(V): http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8223710.stm


im guessing this where you took your info from
its a national disgrace

Snoopy: hey,, its only 2%, so they got treated like animals, 1 million crybabies

Snoopy: In any profession you get bad apples, cowboys and the like. It's not a national disgrace, just a small element that need sacking. Just like with trading standards dealing with rogue traders.

(V): mmmm maybe its not a national disgrace in your eyes but in mine it is

Pedro Martínez: Lord help us...I'd hate to think

Artful Dodger: that is the same link that GTCharlie put up....so you probably get the same "Duck shoving" type of answer

Bernice: Yeah but my font is bigger! 

Artful Dodger:  I'm sure you can find similar examples of abuse in nursing homes in the US.  They aren't the majority, like the abuses reported in the British NHS are not the majority cases there.  Any amount of that type of neglect or abuse aren't acceptable anywhere & remedies are paramount, but it doesn't represent an entire system.  As pointed out in your article, over 92% of patients in the British system rate their care as good or excellent.

Artful Dodger: It's an estimated figure by the paper. They have no actual figure of a million.

Helps sell da paper though

Artful Dodger: Your font is not as big as God's final message to the universe though.

Snoopy: It would be a national disgrace if it was symptomatic of all the nurses in the UK... but it isn't.

In any organisation you will get a few bad apples, and the NHS is no exception. But those nurses who get done for what they have done, will be struck off... same as a doctor can be. They will be banned from being a nurse in the UK, and as much it will stand up in any application they do anywhere.

"why did you leave your last job.. I was sacked for being a bad uncaring nurse"

(V): I agree. It's much bigger.

Pedro Martínez: As in some bad apples in all the NHS trusts... yes. The Nursing and Midwifery Council say complaints are about 1 in every 500 nurses/midwifes. Most complaints seem to be about drug/alcohol abuse, and as such are a police matter, who tell the NMC of any convictions. But this could be said of any health service worldwide. Or in any service serving the public

I've seen video's of policemen from various countries assaulting civilians with for no reason. Bus drivers ignoring that an old person cannot move fast, not giving them the time to get on the bus despite that persons obvious effort to catch that bus.

The solution.. fire them.. prosecute if needed.

(V):
No matter what the system (public or private), there will always be selfish, uncaring and incompetent people. Most midwives, nurses and doctors do their job to the best of their ability, but there are always those who do the job just for the money, or who don't care if patients suffer or not. Then there are those who are just neglectful and stupid. I think we could look at any system in any country, and always find cases like this.

To generalize and say that everyone is the same would be unfair, because there are people who work hard and who love their work. I am sure in most countries at least 10% (maybe even 20%) of the people had bad experiences with the healthcare system. Even in countries boasting great systems you will find problems. Most cases are the product of simple neglect or laziness, then a small percentage is the product of gross incompetence.

There should be a better way to assess the work of doctors and nurses without making them feel like they are on the line of fire. Here in North America lawsuits are very common. I am not sure if the lawsuit system helps the medical and nursing professions. It just makes doctors and nurses feel that when they do a good job everyone loves them, and when they make a mistake everyone is out to get them.

We have also reduced the healthcare system to a matter of money. Spend billions to run it, complain about those billions when it gets too expensive. Pay billions to private insurance firms. Sue doctors for millions when they make a mistake. We have reached a point where money and profit have taken precedence over well-being and compassion. Not that capitalism wasn't always like this!

Übergeek 바둑이: And at the same time our leaders wine and dine. .... and so do the boards of health companies.

As well as change in the 'sue' laws, the laws over medicines needs to be changed. I know they have to research things, but currently new medicine prices can be daylight robbery. Maybe we should all vote for the Pirate Party.

The main point of the Pirate party is copyright, and archaic ways of the law regarding form of such.

Why is it that the 'patent' system makes drugs so expensive? How much profit is acceptable regarding an item that saves lives? Why can't we be like China in respect to the main source of buying software is to download legal copies inclusive of manual and cover? It's cheaper and perhaps... the software companies will sell more.

.. It's also more ecological!!

And btw Lads and Lasses ... the one million is a made up figure, an extrapolated 'if'.

What's kind of strange with the horrible nurses is the reaction. Instead of increasing the staff they make some nurses quit the job.

Oh and registrated that Iran whose citizens are prohibited to mix up with the crowd in Mekka seeks to stress.

Anyway, as a nurse you can work round the world. Fastest way to ground the nhs is probably if simply all the nurses quit their job :)~

We have also reduced the healthcare system to a matter of money. Spend billions to run it, complain about those billions when it gets too expensive. Pay billions to private insurance firms. Sue doctors for millions when they make a mistake. We have reached a point where money and profit have taken precedence over well-being and compassion. Not that capitalism wasn't always like this!

