Artful Dodger: And I'm cracked up by your total blinkered approach to anyone who is your "hero" or part of your ideology. Also by your seemingly total lack of knowing what conservative values are.. seeing as you will not define them.

Yes, some liberal orgs do have responsibility if they incite hate or violence. There have been cases of animal rights groups over here, who why they might not have pulled the trigger, they do not state such violence is bad or that it is wrong.

I thought being responsible was part of the conservative way?

US probes Obama 'death' web poll

The US Secret Service is investigating a poll posted on social networking site Facebook, asking people if they think President Obama "should be killed". The poll, posted on Saturday, was taken off the site as soon as the company was made aware of it. It was put up on the site using a third-party application that was unconnected with the social networking site itself.

US officials said they would take "the appropriate investigative steps".

The poll, described by Facebook as "offensive", asked respondents "Should Obama be killed?" and offered four possible responses: "No", "Maybe", "Yes", and "Yes if he cuts my health care".

**************************************

Now money and time have to wasted investigating some idiots who forgot that any threat against the President has to be investigated. It doesn't matter if it was a joke or not.

(V):

Some people don't know this, but it is possible to bet money that a certain political even will happen. In this "futures markets" people can bet on whether a certain event will occurr and they get paid according to whether their prediction was right or not.

https://www.intrade.com/

Initially these people wanted to allow betting on terrorist attack, assasinations and other other catastrophic events.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Analysis_Market

If the people at Darpa had had their way, today people could bet on assassinations or presidents around the world. The congressmen who came out against this aberration did the right thing. Can you imagine people betting money on whether some prominent individual would be killed?

Übergeek 바둑이: I'm just glad a certain figure has not come again.. The way things are today, he'd be lynched and every bit sold off!!

Our bookmakers here quite often take strange bets.. but betting on if people will get killed.. that would be considered very bad taste and would likely to result in a banning and possibly some action by the police.

Betting on an election result.. that's normal. Like the yearly bet if it'll snow on Christmas day.

(V): you underestimate that people living in wealth don't share the same degree of compassion. It is certain that these people Übergeek mentions don't feel any remorse about, and people like that are MANY OF YOU.

(V): betting on if people will get killed would be considered very bad taste and would likely to result in a banning and possibly some action by the police.

Even though this particular example shows limits on how far some can go, you have to consider that weathy people act without compassion, control global corporations with catastrophic output and are above laws and governments.

The rule is entirely opposite, very bad taste does not result in bannings and actions by police, the stock markets show every day that very bad taste keeps going on while it is in the awareness of the majority that all this Friedman whitewash of pure amorality is a hoax.

gogul: No I don't, not all wealthy people are without compassion. A number yes.. But I do not have and do not believe there around figures to determine the %.

"very bad taste does not result in bannings and actions by police"

Oh yes it can. At least over here.. the idea that 'famous and rich' are immune is outdated. I've seen big celeb's banned from airlines, rich going to jail.. just they have better lawyers, and promise to reform.

Doesn't happen always though.

(V): I see, the celeb's bull, that's something else you talk about. We all saw Madoff or Polański going to jail.

gogul: So.... People rich, poor, famous, infamous all go to jail. Over here, if someone made a bad taste joke in a bookmaker's then the shop manager has the right to ban that person, just as much as a pub has, a shop has.. or an airline. Over here a Celeb commentated over her scaring as a result of having breast enhancement and how no-one wanted to see it. That she supported a cancer group for women who've had breast cancer led to complaints to the company running it.

She was dropped by the company as being a 'face'.

But that's the UK.

> you underestimate that people living in wealth don't share the same degree of
> compassion

This is true to a great extent, but we cannot so easily make a broad generalization of this nature. I am not a student of philosophy, but the German philosopher Friederich Nietzsche came very close to unravelling the nature of western principles of morality. What our western society sees and good and evil.

among the many things that he wrote on the subject the main work would be "On the Genealogy of Morals".

Synopsis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Genealogy_of_Morality
Full text: http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/Nietzsche/genealogytofc.htm

In this work Nietzche argued that western principles of good and bad come down from a Greek view of good and evil. He wrote that our concept of good is born out of a contradiction.

On the one hand, we have good as seen by the "master" class: good is wealth, health, nobility, strength and power (like the ancient Greek heroes); while bad is poverty, weakness, disease and the pathetic (what the Greeks saw as the afflictions and curses of humanity).

On the other hand, we have good as seen by the "slave" class: good is charity, piety, restraint, meekness, and subservience (as represented in the values of Judeo-Christian religions); while bad is cruelty, selfishness, greed, indulgency, and aggression (those defects that would curse a human being into Hell). This "slave" morality arose in response to the "master" morality and has become central to Judeo-Christian morality.

In "Beyond Good and Evil" Nietzche further argued that the powerful put themselves beyond this concepts of good and evil by using their wealth and power in their own favor.

