BIG BAD WOLF: I guess you are correct. I am not sure if there is a way, except 5 minute time limits, or something like that...

Can we have a time limit foer ponds like the one for tournaments where ther is a total time for a whole game?

Now, using Bernice as an example.... lets say people start to play 2 when she is in last place because she is known to play 1 in that situation. Now maybe she can play 10 or 200 for example and sucker someone else into the pond instead of herself. Thats how playing a 1 in this game may end up helping you in another game down the road! Also it will mess up how the person in first place will play the end game as well. If they can no longer predict that everyone else will play 501 or higher, it obviously makes their job that much harder.

grenv: The bid of one just allows for someone else to bid low and improve their lot in that game. So everyone does not fall like dominos from 5th place on down....

grenv: Thats my point.... I think it depends on if you are playing for a win or for BKR. If you play for a win you may want to risk giving up a gauranteed second place for a chance at first, or a possibility to fall to third, but if you play for BKR you might just be happy with your second place, not risking anything so not to end up in third.

grenv: I think it is a good arguement.... something that is evolving every day here. I predicted an evolution in this game on this site, especially in opening bids. It is different than a live game face to face with everyone.
I dont play chess, but I think if it wre a match game with 10 games or so, I might be willing to play a few moves "poorly" on purpose to maybe mislead my opponent into making a stupid move later thinking I will not catch on.

It also depends on if you are playing for wins or for BKR, because thare are different strategies for both. (unless you can win alot and then the BKR will take care of itself) Playing like a rock on your end game will not always give you the best possible position in the end, but it will gaurantee that you do no worse then the position yopu start in. Also if you are playing for wins only, then each game may simply be a game unto itself, but if you are playing for BKR, then it is more like a poker game and you have to look at your results over the long term instead of from game to game. Is two 2nd place games better than a 3rd and a 1st????? Dont get me wrong... if I am in first place with 5 to go, I hope everyone plays like you and others, to just hope not to get worse than you are already are, and I will win more than lose, but if you were to mix it up some, I wouldnt know what to do, and you might make a big comeback and go from 3rd to 1st instead of staying safely ion 3rd.

Anywho, plent of ramblings for now

grenv: Like HRQLS said.... it is not stupid, as you contend, to sometimes lose on purpose to help you win more later.

In my poker example, I may stay in a hand with a low pair of 9s, knowing it is not the best hand, but the winner will see that I played with only 9s and might see a tendancy for me to play low hands. Now when I have a pair of aces, and my opponent has a pair of queens or kings, I might get him to play thinking that he may have me beat because I am known to play with a low hand sometimes.

Part of ponds games has evolved on this site to be about reading tendancies from opponents whom you play against regularly etc. Each game here is not an individual game unto itself. What I do in this game will have a bearing on how others may play in another game against me.

You may play the logical way everytime. This is a tendancy people know about you, and wil dictate how someone will play in an end game against you. If you were playing poker, you would be called a "rock". Rocks only play solid hands all the time. That is a good stategy to not ever lose too much money, but when people know you only play good hands they will fold everytime you play and your strategy will rarely win you very much money either. (like you said, in poker, its not about how many hands you win, rather how much money you win) You can win 10 of 11 hands for a net profit of 10$ each hand, and I can win the 11th hand for a net profit of 500$ because when I stayed in so did everyone else because they thought I will play with a poor hand, and when you played everyone folded, so you won very little money.

Its obviously not quite the same for ponds, but the idea is stil there. We play against the same people over and over, and learn tendancies that help us determine how to play. Sopme of us think it is a good long term strategy to play "inconsitant with logic" sometimes, to have a better chance in a tough situation later on.

This game isnt all about whats logical. I agree with nothingness, it is a long term strategy to make some illogical moves sometimes. Like in poker, you sometimes have to lose on purpose to make peopol wonder if you are playing logical or not and then you can get them later when they think you are bluffing again. One of these times a leader will begin to wonder if both people will go low and undercut him... he ma y then go low to counter this possiblity, and then both players bid "logical" and he is screwed. It makes the end game more fun for anyone not in the lead, if the leader thinks someone "might" act ilogically.