Übergeek 바둑이: In some extreme parts I observed a increase of taxations of 600, 1000 and more % within a decade. When in health care things money is floating away, has this anything to do with capitalism? The political effect of this theft is that people with normal wages are left by themself, something like being forced to pay more for milk to get a balance with the farmer. This money is just floating away, we are slaves.

The elites can't make peace without us.

How can it be so?

Czuch: If the duty weights more but it doesn't. It should be the will to offer health care, but it's about a billion you'd be unlike to go on cruise with except to sink the ship.

Czuch:  I'd say no to that.  It's no more a right than one has the "right" to a free home and free electricity.  How about free cars too?  Can't get to work without a car.  For that matter, everyone deserves a job too.  Even lazy do nothings! 

Those that can say yes to the above don't think straight in my view.  Hard work gets all of those things.  I grew up in a family of 9 and the only thing that was ever handed to me was a mop to clean up and my brothers old clothes. 

Artful Dodger:  Whoo hoo.. you go! I hear ya.. I started working at just barely 15..

Artful Dodger: I agree with ScarletRose and you AD....it is the 'nere do nothings of the earth that expect everything for nothing...........

Bernice: That 's like sect. 8 housing in the US, some have the audacity to complain about the location of their housing

It's">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR2009082101778.html?referrer=facebook

It's not all "socialists" out there & shouldn't be dismissed as such.  But unlike America, all these countries assume Heathcare is a right, not a privilege for some.  They also do it at less cost than the US.  And don't give me that nonsense that the poor can get care in the ER.  That is not a viable option & takes up space for true emergencies. 

Artful Dodger: Its difficult to make a point with "human rights", isn't that an other world of UN-freaks and such. Where would this lead if we'd talk about a human right to have a job? Choke in bureaucracy? For too long it has been honorated to literaly "do nothing", speak rationalisation at any price, destroying jobs in favor of a shareholders value, this cynic hope to solve all ones problems at wall street. The organizers of the courrent ways *did destroy* a sane structure of the society for honorating pale theoreticians and declassify those whose hands can get dirty for work.

We need a new concept of rationalisation. 'Reason' comes from the same root, Ratio.

The "air cushions" in power have to get brought down. Can you see "air cushions"? There were days they were called alpha leaders. Pumped up with hypocrisy, ignorance and criminal energy.

must be "benefit day" no reaction...lower class benefits...

Ferris Bueller: They also do it at less cost than the US

Yes they do... because they have us to bear the brunt of their costs for them!!!


Look at Canada.... they have cheaper pills than we do, right? But who bears the cost of making those pills.... the cost of the research and the regulatory hurdles and trials and manufacturing??? Thats right, the US does

So our pharmaceuticals dont simply have to recover the actual cost to make a pill, they have to recover the total cost to make and develope a pill... but Canada will only pay them a fair profit for the cost to manufacture the pill, so the burden to pay the cost for the development of that pill goes to you know who, the American public

Now, make the US another Canada, and who are we gonna screw over to research and develope these cheap medicines for us????? Mexico maybe????

The only way the rest of the world gets away with socialism, is because the US does the brunt of their work for them, but once we are all socialists, then who will be left to burden the load????


Sorry, gotta run, later I will explain to you how thinking that health care is a "right" makes you an idiot

Artful Dodger: Hang on.... the material 'freebies' are moot. We are talking healthcare. And regardless of even if their was maximum employment, thinking that is 100% of adults is a myth. This is an economic fact of the way things are.

And if you don't think healthcare is considered a morally right thing to have. Live without it then.

Czuch: Ya kidding me.... You are not serious on that are you??

Ferris Bueller: A&E here is for those who have something wrong with them that cannot be dealt with by a GP. A&E is for emergencies. It is more cost effective to have 24/7 GP services, 24/7 medical advice and 24/7 home visit GP's.

Going to A&E for minor stuff is a waste of money and time. I heard that this is the way in America, but did not believe it, talk about jamming the bread or what!!

Czuch:

> But who bears the cost of making those pills.... the cost of the research and
> the regulatory hurdles and trials and manufacturing??? Thats right, the US does

I am sorry to disagree with this and to call such a statement ignorant national chauvinism.

I am a chemist and I have worked doing research for those pharmaceuticals that you are claiming are the product of American research superiority.

