(V): And there is very strong support around the world for governments to distribute wealth more evenly. That is backed by majorities in 22 of the 27 countries.

This sounds scary. And it proves to me again that the majority of people are complete idiots.

Pedro Martínez:

OMG!!!! I was totally ready to give a quick post about how stupid the majority of the people are, and then I read your and ADs posts.... LMFAO!!!!

Czuch:
KMFDM
Keine Mitgleid für die Mehrheit
No pity for the majority

Pedro Martínez:

>  it proves to me again that the majority of people are complete idiots

If that is the case, can democracy be justified?  If the majority are idiots, isn't dictatorship better then?

Artful Dodger:

In other words, since the masses are stupid, it is better to let the oligarchic elite make all the decisions while the masses are merely convinced that they have political power when in reality they don't.

I imagine then that Obama passing legislation for health care reform through Congress can be justified.  The majority of the American public opposed the legislation, but then the majority is rather stupid so Obama is justified in forcing through unpopular legislation.  Then the complaints we hear from the public are nothing more than a reflection of their ignorance and stupidity.

If this is the case, imposing an unpopular policy over the population is acceptable when the masses are ignorant and fail to understand the policy.  Subverting democracy is justified for the greater good.

Pedro Martínez: Yes it is.. but there is also the consideration on how much money does one need? A couple over here won £45 million in the Euro lottery. That's £2 million a year in interest. Footballers wanting £100K a week in wages. One got slammed for moving club over being paid only £55K a week.

I don't think those who've got 100's of millions+ would miss a 0.1% contribution to a local scheme, whether local council or to local charities.

Übergeek 바둑이: Someone said, democracy is not perfect, but it's the best system so far.

The majority are use to being played, in certain respects they play on our hard wiring.. Thinking is discouraged in certain areas. Politicians play the game and so do the media.. and of course... the adverts selling stuff.

... a tv show did a test re in-store advertising on 'special offers'. To cut a long story short.. make sure they are real 'special offers', as most of those put to the test didn't and spent more then just going for regular stock.

(V):

I was trying to get to the fact that those who right now are telling us that the majority is stupid will be the first to complain about "big" government and the government "telling us what to do".

I grew up in Guatemala under a real distatorship.  The kind that sent tanks into the streets, made people disappear and massacred 300,000 people just to keep the capitalist elite in power.  Anybody who thinks that the majority is stupid is just arrogant.  Just because the majority of the people hold a view opposite to mine it does not mean that they are stupid.  It is like saying "I am smart and the rest of the world is stupid".  It is just arrogance.

The masses might not be well informed.  They might hold backward views.  They might be easily manipulated by demagogues and the media they control.  They might choose undesirable people to lead them.  However, if the masses are stupid, then why promote democracy or freedom?  Why send 1.5 million Iraqis to their deaths?  1.4 million Afghans?  6 million Vietnamese? 3 million North Koreans?  If the masses are stupid, then it is impossible to justify those wars fought to "protect freedom and democracy".

Artful Dodger: Yes, unfortunately, I don't think a lot of people actually research who they are voting for. Many people go with a name just because they've heard of it. (All those people waving signs at intersections right around election days). Or they know their friend/mom/uncle/boss is voting for someone, so they go the same way.

Or with incumbents, people won't actually find out what their voting record is, and ask themselves if that is the way they want the person representing them to vote.

Or people get "stuck" in their party. I imagine there are a lot of moderate republicans, or moderate democrats who might actually find there is someone in the "opposite" party who would actually be a good match. (I'm not a big fan of the 2 party system)

In other words, there just aren't enough responsible voters.

Plus, let's face it, the majority isn't always "correct".. They just have the numbers.

Übergeek 바둑이: now you are a man that KNOWS what he is talking about instead of the usual CCP...thank god, it is so refreshing

Artful Dodger: If you are not a democracy, and you find as such "impossible to sustain"...

.. why does your governments go putting it on others. And as such, a republice is just a variation on democracy surely. A representative democracy instead of a direct one or a deliberative democracy.

And these days.. is there such a thing as a pure democracy?

Übergeek 바둑이: the masses ain't stupid, nowadays there is no such thing as a totally contolled media, even in 'restricted' populations. Misled at times.. yes. Fear is a powerful tool and can result in a 'don't care' situation where governments can do things that are 'invisible' ..

That time is ending.. the internet saw to that, as does the old word of mouth. Communities talk, just wish the media moguls would stop perverting events.