Synopsis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Good_and_Evil
Full Text: http://www.allphilosophers.com/nietzsche/nindex.html

It explains why our world is so full of contradictions. Consider John D. Rcokefeller, the man who became (and still is) the richest man in history. On the one hand he went to build the biggest monopoly in history and threw the police to workers that went on strike in his companies. On the other hand he gave $1 billion to charity. There is a clear contradiction. Bad to his workers, but charitable to the poor. His pursuit of wealth gave him a "master" morality, while at the same time he could not abandon those "Christian" principles of "slave" morality.

We see this with other very wealth multimillionaires. That clear contradiction of principles. We also see it in our wars. Good Christians (or Moslems, Jews, Hindus, etc.) will go to war, kill thousands, and then wash their hands of responsibility on the name of higher principles of "good". They sleep soundly knowing that they will go to Heaven because "good" is on their side.

Übergeek 바둑이: "On the other hand he gave $1 billion to charity."
can you say tax write off?

Übergeek 바둑이: Judaism calls it the two Yetzer's. One is the 'God' morality, the other that drives us to marry, have children.

It is not 'evil' as in the Greek sense, but if the second (referred in Egyptian religion as the lesser God) is not commanded by our own 'God' morality.. that's when what we call evil happens.

It is often that the lesser god (Yetzer ra) is called Satan, or the Devil.. this is just bad understanding and the ability to blame supernatural beings for our own failings. It was good in the old days (as one lady explained)... there wasn't much law. And such so called 'pagan' ideas helped control the population.. then religion got and abused it.
From a pure philosophy point... there is no such thing as good or bad.. there is what is.

As for the master and slave classes, Nietzsche's arguments are a bit flawed and does not fully explain Judaic/Christain/Muslim concepts.

But I'm not getting into that here... take about a dozen pages

(V):

> As for the master and slave classes, Nietzsche's arguments are a bit flawed
> and does not fully explain Judaic/Christain/Muslim concepts.

That is true. Nietzche wasnot able to explain everything fully, but I am not sure if that was his intent. I think that he merely tried to explain some general trends in western ethics and morality. He never saw the 20th century and how western society evolved. However, I think he makes valid points on how it is that people can do terrible things in the name of higher principles. He saw that contradiction in western society.

Swiss foodmulti Nestlé takes milk from a dispossessed farm in Zimbabwe owned by Mugabes wife dispiting international sanctions. Nestlé, allocated in Switzerland feel not bound on EU and US sanctions against Mugabe, his family and his surrounding. Nestlé justifies it's engagement with the sorrow of the struggling population. The company "supports and respects international human rights". In vue of Mugabes ongoing terror and the robbing of 4500 white farmers an elusive claim.

Things like this, that's daily news in proper newspapers and over here we are used to know that. Money counts in these circles, it's for a sensitive public PR-machines get mobilised, there is no moral with Nestlé. These companies poach in foreign countries, this is big money Swiss. There are no philosophical or theological questions arising, the behaviour and output of companies of that kind is simply catastrophic. Just not for us, we seem to feel very good as rich..

Übergeek 바둑이: The art of passing the buck is a well established tradition. Our 'modern society' is not so modern, just revamped with new names for the 'bosses'. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was the Roman Church. The Protestant Church carried on that tradition an so to a degree have our government's and even businesses.

I think Nietzsche was just trying to do something that a certain Carpenter sought 2000 years ago. To show us what we were doing and how to escape it. Many have, and done good job's explaining the 'human' condition throughout history.

He was attacking tradition, and how we were (and still do through various institutions and businesses) forcing tradition's and belief's down throats rather then encourage free thinking. "Believe us not them or burn in hell", "Better dead then red", "Buy this or be behind the Jones's", etc.. etc...

How many temples do the money changers want??

gogul: It's an animal thing.. to feel good at being rich.. to coin Riddick

It's taken over from the self satisfaction of just doing things. As the robbing of white farmers.. They did the robbing first. You would expect some problem after being a slave race almost for years. Just as in South Africa.

Mugabe won't last too much longer, and I do expect a total 'no trade' will just force Mugabe into black market selling and buying. I don't feel that due to the nature of such economics it is a good thing in terms of helping the problem within that country.

(V):

> I do expect a total 'no trade' will just force Mugabe into black market selling and buying

It is just as Saddam Hussein. Sanctions brough great suffering to the people of Iraq. It is estimated that about 1 million people died because Iraq could not buy adequate food or medicine for its people. The Oil for Food Program was corrupt and instead of helping it was just reinforcing Saddam's power. Black marketeers made a killing in Iraq, just as they do in Africa now. Sanctions are a political and economic failure. Mugabe will stay there as long as the people he rules refuse to depose him. Using force to depose him would just turn that country into another Iraq, and nobody wants that.