I can give some examples that will put this to rest for good. I worked doing research in drugs for treating osteoporosis. The drugs in question were Fosamax and similar drugs. Fosamax was developed by Merck, an American company based on New Jersey. Fosamax was invented by a group of chemists working in Ontario, Canada. They were all Canadian employees working for Merck, an American company. At the same time, the main chemical reaction used to make Fosamax was discovered and extensively researched by a Soviet Russian chemist called Alexader Arbuzov. The chemical reaction is called the Arbuzov Rearrangement in his honour.

The question is, who deserves credit? The American company? The Canadian chemists who developed the drug? The Russian scientists who first discovered these chemical reactions? Merck has made hundreds of millions selling this drug. The Canadian chemists got their 50K per year salary for doing this. The Soviet chemist got what? Well, he got screwed because as far as I know Merck never paid royalties to him or his family.

If you study chemistry, you will discover that scientists come from all over the world. There are great chemists in Germany, England, France, Russia, Italy, Japan, China, etc. If you open the pages of any chemistry journal, you will find that publications come from all over the world. Not only that, but pharmaceutical companies are everywhere. The US has Merck, Johnson and Johnson, Teva, etc. Germany has Basf. Switzerland has Pfizer. England has Bristol-Myers. The list goes on and on.

Yes, pharmaceutical companies invest a lot of money in reasearch and development. They also make billions at the expense of consumers. What is more important? Pharmaceutical companies making billions or millions of poor people dying around the world because medicines are too expensive? People forget how hard pharmaceutical companies have fought to protect their "patent" rights, while at the same time millions of people died in developing countries because profits took precedence over compassion.

Ferris Bueller:  Health care is not a right.   And no one here has said it's a privileged.   I have health care because I work for it.  I put myself through school.  I paid my own way.  I made the decision to go to school, get a degree, and I worked hard to afford it.  Health care is a responsibility.  

Übergeek 바둑이: Johnson and Johnson.. I've worked for them.. doing the final finishing for them on titanium alloy hip and knee joints.

The stories of certain drugs being too expensive has been a hot subject in the UK. Life saving drugs that could save so many being over priced, economic use in the quantity to make the treatment viable becomes impossible.

... But profit can come in quantity sales at a lower price.. big profit. If ya sell 100 million units at a 50p profit and only 100K units at a £5 profit... well.

(V):I don't have to live without it.  I earn it.   Myself.  It's called personal responsibility. 

Artful Dodger: So... who's to decide who lives and dies in your world of "not a right"??

Artful Dodger: But you are asking that people in your country don't?

... Thought part of the American revolution was to get rid of the class system??

(V): The purple dinosaur.

(V): Gee, I looked at all my previous posts on this topic and I can't find any posts where I asked that.  Maybe you could point it out for me.

Artful Dodger: Barney?? He loves everyone!!

Besides.. he's in hiding after the Barney toy business... there is only so much a sane man can take.

Artful Dodger: So.. ok, I thought you implied that certain people should not have healthcare as a right, I didn't think it was a matter of a certain nationality.

So, who are these people?

(V):

> So... who's to decide who lives and dies in your world of "not a right"??

In Capitalism the answer is simple: MONEY DECIDES!

Übergeek 바둑이: If that is so.. then the Hippocratic oath means nothing. Centuries upon centuries of medical research by those who strove to save life thrown away for a dollar!!

(V): Access may be a fundamental right to every human being but free care isn't.

This issue is viewed differently in different countries. In Czech Republic, for example, Article 31 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and Basic Freedoms, which is part of the Czech Constitution, says that "Everyone has the right to the protection of their health. Citizens shall have the right, on the basis of public insurance, to free medical care and to medical aids under conditions provided for by law." But I think it should be noted that this is, more or less, only a theoretical issue. In practice, the Czech health care system is not too different from the U.S. one. In spite of stating that the free medical care is a right, and a fundamental right, of every citizen of the Czech Republic, the wording of the provision allows the lawmakers to adopt laws that limit the extent of the free care. Just like in the US, everyone here has the access to health care and nobody is deprived of it, but those with insurance definitely have a better position, obviously.

Artful Dodger: *sigh* we've been over 'free' with Czuch. Yes someone pays in one way or another... VAT, Income Tax, etc, etc, etc.

TANSTAFL!!

Doctors.. nurses, etc cannot expect not to earn even if it is a vocation. Equipment.. etc, etc.

And I think the idea is everyone pays. Through VAT, Income Tax, Corporate Tax, Duties, etc, etc, etc..

Everyone pays in some form or another over here... isn't that fair?

Yet.. over here, with regards to private sector contractors, they have to make a bid, they have to show that they will do the job.

Daylight robbery is a crime here. Several big building contractor firms found out that when they rigged construction job prices.

Is this sensible?