(V):   "The masses" could do some stupid & dangerous things long before we had this infiltration of the right-wing radicals poisoning the airwaves.  The masses in the Southern US voted consistently for segregation of blacks & whites in the 40s, 50s, & 60s.  They also voted against interacial marraige by huge majorities.  It took "activist" courts to purge the nation of such overt discrimination.  Fast forward to today & the "activist" courts may have to provide similar protection for Gays.  Its called a system of checks & balances.

Ferris Bueller: Throwback to slavery unfortunately, still the idea that white is God.. or as in today's world.. hetro and American.

Artful Dodger: So can we over here. Our laws allow a civilian to put forward proposals and law changes through their MP or a campaign, etc.

"t least when the US does it, there is freedom in view. Take East Berlin for an example."

The cold war caused oppressive dictatorial governments to be set up/supported by both the free west and the communist east. Who's freedom? If a country is used in order to maintain one's borders it's not free. People flocked to the UK after WWII and still do, even though other Euro states will take them, the UK is the preferred destination.

"Stay out of their business except where it concerns our shared interests."

ChAoS theory applies to such a view.

Artful Dodger:

>  In a Democracy, if you have a majority of "stupid people" then they can rule the minority.
>  In a Republic, all voices can be heard.  Even a minority can pass rulings over the objections
>  of the majority.  It's the reason a Republican form of government is better than a Democratic form.
>  They differ in that one aspect.

Not all democracies are republics, and not all republics are democracies.

The UK is a democracy, but not a republic.  The Soviet Union was made of republics, but they were not democracies.  I think that you are referring to James Madison's definition of a republic as a representative democracy, in contrast to a direct democracy.

Well, we can edify ourselves if we have some patience to read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic

One thing I will say, make sure you don't confuse republicanism with the Republican Party, and democracy with the Democratic Party.  The names of those parties have little to do with the actual definition of republic or democracy.

Artful Dodger:

>  the US promotes self-rule and opposes oppressive governments (when it is able)

Nothing could be further away from the historical truth.  During the 19th century the United States was generally busy building its territory and expanding militarily.  After the Spanish-American War the United States turned its attention to Latin America and it set out to impose its political and economic system on Latinamerican nations.  For most of the 20th century, both before and during the Cold War, the American government supported oppresive fascist dictatorships in Latin America in order to gain an economic advantage.  After WW II the CIA pursued a very aggressive fascist agenda in Latin America, Asia and Africa.

The United States as a promoter of democracy is a myth born out of the Regan administration.  Ronald Regan had to contend with the ever inquisitive eye of the media and its effect on the American public.  Before CNN was created the American government would literally get away with murder (for example, the murder of Salvador Allende in Chile).  As the American public became exposed to an ever increasing and faster flow of news, it became more and more difficult to carry out covert operations in Latin America.  So the Regan Administration set out to create the myth that American foreign policy was promoting democracy around the world while at the same time they were giving money and weapons to some of the most brutal dictatorships in the western hemisphere.  Americans have willfully ignored the role that the CIA played in dictatorships in Latin American over the 20th century because it is more comfortable to believe that capitalists are the good guys rather than promoters of fascism.

>  And I do think it's bad policy for any country to impose its own ideals on others unless they ask for the help.
>  At least when the US does it, there is freedom in view.

The ultimate result of American foreign policy during the Cold War was to impose the American political and economic system.  Today many Latin American countries are opting for left-wing governments that are not in line with American political and economic interests.  Several Latin American countries have chosen democratically elected governments with very strong leanings to the left.  The American brand of right wing governments was imposed, as the popular will in Latin America has showed.  Now the CIA does not know what to do, and a return to fascism seems as the only solution left to them, as the recent coup d'etat in Honduras has shown.

>  Take East Berlin for an example ...   If a country were to impose its ideals on another, one is certainly
>  preferred over the other.

Both communists and Capitalits sent millions to their deaths in order to keep their systems alive.  Capitalism also murdered its disidents, by the millions.  Capitalists can raise the finger and point to Communists, but that is merely the hypocrysy of the system we live under.

>  That said, I say leave other countries alone unless they ask for help. 
>  And to that I'd include any $$ help as well.  I'd give the world exactly what they want. 
>  Stay out of their business except where it concerns our shared interests.

I think that western governments keep being self-righteous and trying to tell others how to govern, how to run the economy, what to consume, what weapons to build, etc.  Our governments do it because it is profitable to do so.  Staying out of other countries would be excellent policy, even if the capitalist economy were to shrink by 80%.

