you want to add more into the system.

Many families think about adoption, not many actually go through to actually adopting.

According to senior diplomatic sources, the US State Department had credible information 48 hours before mobs charged the consulate in Benghazi, and the embassy in Cairo, that American missions may be targeted, but no warnings were given for diplomats to go on high alert and "lockdown", under which movement is severely restricted.

Mr Stevens had been on a visit to Germany, Austria and Sweden and had just returned to Libya when the Benghazi trip took place with the US embassy's security staff deciding that the trip could be undertaken safely......

.......In the event, the perimeter was breached within 15 minutes of an angry crowd starting to attack it at around 10pm on Tuesday night. There was, according to witnesses, little defence put up by the 30 or more local guards meant to protect the staff. Ali Fetori, a 59-year-old accountant who lives near by, said: "The security people just all ran away and the people in charge were the young men with guns and bombs."

Wissam Buhmeid, the commander of the Tripoli government-sanctioned Libya's Shield Brigade, effectively a police force for Benghazi, maintained that it was anger over the Mohamed video which made the guards abandon their post. "There were definitely people from the security forces who let the attack happen because they were themselves offended by the film; they would absolutely put their loyalty to the Prophet over the consulate. The deaths are all nothing compared to insulting the Prophet."

Mr Stevens, it is believed, was left in the building by the rest of the staff after they failed to find him in dense smoke caused by a blaze which had engulfed the building. He was discovered lying unconscious by local people and taken to a hospital, the Benghazi Medical Centre, where, according to a doctor, Ziad Abu Ziad, he died from smoke inhalation.

Artful Dodger: Well then, to save the mother.. an abortion is needed?

Like in most ectopic pregnancies. Except for a small number of cases, it is fatal for the mother to attempt to carry the baby to term. If your law was in place, both mother and baby die. Your morals therefore kills two innocents. Unfortunately, ectopic pregnancies are a fact of life and you cannot dispute how serious the health risks are.

"The vast majority of abortions are done for trivial reasons."

I doubt such a choice is taken as being a trivial matter by those involved.

Artful Dodger: Avoiding .. .. or dodging!!

So.. you'd let the mum die just to have the kid... One innocent dies, one lives. It's not a perfect world.

"It's morally wrong to kill an innocent human being."

So why no gun control?

Artful Dodger: It is bs until the foetus reaches a certain age of development, which is 24 weeks. Before that the brain has no connections to be able to feel pain, nor does the baby have the capability of being concious.

After 24 weeks the baby is in a chemical environment in the uterus, that induces a continuous sleep-like unconsciousness or sedation. But that only applies to late abortions for basically saving the woman's life, or if scans show up serious abnormalities.

That is.. how it is in the UK.

what happens in your mind if by chance you hit a no win situation?

... If the mother has the baby, the mother dies. The only option is an abortion. One will dies either way!!

Artful Dodger: Is the BS about pain ended?

Artful Dodger: Really... if you want to think that, go ahead. It makes your case easier for you to 'be the moral one' .... ... that it has nothing to do with real life is irrelevant to you.

"And the baby feels tremendous pain in an abortion."

At what age of development? Please get your basic facts right, it stops all this BS.

Iamon lyme: And we shall call you Bruno... "know what I mean Harry"

Artful Dodger: The mother to be feels nothing, the father to be (if it's a normal relationship) feels nothing... so you are saying

"Do you mean in the unborn child? Explain"

Basic biology.. look it up yourself.

Iamon lyme: Not around... through. Some of it relates to your certificate.

Don't worry, everyone in the civilised world has one. It doesn't make you special!!

Iamon lyme: But you want control of the Children.

"And in spite of your clever *cough* attempt to make what I say appear to mean something else, the same group of people who attempt to gain access to other people's money are the ones most actively involved in disrupting other people homes and families."

The Banks.. I can agree with that. Nice to know you've seen the light somewhat

Iamon lyme: Satan.... You mean our animal nature, or some strange man made construct adopted from various inputs... ya know, Greek/Roman/Zoroastrian/etc?

"Do you need for me to show you where in the Bible it says that?"

Do I need to show you what I mean?

