hmm so i could move in that example if it were a multi jump?

Piece on last row can't move except horizontal jump is correct.
Piece on last row can jump backwards too, but only in a multiple jump where the first capture must be horizontal.

http://brainking.com/game/ShowGame?g=509386

shouldn't I be able to jump over the white piece now? or am i reading the rules wrong. Piece on last row can't move except horizontal jump?

Don't know... Its difficult to see and test it... The empty row will have what links? I think black could (depending of the links) start the game with one piece less with just the first white move. In that assumption they will be better than actually...

Just a what-if. What if there was an extra blank row inserted in middle of the board between the 2 sides?

Finnaly I can see some mouvement about the game!
My opinion is Alfonso rules kill the game as Bell Rules do. Alfonso make the game tied infinitaly boring... Bell gave no chance to black.
My suggestion is to play with Bell rules, but just with 10 pieces, remove the 2 most advance pieces for both players.

redsales, how about if the rules changed would you play again ?

makes sense...as it stands now, i'd never play another game of it anyway!!

Same here

I agree 100% with Bishop

Yesterday I played several games following the Alfonso's rules with my chess partner and I'd say, they are much more equal and challenging then Bell's rules. I'd strongly suggest to either switch completely to them or at least really make two variants, "Bell's Alquerque" and "Alfonso's Alquerque".

i discovered the c3 move by accident, which isn't hard, since there are only a few moves possible at the start of the game. Like Maharajah and Horde, if you play correctly, you will not lose with the right color. I don't believe you need to change the game, just realize it is akin to those other two. I won't play it any more after the team tourney, I don't think.

It would seem that in order to make this a better game a new variation of it might be in order. With enough input from players of the game it might be possible. What about playing with 11 pieces instead of 12? Remove the b3 and d3 piece or something similer?

Nightstorm: this could be very unfair. Imagine a tournament where each player plays both sides. And in both games looses the dice roll... I don´t think this is the solution, nor even the two different versions of the game. But what we need is ideas, like the last posts you, Hrqls, Nuno Miguel, Bad Bishop, etc., are sending, and together we will be able to find a good solution for this game...

I still think this is one of the best games of BK...

I dont see Fencer setting up two versions of the same game. But either restricting the c2-c3 opening move or somehow adding something like a dice roll to see which color would start the game is an option. Similir to backgammon where the dice decide the color. It wouldn't prevent the c2-c3 opening but would cut down on people padding their ratings by only playing one color.

i didnt imply the rules of the current would have to change .. i dont even imply a variant with different rules would have to introduced .. i was just asking about the effect of that restriction :)

there are too many things on fencers plate already ... so lets talk about it first ;)

NM: I agree that two variants, "Bell's Alquerque" and "Alfonso's Alquerque", would be probably the best solution. The question is whether Fencer agrees too... :-)

Welcome, Stevie.
yes, it's the right word. :o)

Hrqls: I have an opinion about that. I'm against changing the rules in every game, just because some players don't like it. The creator of the game, made the rules, some other guy create others, so what i propose is one of 2 choices. return to the original rules or create 2 alquerque game types (one with Alfonso rules and the other stays like it is now).

does anyone else have an opinion about white not being allowed to start with c2-c3 ?

Obrigado Nuno :o)

I think thats the right word and spelling?

nope, stevie2 is a portuguese player, they were Eiur before

hey vnv, it can't be. i played many times with stevie and he is a nice guy. i didn't liked the remark that Bishop made about me this afternoon, but i think it wasn't racism...

Well, if it´s Stevie, this explains everything...

Stevie, are u cheating us?

Who is Stevie2? Is the same Stevie? Why do you call racist to Bad Bishop?

Hrqls: Without c2-c3 will the White presumably lose. -- To be honest, I think the game is by far not as good as it seems.

What if white isnt allowed to open with c2-c3 ?

(i just played my first game of alquerque .. had never heard of the game ... and i was surprised to find everyone in the tournament to start exactly the same :))

Stevie2: Sure. :-)

But you are obviously not from Portugal, you are stating you are from GB. Will I be accused from racism againgst the Britons (or am I off topic and will be deleted again?) if I'll point to your finished games? There is a lot of resigns after about 4 moves. I'm quite sure it's only for fun and not to manipulate the ratings, correct? Dear Stevie2, if I'd see such "fair" behavior by the Czechs, by the Americans, by the Martians, I'd mention it -- and I presume nobody (maybe besides of the subjects) would accuse me to be a racist.

1. c2-c3 c4-c2
2. c1-c3 e3-c1
3. c3-e3

Until here are all moves (besides c2-c3) forced. What now? (Only "Alfonso rules", f**k the Bell :-))

Hm, but I'm affraid that as long as there is a forced jump -- and it has to be there, without forced capture the game (all variants of checkers) hasn't any sence -- the White will have a quite big advantage after c2-c3. Let's play (rather analyze together) a postal game without the Bell rules. Actually we can do it here all together, without really to play a game.

That's why i said to change it to the original rules...

We can play (many) unrated games to try to find some solution. After my second or third game I sat down with pen and paper and went through all openings and several moves -- I didn't find any defence (against proper play) and I'd really like to find it, because the damned opening is killing the game. (On the other hand, if we'd find one path to draw or win with Black against c2-c3, would it make the game equal?)

Almost of the games have a better side, and I think to have this kind of restriction in the openings is bad for the game.
Like you said, you thought at the beggining that were better to play with black. maybe there is a solution to that opening... if not Fencer could change it to the original rules for example

Nuno Miguel: I don't know or I don't know very well the games you mention (pente, spider lines, chess variant etc.), so I can't say anything about them. If I would, I'd most probably write something similar as here.