Artful Dodger: .. A stone makes ripples in a pond, they say through six people we know everyone.

In other words.. how sure that where there appears to be no shared interest there is no shared interest or an indirect effect.

Artful Dodger: Courts can make legal precedent. I'm reasonably positive this is not the only way courts can influence law.

Artful Dodger: A legal precedent can lead to complete law changes or ways things are done in the judicial system. It may not be intentional law making, but can lead to it.

Artful Dodger:

>  Examples

The NSA and CIA have declassified many of their documents.  George Washington University has been sifting through the over 1 million declassified documents and slowly releasing salient examples of CIA and military involvement around the world.  In many of these we see gross examples of human rights violations, assasinations, torture, disappearenaces, etc.  You can find the documents here.  If you click on "documents" or do a search then you can find many examples of different kinds.  Many of the documents are "excised" meaning that many parts are blacked out because the American government wanted to protect individuals mentioned in the files (so much for accountability).

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/

Some specific examples.

Guatemalan intelligence officers (in the CIA payroll) organized themselves to kidnap, torture, and interrogate suspected communists.  The document also describes the assasination of two individuals:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB32/06-01.htm

The Guatemalan military would abduct, torture and kill civilians (among them communists, disidents, anyone opposing the regime).  This is from an NSA document produced in 1994.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB32/42-01.htm

The following is a document (in Spanish unfortunately) compiled by a death squad.  It lists people "processed" (meaning disappeared) by the squad, as well as lists of communists, communist sympathizers, and anyone suspected of opposing capitalism.  An interesting portion is page 15, which lists newspapers and the journalists that lead them.  Pages 16 to 19 list homes that were targetted and the people captured in each home.  From pages 20 to 74 there are photographs and information of people captured, tortured interrogated and/or killed by the death squad.  The death squad reported to the CIA, and it is why the document exists.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB15/dossier-color.pdf

Here is an entire section from Mexico on the killing and disappearance of both civilians and suspected militants.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB180/

I can keep looking for files all day long, but I will post a last one.  This one signed by John Negroponte, a former ambassador to Honduras, the UN and Iraq, as well as  Deputy Secretary of State, and Director of National Intelligence.  He discusses in how to best support the Honduran military.  In case anyone doubts direct involvement by the American government, it doesn't get clearer than this.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB151/part2/00000001.pdf

In fairness, it must be understood that it was not only the US that was involved, but many other countires.  The extermination of communism involved the participation of most western powers, and the governments they controlled politically and economically.  Very often we see the CIA helping governments to stop communism, and then the CIA would find itself unable to manage the situation and the rising levels of killing and violence.  By the time they were thorugh, Guatemala had 300,000 dead and 90,00 disappeared.  El Salvador had about 400,00 dead.  Honduras had about 300,000 dead.  Nicaragua, 300,000.  Etc. etc.  It went on all over Latin America.  Capitalism exterminated its millions of its dissidents, along with civilians, insurgents, moderates, radicals, etc.

(V): Its true.... again the gay marriage debate... The courts made their rulings on it, and then the legislation is made, then the people vote it all down! But if we had not voted it down, then the courts would have definite influence on the law.

Artful Dodger:

Of course, it is better to turn a blind eye to reality.  Can you prove the opposite, that I am wrong?  Or better, why would the CIA do what it did?  Perhaps I can make a better case by joining the actions of the CIA to the United Fruit Company (now called Chiquita), or INCO and their role in the rise of fascism in Central America.  I know very well that I am preaching to the deaf, but then, nobody is required to read what I post.  If Capitalism sent millions ot their death, it is justified in the name of freedom, just as Communists justified their killing in the name of the working class.

Artful Dodger: And in the past.. who made the laws? Back in da old days those who implemented the law were often the ones making it. I see people getting laws through Parliament. Judges saying old laws don't apply.

You can argue this point all you like, it will not make it true.

Artful Dodger: And no matter how you spin it you cannot deny that the USA as well as other democratic western governments have stuck their nose in and helped and aided those they like... you called it the enemy of your enemy I believe.

This has included rather nasty people in the belief.. better dead then red is the old saying isn't it? Saying "we didn't do anything" is denial of the logistical and financial aide given to people to fight and kill perceived enemies of the west.

And I'm not saying communism (to use a loose term as it was just a disguised dictatorship scheme) is innocent, but neither is the west.