Pedro Martínez: Oh yeah....it wasnt Furbster anyway. Duh! LOL

furbster: I'm pretty sure Pedro would not have made that bid had he not seen that you were not online in time to make a play....

The problem with so many people using autobid in that pond was, I think, because I made the time limit 18 hours... so anyone who only comes online once a day at the same time would not be able to keep up with that pond. Maybe some didnt notice the time limit when they signed on?

Pbarb2: I wasnt complaining of cheating.... it is just a flaw in the game that sometimes we are unable to play a turn and it is possible to take advantage of that, and that is not really in the spirit of the intention of this game. For example, if we were to all play a live game in the same room, nobody would ever miss a turn and it would not ever be part of the game at all.... just one of the flaws of playing online.

I wouldnt get too upset about people talking about these games either.... some people just have very competitive natures, and for us it IS fun to have this type of banter, as long as it doesnt go so far as to ruin it for others :)

BIG BAD WOLF: There are a few things we agree apon :)~

Here is an example of why I like the dark pond variant better, and think it is actually a more accurate portrayal of how pond games were meant to be played....

http://brainking.com/game/Pond?g=757

Is it realy part of the game to be able to monitor who has been online and who hasnt been able to play a move? I dont think it is really part of a pond game. (not that I think there is anything wrong with taking advantage of all available info to make a turn) But it just isnt in the spirit of the game.

FENCER: maybe you could do something to eliminate the tag that tels us when a person has made an auto move from the previous round? hat would make it a bit more difficult for people to track who has not been online. hen at least they wouild have to look at every player in every game and would make it a bit more difficult.

Fencer: How can one "prove" cheating in any circumstance?

Maybe if you cannot do anything about it, you can give us a tool to be able to keep certain people from joining our ponds? I know we can already remove people, but it is a pain monitoring this all the time, and would be nice to just have a banned list and know trhat these people would not sneak into your ponds...

Thats one of the reasons like dark ponds (even though I am not doing very well in them right now) Because it takes away the "who am I playing against" strategy that I dont think really belongs in a pond run....

Vikings: It was pedro and two inexperienced people I think... Pedro did think there was cheating at the time, like he said.

Vikings: It already did! Ask Pedro, maybe he can find the game for us?

Pedro Martínez: I agree if you are playing for BKR, but if winning the the ultimate goal, am not so sure. plus you are only talking about when the bids would normally be expected more than all the points yopu have left, I assume?

Vikings: Think about what are you saying?
If I am in last place, say with 200 points, I am likely to fall into the pond no matter if bid 1 or if I bid 200. So what is keeping me from betting less than the 200? Maybe there will be someone who wants to get out of the game so they bid 1 to try and leave the game, I may bid 100 and stil have 10 points left for the next round, and possibly survive even one more round as well. But If I bid my whole 200, ther is no chance for another round after this one anyway. I f am now in second place, why not take a chance that last place wil bet lower than their total points? What do I really have to lose anyway?

Its easy for you to say, if you are in first place out of 5, for example, for everyone below you to give you the game by being eliminated 1 by 1 by the last place person betting all their points... but why????? I think it would be far more interesting if the firsat place person with 5 to go didnt have a gauranteed win by betting 1 more than the last place person every time.

I mean, when you say it is not logical, I think it really depends on if you are playing for your rating (then you are correct) or if you are playing to ultimatly win (then you are not correct)

As for conspiracies.... any game on this site is suseptable to a behind the scenes conspiracy. Therefore anyone who is concerned should refrain from playing any games here.


PEDRO: I think I remember the game you refer to, and that was not a conspiracy, but it is how I think more people should play their end games, and if they did, the end games would be much more difficult and far less predictable as well :)

Could we please be allowed to create a pond where fellowship members only are allowed to sign up?