Iamon lyme: Noooooo the oldest dad is non flesh!!

"Can you imagine what might happen if this family lived in the US (or in the UK) and the media got wind of this story?"

Yes, they'd be comparing him to Mr Charlie Chaplin. ... I think his last one was in his 90's .. or late 80's

Artful Dodger: Really... so everyone concerned feels nothing.. especially considering the development of the nervous system, all the indications are that those that who are actually living as independent beings will feel more.

ie you are not making any sense.

Iamon lyme:That's Wicker man... get it right!!

Have you seen either of the two films?

Artful Dodger: You really think I'm gonna post real horror stories on this board? Of memory scars, things that'll make you wish you could take a 'pill' to wipe the last hour of what you've heard/read.

.... besides.. It'll just get deleted.

Artful Dodger: If the life of the female carrying the baby is ruined through your law...

I don't see you or lemon really answering that. The baby seems to have more rights than the mother to be in your scenario.

If it was a incest rape, the baby was (via scans) shown to be massively deformed... you'd still insist she carries it to term?

This is real life.. not some fairy tale, where everyone lives happily ever after.

" There are thousands of loving homes waiting for a child should the woman not want to raise the child herself."

Guaranteed? No prospects of divorce?? ... some Hollywood star gonna decide they'll adopt yet another baby like AJ likes to do because she can pay off the parents to have what she wants!!

Artful Dodger: Nor me... We have programs full of bloopers, and even on news programs early in the morning things.. slip out. One American doing an early morning slot with his mate to advertise their play said a word that he did not know was a swear word in the UK... ... "It's a swear word?"

Iamon lyme: Exactly.

"In our country it has not been conservatives who work to run end plays around parents and attempt to gain access to their children. The people who are doing this is the same group of people who attempt to gain access to other peoples money.
In our country, we call them liberals."

At the moment you and Art are saying you want access to their children, under a law you want.

Are you a liberal?

Artful Dodger: A classic from his pre factor days!!

Artful Dodger: ... And the girl is not innocent or a human being?

Sometimes there is no 'good' answer.

Would you sign the order to make the girl have the baby against her will?

.. not from an office, but to her face.

Artful Dodger: No it isn't the pro life position, but it is a consequence of the pro life position being law. Just like when you state that God created everything.. you have to include those nasty bugs such as Ebola.

"Well she can't exactly turn around and kill the real badguy: the rapist."

Actually I think with the clarification now done in the UK.. ok, our laws on defending yourself... she could, at the time of the crime being committed. I think our UK laws would even allow for her to kill him after, later on in life if she saw him.. she might face manslaughter, but more likely to be given care via a section under the mental health act.

" But the innocent unborn child can be killed. We just think there's something wrong with that picture."

I think we all think that, but it's not a black and white position. Bit like the decision I was taught at school was behind the use of the Atomic bombs on Japan.

.. "Millions will die defending Japan if we 'land'.. 10's of 1000's of American troops will die taking Japan.

.... we have a bomb that just might break them, but it'll kill 10's of 1000's in the process and slowly kill many 1000's more"

>>>>> What's nice about either option?

Iamon lyme: Are you now saying someone here fantasies about rape, as a even greater avoidance strategy.

.. mmmmm ..

Iamon lyme: uh uh.. your world. N' I know Your playing avoidance games.

Best we can expect from you, leading by example is no longer a great Christian tradition I guess!!

The Col: A death row inmate gets the chance to appeal.

Iamon lyme: For once it'd be nice if you lived to what you expect and give an honest answer to a question.

I'll take it as "It's a catch 22 question for my ideology" .. I'm damned by women if I say I'd force the girl to have a baby.. I'm damned if I say I'd let her abort.

.. that's why the decision is not in your hands, or should be in the states hand, or in the churches' hand.

Iamon lyme: Dude.. your reply was for the Col...

Hypothetically, if the girl was raped and became pregnant.. stated she did not want it, her parents backed her in her decision...

.. in your world you'd make her have it.

Andrew Mitchell has quit as government chief whip after weeks of pressure over an argument with police officers in Downing Street. The Tory MP has admitted swearing at officers in the incident but again denied calling police "plebs".