"Capitalism is an economic system that vastly differs from all others. It's not really a system at all but a lack of a system."

so was communism as under the USSR system. No real system to talk about as it didn't work.

(V): You're not a former protege of Kim Philby are you?Seriously you are right, but I don't believe there was a whole of people trying to escape to the Warsaw Pact, or scale the Berlin Wall to get into East Berlin or boat people trying to get in to Cuba. In fact the vast , huge, majority were and are trying to do the opposite. Of course maybe these masses are the "stupid majority"

Artful Dodger:

I said that Capitalism also murdered millions of its dissidents.  You said that you wanted examples.  I posted them.

It is up to you if you want to believe what the CIA and other government agencies have declassified.  If the CIA was not involved in this, why keep lists and photographs of people captured, tortured and killed?  The answer is that those people who did the killing in other countries were answerable to their superiors and as such were required to report their activities.  If the American government was paying them to work, then they had to report on their progress, and that is why those documents exist.

When the CIA did these things, it was acting out of two motivating forces: ideology and fear.  During the Cold War capitalist countries feared that communism was advancing at an ever grate rate.  That fear, combined with a capitalist ideology, led the major western superpowers to do things that otherwise they would have considered undesirable.

You told me that "the CIA isn't capitalism".  The question is, does it represent its ideology?  If the CIA (and other western intelligence agencies) is not there to protect free enterprise, then why attack communism so forcefully?  Why topple democratically elected governments and set up fascist dictatorships in their place?  The answer is that the CIA is there to safeguard American political and economic interests.  What are American economic interests if not the interests of capitalism itself?

>  61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State, etc.

According tot his number, I guess the Soviet Union killed 1 of every 3 of its citizens.  Since they were a brutal, despotic, totalitarian state then it was OK for capitalism to kill all those communists. 

>  It's a far far different thing to get involved with another country to bring about political change,
>  it's another to systematically murder millions upon millions of one's own citizens.

That's exactly what communists used to say about capitalist countries.  "Capitalist countries kill many and exploit many, blah blah blah".  It smells of just an empty excuse.  Is your idea of political change is supporting fascist dictatorships?  Fascism and dictatorship in the name of democracy.  Isn't that a contradiction?

>  You've only shown how the US via the CIA (and likely the military at times) has involved itself
>  with one government faction over another. Both factions were killing their own people.

Yes, the capitalist faction and the communist faction killing each other.  The CIA just chose to ally itself with the capitalist faction.  At this point I can say: "Capitalism doesn't kill people.  People kill people."  "Communism doesn't kill people.  People kill people."  Ideology has one function.  It justifies human actions. 

>  Capitalism is an economic system that vastly differs from all others. It's not really a system
>  at all but a lack of a system.

Really?  I guess the Federal Reserve and the banking system are not part of capitalism.  Neither is the printing and control of supply of money.  Free trade agreements are not part of it.  Neither ar all the legal structures that regulate economic exchange, and the government agencies that draft and enforce that legislation.  I think that you have to make a distinction between theoretical ideas of free enterprise, and the practical nature of the economic system.  Capitalism IS a an economic system.  Any social studies textbook will tell you that.

>  In communism, people are forced to work for the State for the good of the State
>  (and in extension, the good of the people). In Capitalism, people are free from the
>  force of others. Capitalism itself doesn't force anything.

People are forced not by the state, but by poverty.  That is how capitalism operates.  Do you think all those people who work in factories in developing countries really want to earn a pittance to make cheap goods for western consumption?  Those people work in those low paying jobs because they are poor and they have no choice.  And when those people get fed up with it and decide that they want social change, what do the governments in those countries do?  They oppress them so that they will keep working for a pittance.  In the meantime who makes the profit?  Capitalist do, of course.  In Capitalism people are forced by their poverty to work for the benefit of the rich and powerful.  Do you doubt this?  How did the likes of Walmart get so rich?  I guess they don't produce any of their products in developing countries.

>  Communism OTOH, survives (when it does) at the end of a gun.

When the CIA was giving money and weapons to fascists, wasn't capitalism surviving at the end of a gun too?

>  a simplistic conclusion heavily based on your a priori judgment

I can say exactly the same thing about your conclusions.  Of course, I grew up in one of those countries with capitalist fascist dictatorships.  I was six years old when my fahter was murdered in front of me, and 14 when my uncle was kidnapped by the military and disappeared.  I guess my a priory jusdegement must be based on having see first hand the atrocities that were commited to keep capitalism alive.