Übergeek 바둑이: I don't think they will try to depose him.. I hope not. The press and international attention the country is getting is more apt to end his rule. Plus the pressure as much on and by his African neighbours is more likely to get him off his throne.

(V):  I doubt it.  Despots like Mugabe manage to stay on there throwns regardless of outside pressure or how much their own people suffer.

Ferris Bueller: True to a degree. But at the moment, he's getting bugged to show he's changing. Reports though say it's not him running the country.. he's losing his marbles... I believe If so then as a figurehead... what happens when he dies? Will the army be able to keep it together.

.. and when he does die.. will the other African states intervene??

Funny watching "The O'Reilly Factor" saying "NO SPIN" and then spinning two seconds later.

I just had to see

(V):

Two days ago I saw Stephen Colbert in the Colbert Report. He trashed Washington politicians badly. He implied that politicians and the healthcare lobby are together "in the closet". He said that they should have some "pride" and "come out of the closed". It was hilarious, and he really got to the point.

He may of risked his re-election in my state, but Sen. Graham left no stone unturned.  He managed to diss Limbaugh, Beck & the "birthers" in one sitting.  It's about time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP_DMTbfbdE

Übergeek 바둑이: Over here, the main gripe by people regarding private sector spin is that of our energy suppliers. Some years back it was decided that 'competition' would keep energy prices realistic, and so it was decided that OFGEM who regulate the energy industry would give up it's teeth on regulating prices.

.... Now, the six main energy companies are making record profits and even though wholesale prices have come down by 50%, retail prices do not show that drop. In fact... the big six prices are so similar that there is no competition.

Despite countrywide condemnation of this.. no-one has the power to enforce price cuts. Even the Conservatives admit that under the current regs, the prices will have to to a tribunal type affair.

No-one in the Government, OFGEM or the energy industry wanted to defend the situation face to face with annoyed customers on a program called "Watchdog". As such, an energy expert (a well respected one) confirmed the customers suspicions.

The energy companies are price fixing.

Ferris Bueller: He's being honest about the craziness of the right fringe, and being honest about those that within the USA want the country divided rather than one people.

He was right that America is at it's greatest when it's people are united rather than divided.. as the old saying goes, a whole is always better.

(V):

I think price fixing is a lot more common than the government or the business sector is willing to admit. It is not just energy but telephone, cable and cellular services. The prices are so similar that competition is basicly dead. The government turns a blind eye because it is politically and economically convenient, and private companies have greased enough hands to know that their cartels and monopolies are safe.

In some cases the government actually interferes with competition to save companies unable to compete. Here in North America car manufacturers get huge breaks from the government. Both the Canadian and American governments have imposed big tariffs against foreign auto makers to make sure that the local makers can compete. It is why European, Japanese and Korean cars are more expensive than American models. The government actually forms part of the price fixing and protectionistic schemes. In spite of that North American car makers have failed miserably and the governments here have given them money to keep them afloat.

Chinese, Indian and French car makers can't even sell their cars here. The government prohibits sale of those cars on "safety" concerns but the truth is that a $5000 car would spell the end of North American car makers. Canada makes an electrical car called the ZENN (Zero Emmisions No Noise, http://www.zenncars.com/). This is a fully electrical car. The Canadian government went so far as to protect the oil industry and the car makers by not allowing the sale of that vehicle in Canada. It has taken years of complaints from the public for the government here to allow the car to be sold.

If true competition existed, many companies would go under. In modern captalism competition is acceptable only when it is convenient tot he big monopolies and the elite that runs the capitalist system.

(V):  What you say is all true.  But, the point that stands out to me is that he is 1st Republican, to the best of my knowledge, to speak out against this lunatic fringe.  I'm sure he will get pummeled as a "traitor" from the shrill voices on the far right.

Ferris Bueller: Well, all I can say is that conservatism like the right fringe in the USA promotes as being "patriotic" would not be accepted at all by the Conservative party over here. The MEP who slammed the NHS (as one UK guy stated) .... who's heard of him before he got paid to be on Fox news.. and electorally wise. He will not get re-elected.

Übergeek 바둑이: We've had a lot of cases of price fixing come to light over here. Another big example here was the charges for using or calling a mobile phone outside the UK. BAE being investigated over bribes (this is the 2nd time, the first the government interceded at a time of a big sale going through .. wasn't in the public interest we were told.. ie the embarrassment would cause the buyers to back out of the deal.

In some respects this where the EU does prove handy, the courts have got pro active on those who seek to rip off the public or ... by bribes force a competitor out of the market, or lower their ability to freely operate. We also have anti-monopolies laws to prevent a company cornering the market by the likes of mergers.

And yes, the real big boys don't like too much change. Yet I don't think they have much choice now, so many consumer groups out there

The UN is hosting a video contest.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=CB987F15ABB65F79

It is being sponsored by George Clooney since he became a United Nations Ambassador for Peace in January of 2008.  For those interested here is the description of the contest.