He told David Cameron - who has stood by him - that "damaging publicity" meant he could no longer do his job. Commons leader Sir George Young will be the new chief whip, Downing Street said.

Mr Mitchell's resignation is a victory for the Police Federation and Labour who have led calls for him to go. But it spells the end of a 25 year political career for the Sutton Coldfield MP, who was promoted from international development secretary to chief whip in September's cabinet reshuffle.

BBC Political Editor Nick Robinson said Mr Mitchell told the prime minister about his decision in person, at Mr Cameron's country residence Chequers.

The prime minister has accepted his resignation.

Iamon lyme: "I'm looking forward to an honest reply."

You were talking to me... or was it Harvey? Ya know.. the big white pooka who befriended Elwood P. Dowd

Great film!!

The period from 1970 through 1972 saw an explosion of political violence in Northern Ireland, peaking in 1972, when nearly 500 people, just over half of them civilians, lost their lives. The year 1972 saw the greatest loss of life throughout the entire conflict.[64]

In Derry by the end of 1971, 29 barricades were in place to block access to what was known as Free Derry; 16 of them impassable even to the British Army's one-ton armoured vehicles.[65] Many of the nationalist/republican "no-go areas" were controlled by one of the two factions of the Irish Republican Army—the Provisional IRA and Official IRA.

There are several reasons why violence escalated in these years.

Unionists claim the main reason was the formation of the Provisional Irish Republican Army (Provisional IRA), a group formed when the IRA split into the Provisional and Official factions. While the older IRA had embraced non-violent civil agitation,[66] the new Provisional IRA was determined to wage "armed struggle" against British rule in Northern Ireland. The new IRA was willing to take on the role of "defenders of the Catholic community",[67] rather than seeking working-class unity across both communities which had become the aim of the "Officials".

Nationalists pointed to a number of events in these years to explain the upsurge in violence. One such incident was the Falls Curfew in July 1970, when 3,000 troops imposed a curfew on the nationalist Lower Falls area of Belfast, firing more than 1,500 rounds of ammunition in gun battles with the IRA and killing four people. Another was the 1971 introduction of internment without trial (out of over 350 initial detainees, none was a Protestant).[68] Moreover, due to poor intelligence,[69] very few of those interned were actually republican activists, but some went on to become republicans as a result of their experience.[citation needed] Between 1971 and 1975, 1,981 people were detained; 1,874 were Catholic/republican, while 107 were Protestant/loyalist.[70] There were widespread allegations of abuse and even torture of detainees,[71][72] and the "five techniques" used by the police and army for interrogation were ruled to be illegal following a British government inquiry.[73] Nationalists also point to the fatal shootings of 14 unarmed nationalist civil rights demonstrators by the British Army in Derry on 30 January 1972, on what became known as Bloody Sunday. The Provisional IRA (or "Provos", as they became known), which emerged out of a split in the Irish Republican Army in December 1969, soon established itself as defenders of the nationalist community.[74][75] Despite the increasingly reformist and Marxist politics of the Official IRA, it began its own armed campaign in reaction to the ongoing violence. The Provisional IRA's offensive campaign began in early 1971 when the Army Council sanctioned attacks on the British Army.[76]

In 1972, the Provisional IRA killed approximately 100 soldiers, wounded 500 more and carried out approximately 1,300 bombings,[77] mostly against commercial targets which they considered "the artificial economy".[78][79] The bombing campaign killed many civilians, notably on Bloody Friday on 21 July, when 22 bombs were set off in the centre of Belfast killing seven civilians and two soldiers. The Official IRA, which had never been fully committed to armed action, called off its campaign in May 1972.[80] Despite a temporary ceasefire in 1972 and talks with British officials, the Provisionals were determined to continue their campaign until the achievement of a united Ireland.