If somebody or better let's say, if you would put two invitations to alquerqe, for White and for Black, I'd of course pick the game as White, no doubt. :-) I can only repeat, that IMHO the best way to play this game is one two games match (NOT two games with switched colors).

Did I really played with 3:5 ratio? Funny, I'll check who invited whom (besides of tournaments). Btw, as I started to play alquerqe, I thought it's better to play with Black. Then I found the "unbeatable" c2-c3 opening...

About the Alfonso rules: I'm not really sure, but I think that without the Bell rules there could be much more draws. With them a draw is nearly impossible. Not with the c2-c3 opening (White has +2 pieces, why should he draw), so maybe only with the other openings if the situation is equal and the White don't want to attack.

I think the best way for the game is to always have the black player start the game first.

No, of course not, why for God's sake should I? Btw, I wouldn't say "I'm always attacking them".

Nightstorm:
I think the alfonso rules are better to balanced the game between black and white pieces, if everyone agrees with that, we can ask Fencer to change it...

Have you got anything against the portuguese people? You´re always attacking them and you've been accused of racism a few days ago in one of this lists...

Well Bishop, i don't really know what is your problem.
I had a game invitation for players up to 1900 points, that means it was for the best players. No one is forced to accept game invitations and everybody can put their own conditions, like colour, time, etc...
I see all the time, invitations to line games, like pente, five in line, spider line, etc. only for playing white...
And for the most unbalanced games that i know in here (horde chess and marajah chess) you ONLY see invitations to play with ONE of the colours.
But if someone puts two invitations to play black and white, what will you choose? both? or just the one that's better for you?
just to put an end to this conversation i say to you, when i make personal invitations i send ALWAYS 2 (black and white) in every game variation.
By the way , i saw your games and you played 3/5 of it with white pieces...

Hi Andre, sure I wrote this after I saw your invitation yesterday. But I didn't mentioned it if I didn't saw two or three invitations (to play Black) from (I think) Nuno Miguel in the past days. Don't take it personally, I really don't mean it so. I don't complain, I'm only laughing about something what I'd call "a bait". :-) (In my humble opinion somebody who played the game several times and don't think it has even chances for both players should offer only the two games matches.) And you are of course right that nobody is forced to accept.

Sorry, if I offended you, I don't wanted to.

Hi Bad Bishop. I think that your previous message was for me. I have an open invitation of alquerque, this time playing white. Since now, played 39 games of alquerque. Just 9 of them played with white. 3 of them being both white and black, and the other 27 played with black. And I still have a good rating in this game. Now I want to try some new tactics with white.

So Didn´t get your point, if the previous message was for me. Besides that, my invitation was only for players with more than 1800, so this can give an interesesting game for both players. I´ve invited you twice for playing alquerque. One of them we played both white and black. The other you played white. So why are you complaining?

And people are free to accept, or not, my invitation...

I can see quite often open invitations to alquerque by the strong players. They offer only games, where they play White. This is what I'd call "the real sportsmanship". :-)

There are actually two sets of rules for the game. And the varient version of the rules are used here. The orinal rules (Alfonso Rules) allowed backwards jumping where as the newer rules (Bell Rules) prohibit this.

"Alfonso" Rules

Before starting, the pieces (12 black and 12 white) are placed as shown in figure 2. The game is played in turns, with one player taking white and the other black.

* A piece can move from its point to any adjacent point as long as that point is empty.

* A piece can jump over an opposing piece and remove it from the game, if that opposing piece is adjacent and the point beyond it is empty.

* Multiple capturing jumps are permitted, and indeed compulsory if possible.

* If a capture is possible it must be made, or else the piece is forfeited (also known as being huffed).

The idea of the game is to eliminate the opponent's pieces.
[edit]

"Bell" Rules

This set of rules was developed by RC Bell in his book Board and Table Games of Many Civilizations, and were presented alongside an argument that the Alfonso rules weren't detailed enough to be able to play the game.

His rules are an extension to the Alfonso rules, they are that:

* A piece cannot move backwards
* No piece can return to a point where it has been before.
* Once a piece has reached the final line it can only move while capturing opponent pieces.
* The game has been won when either:

1. The opponent has lost all of his pieces
2. None of the opponents pieces are able to move.

Bell also includes a scoring system for rating games.

mickez: we can try it but i don't think its the solution... Hmmmmm.
But its a suggestion any others, Alquerque community?
I wonder if we can convince Fencer to change a little bit the rules to make this game interesting...

HOME fellowship needs three more players to join the team tournement! Anyone?!

<Ferjo: what about first move d2->c3
who wants to try it with me?

Rod I don't want to be a "pleasure spoil" but how can you improve your skills in a game that you don't have a chance if you play a certain color?
The game its not balanced but surely between us can change slightly the rules to improve the game thats what i was meaning...
Until now my conclusion is maybe with a different set of pieces, maybe remove the 2 most advance on the board, to have an equivalent set to checkers, id est with 2 complete rows - 8 pieces. But now i'm thinking that, I don't have how to test it... :-(

I personally like Alquerque a lot. I didn't think I would, because it seemed so much like checkers, and I don't care for checkers. I'm looking forward to getting better at this game!

LOL... i figured it out at the same time you were typing BBW.. thanks

Oh, I see... you are saying if you have TWO pieces left... hmm.. okay..

If you have 2 pieces on the next to last row - lets say one on the left side, one of the right side.

Move the left side piece one space to right.

Then move the right side piece one space to the left

Then move the left side piece back to the left side

Then move the right side piece back to the right side

(repeat over and over and over) - Draw