In fairness, I think it is important too that we look at the rotten things that the KGB did.  After all, the main point of some of my arguments is that fear and ideology can bring out the worst in humanity.  I have been looking for declassified KGB files.

I found this interesting archive of declassified KGB files in Harvard University.  I wish they would publish translations of the Russian documents. (my Russian is a bit too rusty).
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~hpcws/index2.htm

A very interesting archive of documents declassified from Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia.
http://www.kgbdocuments.eu/

The Mitrokhin archive is a series of documents copied by hand by A, Mitrokhin, a Soviet defector who smuggled them out of Russian in 1992.
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?topic_id=1409&fuseaction=va2.browse&sort=Collection&item=The%20Mitrokhin%20Archive

Artful Dodger: Rubbish, at least not in the way we have it today.

"most of the blame can be levelled at the politics and attitudes of sovereignty."

I cannot agree, not when you've had the likes of the car industry approach Nixon to delay the introduction of seat belts and the wearing of.

Capitalism can become an ideology and as such the perceived needs to protect it can be over the top. And as such the Cold war was over the two systems. Communism or Capitalism. And then you have the big industry bosses creaming the public wallet or skipping on safety.

Artful Dodger: I'd agree with you, if it were not that business does interfere with government. As such in the western world there is no real separation of the two. As such companies try to become 'brands' (such as coke).. talking of which.. Santa these days is wearing which companies colours?

Politicians relaying on contributions for their election campaigns from businesses. Sarah Palin got through alot of 'suits' in the last Republican campaign to be in power, didn't she .. do I need to get you to do an essay on the lobbying system?

Artful Dodger: Of course businesses lobby the government. Personally I wish it were against a law.

vote green
nader would abolish lobbying. hes run both his campagns on non-lobbist contributions

Artful Dodger:   Yes.  That would have made things spicey & interesting.  I might have even considered voting for her. 

Artful Dodger: As long as business can lobby government in the way yours can, combined with election funding... they are always going to be intertwined. It ain't just a USA thing, our government closed down an investigation in bribery as it would have cost a defence company a big contract.

As for Palin.. $250K wasn't it on campaign clothing... alot of dosh for campaign clothes that came from supporters BIG and small.

As for naked... interesting.. I wonder if birthday suit debates would get more honesty out of the politicians???

(V): birthday suit debates
might have been rough on Hilary! lol

(V):   Federal funding for election campaigns has been debated here to keep business & other lobbies out of the process.  There is some matching funds from the Feds, but participation is option.  But, full Fed funding will never fly here cause both parties "eat from the same troth" of big business & special interests.

Ferris Bueller: ... what's the policy on part political broadcasts in the states?

Ferris Bueller: Nahhh allocated space on TV for political broadcasts. Time here is limited so we don't end up with endless 'important messages'

(V):   I don't think there are any such restrictions here if u have the money to pay for endless ads.  We are inundated w/ them every election cycle.

Ferris Bueller: Ouch... That is something we don't get. I think it's to do with fairness of representation.

Ferris Bueller: It is crazy, party's can quite easily say their peace and get their message across in a couple of ads a day. I guess money talks!!

In order to meet the conditions for joining the Single European Currency, all citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland must be made aware that the phrase "spending a penny" is not to be used after the 31st December 2009.
From this date, the correct terminology will be "euronating." Thank you for your attention

(V):   Unfortunately yes it does.  And it is no way to support the free flow of ideas in a demacracy or a republic.  But, if u suggest any alternative to the "free marketplace" here, u are branded a Socialist or Communists.  It's simply rediculous.

Ferris Bueller: well then explain the benefits and advantages of alternatives, don't worry about being branded, if a form of either socialism or communism is better or acceptable, I'm willing to listen... however, I am kinda biased towards the Ayn Rand type of thinking, because first hand i have seen people practice "WORK , NO WORK... SAME PAY"

Ferris Bueller: It's not communist or socialist not to want to have 24/7 political broadcast bombardment... it's called not wanting to have the same rubbish shoved down your throat 24/7!!

If anyone says to you that's not American, then suggest to them they can have your share and sit in a room 24/7 just watching 'important messages'.

Maybe with some chocolate pretzels... bit melted, but still good. If you know your "Mallrats"

Bernice: love it

Ferris Bueller: I agree with Charlie on this one... you have something that works, dont worry about the name, just tell us how it works. If it is better than what we have, we will let you know ;)

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

That sounds... socialist.