Merlyn Rees, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland had lifted the proscription against the UVF in April 1974. In December, one month after the Birmingham pub bombings which killed 21 people, the IRA declared a ceasefire; this would theoretically last throughout most of the following year. The ceasefire notwithstanding, sectarian killings actually escalated in 1975, along with internal feuding between rival paramilitary groups. This made 1975 one of the "bloodiest years of the conflict".[86] On 31 July 1975 at Buskhill, outside Newry, the popular Irish cabaret band "The Miami Showband" was returning home to Dublin after a gig in Banbridge when it was ambushed by gunmen from the UVF Mid-Ulster Brigade wearing British Army uniforms at a bogus military roadside checkpoint on the main A1 road. Three of the bandmembers were shot dead and two of the UVF men were killed when the bomb they had loaded onto the band's minibus went off prematurely. The following January, ten Protestant workers were gunned down in Kingsmill, south County Armagh after having been ordered off their bus by an armed Republican gang who called itself the South Armagh Republican Action Force. These killings were in retaliation to a loyalist double shooting attack against the Reavey and O'Dowd families the previous night.

The violence continued through the rest of the 1970s. The British Government reinstated the ban against the UVF in October 1975, making it once more an illegal organisation. When the Provisional IRA's December 1974 ceasefire had ended in early 1976 and it had returned to violence, it had lost the hope that it had felt in the early 1970s that it could force a rapid British withdrawal from Northern Ireland, and instead developed a strategy known as the "Long War", which involved a less intense but more sustained campaign of violence that could continue indefinitely. The Official IRA ceasefire of 1972, however, became permanent, and the "Official" movement eventually evolved into the Workers' Party, which rejected violence completely. A splinter from the "Officials", however, in 1974 – the Irish National Liberation Army — continued with a campaign of violence.

The IRA's "Long War" was boosted by large donations of arms to them from Libya in the 1980s (see Provisional IRA arms importation) due to Muammar Gaddafi's anger at Thatcher's government for assisting the Reagan government's bombing of Tripoli, which had allegedly killed one of Gaddafi's children.

The IRA continued its bombing campaign. One of its most high profile actions was the Brighton hotel bombing on 12 October 1984, when it set off a 100-pound bomb in the Grand Hotel, Brighton, where politicians including Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher were staying for the Conservative Party conference. Five people were killed, including Conservative MP Sir Anthony Berry and the wife of Government Chief Whip John Wakeham, and thirty-four others were injured, including Wakeham, Trade and Industry Secretary Norman Tebbit and Tebbit's wife, Margaret.[91]

In the mid to late 1980s loyalist paramilitaries, including the Ulster Volunteer Force, the Ulster Defence Association and Ulster Resistance, imported arms and explosives from South Africa.[92] The weapons obtained were divided between the UDA, the UVF and Ulster Resistance, and led to an escalation in the assassination of Catholics, although some of the weaponry (such as rocket-propelled grenades) were hardly used.[citation needed] These killings were in response to the 1985 Anglo-Irish Agreement which gave the Irish government a "consultative role" in the internal government of Northern Ireland.

Iamon lyme: Who says Liberals are wanting to offend Islamists? Who says Liberals are wanting to offend Christians? All I hear is a martyrdom for christianity and it's weak and cannot handle what people may say or do.. or at least, you can't. That Jesus said is your problem. The dude himself tended to be of a less fragile nature.

"I'm looking forward to an honest reply."

I've answered your questions but you are not lis-ten-ing.

That you hold no respect for Islam or don't understand how we 'liberals' ... ... Is this like Dogma and how Kevin Smith was threatened with death because he made the film by Christians? Peace loving God.. ... hang on... can't say God. Have to say G-d. This post might get erased in time!!

btw.. can you define a liberal, so I don't get confused over what is and what is not as it is differently defined over here.. Guess peace loving Christians trying to blow up Parliament and Maggie as well as various pubs, restaurants and other places, killing thousands... gives you a different perspective nationally. Having terrorists attacking your country for decades just may mean I see things differently to you and have that right.

This was said 6 months after I was born..

"From this day, we declare war against the IRA and its splinter groups. Known IRA men will be executed mercilessly and without hesitation. Less extreme measures will be taken against anyone sheltering or helping them, but if they persist in giving them aid, then more extreme methods will be adopted . . . we solemnly warn the authorities to make no more speeches of appeasement. We are heavily armed Protestants dedicated to this cause."