Video Contest: If you had the opportunity to speak to the world leaders, what would you say?

Well,
here is your chance. Use your voice as a global citizen and tell these
leaders in a short video what you think needs to be done to make this
world a better and safer place. Be a Citizen Ambassador to the UN.

Guidelines:
1. Create your own video, no more than 3 minute duration, focusing on the subject of the contest.
2. Add English subtitles to videos in other languages.
3. Upload the video to your YouTube account.
4. Add it as a REPLY VIDEO to the video you are watching right now.
5. Deadline for submissions: 10 October 2009

Selection process:
1. The best 5 video entries will be selected by a committee based on compelling content, originality and creativity.
2.
The finalists will be designated Citizen Ambassadors, and will be
invited to United Nations Headquarters in New York on the occasion of
the 64th UN Day.
3. They will take a special guided tour of UN
Headquarters, have their photo taken with Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon
and receive VIP seating at the UN Day Concert, to be held on Friday 23
October 2009.

So go on, speak to the world. This is your chance to be a Citizen Ambassador to the UN.

Übergeek 바둑이: Mmmm I might upset someone in saying what needs to be said..

.. stop behaving like kids... amongst other things.

Obama get Nobel peace prize and Nasa are going to crash a rocket into the moon.

.... And today the Queen leads a service to honour the soldiers who fought in the Iraqi war.

What has Obama done to deserve the Nobel Prize? Any ideas?

Pedro Martínez: Promoting international diplomacy and Nuclear disarmament . He must have been doing something right.... Both the Taliban and Fox News are slamming the award. The Taliban are calling him a murderer basically, Fox News are saying it's because the Nobel people have a thing about not liking ex President Bush.

(V): It's a spit in the face of those who have actually been fighting for peace and democracy. The Chinese dissenters, Havel, Betancourt, … Nobel must be rolling in his grave with Arafat, Gore and Obama having won the Peace Prize.

Pedro Martínez:  I totally agree with you on this one.  It makes no sense to me.  Neither did giving it to Gore make sense.  There are more deserving candidates.  Obama has yet to prove himself.  He was an unknown last year and hasn't been in office long enough to make a significant difference in the world. 

Pedro Martínez: Why? He's lowered tensions that had been set up by Bush, he's working to lower atomics, which are an expensive waste of space and only encourages others to want to have such a playground toy.

Ok, he might not haver been on the world stage much (as Art mentions)... but he's reversing bad mistakes by the previous Republican admin and the CIA, who as such have made the world an unsafer place by their apparent total lack of rational thinking.

As for Nobel.. I don't think the man who invented Nitro glycerine (sp) would moan... 205 nominations and they choose him.. must have had some reason!!

(V):  Where has he lowered tensions?

Artful Dodger: Unknown??? He's not Harold Saxon is he??

.... aka the master!!

It is ugly boring, change has not happen yet, tons of blah blah and no action, but not even words to eliminish these ugly circumstances urgently now, mr. Obama has no need to be told what action has to happen immediatly.

Is this clooney post below a joke o what?!?

(V):  He was in office 12 days when he was nominated.  The nominations closed on Feb 1.  He did nothing to even deserve a nomination let alone win.  It's a meaningless prize.

Artful Dodger: When nominated.... but the prize has just been awarded... Slight difference in time scale

That's something this site seems to have to live with...

(V):  I know the math.  He did nothing to get nominated and he's done nothing to deserve such an award.  It makes a mockery of the true meaning of the award.  It has been made meaningless.  In his first 12 days, Obama basically went to a party, went to a few meetings, skipped church twice, release federal funding to pay for abortions in foreign countries, partied some more.  Oh yeah, that deserves a nomination for sure.

(V): How on Earth is he reversing Bush's mistakes?

Artful Dodger: Loads of people got nominated.... If you know the math then you'll know it's 7 months since the nominations... and I kinda guess they have looked at the time since the nomination.

As for Obama not doing much in his first 12 days.. well that's nothing unusual. I believe Bush spent most of his time on holiday before 9/11 A great example of Republican dedication to the job. zzzzzzzz

Artful Dodger: Skipped church twice and still was nominated????? There can only be one explanation: Obama does not exist!

Pedro Martínez: Stopping thee CIA torture business is one aspect. Things that make the USA and Western world hated rather then respected.

Ya know... the Islamic extremists use such things as recruitment propaganda.

(V): It makes one wonder if you're really that dumb or if you're just sitting there and having a blast over us …

Pedro Martínez: In what way am I being dumb? Can you please explain how!!

(V): I can explain. It's the psychological effect of the comassionless somehow satisfied two third whose brain switches to "ok everythings fine-mode". The left third works and struggles hard.