It would be especially helpful for dark ponds since we cannot see who is signed up to remove unwanted players!

grenv: I am not for moronic bids, but I think it is just part of the game and something that you can use to your advantage. Why does it hurt you so much to not be able to get a bonus? It doesnt matter, its just aseasy to do well without ever even thinking about the bonus. Just dont worry about moronic players, and when you spot them ina game, just plan on being in first place when they begin to run out of points to play with. Moronic players just make the end game easier for whomever is in the lead!

grenv: All am saying is that if everyone bets over 1000 in the first round except for you, then you are in the drink. Its not impossible....

Vikings... point is that people are not playing for first place anymore, they are playing for bkr. Point in case.... was the 4tgh person on this site with 10 or more wins, and soon had 11. Since the bkrs first came out, I have not won a single game, I am still at 11 wins and my bkr has gone up!

Pedro Martínez: I think that if you are playing for ratings and you can figure out a way to get higher ratings, even if it is a different way than you approve of, it is totally appropriate way to play this game!

Whats the big deal with the bonus anyway????? Just dont go for it, there is no need to ever get a bonus to win this game and get a high rating.... let those people scalp themselves and try to put yourself in a position to be in first place when they end up with very few points left, then yu will have an easy win.

Vikings..... I know you are one of the top players, so me giving you advice is what it is, but I dont think any move in this game is ilogivcal if it keeps you in the game for another round! I understand that it is not a good long term strategy to bid so high that you will not have enough points to finish the game with a win. But it is obvious that winning isnt necessarily the best strategy for a high BKR.

I just dont think that there are any wrong bets in this game, except the one that puts you in the pond. I realize that how we bet early will have an impact on our play in later rounds. But if you dont make it through round 1, then what does it matter?

Also the amount of plaers that start a game will in part determine the strategy for that game, so a 16 person game is definatly different than a 25 person game. The bigger the starting pool, the more important it is to get an early lead, and to be in first place when the lower players begin to run out of points.

grenv: My point is that there is no given standard for the pond games... On my first ever move of the first ever game on this site, I wasnt sure if 100 would be high enough or 500 or 1000. Turned out to be 10! Now it is something like 40 or so to be safe. Had more peole been like me and bid 100 in the first round of that game, than maybe 140 would be a low first round bid right now. WQwe just dont know. It would probably be completely different game if a whole new group of newbie were to start playing right now, without any past experience to help them.

Point is, there is no wrong move in this game except he one that puts you into the pond! Every other move is as legit as any of yours are. Just because someone doesnt play the way you think they should or the way you would like them to, doesnt matter. Someday maybe 1000 wil be a poor first bet in this game! Youm just dont know how it will evolve, and it is still evolving for sure. Best thing you can do is quit complaining and try to take advantage of these "poor" moves and players :)

grenv: Wha Wha Wha..... what are you guys complaining about, really? What do you want, someone to leave you the bonus with a 400 bet everytime? Its obvious that to be a high rated player in this game, you do not have to actually be able to win very often. Thats just the nature of a multi player game, I guess.

Im gonna stick with Lindaw4 as my all time worst p[ond player though....

SMART ALX: I agree.... I think a good 75% of the games where I have fell in the pond prematurly have been due to me not being able to play my turns :(

I am sure I am not the only one like this either. I know Pedro said he had a slew of games like that when he missed a day or two. I think everyone will have ponds like this, so it isnt really fair to allow someone else to do your moves for you. Just take your lumps, and if you are good, you shouldnt have any problems getting your rating back.

BIG BAD WOLF: Its about ponds because those are the games clay want to let someone play for him....

It would be nice if Fencer or someone with authority would just come say that having someone log into your account to play a pond move for you while you are away from the computer for awhile, is against the brainking user agreement and therefore not permitted!
That would end any specualation about the intent of the wording...

Politics debate board

Pedro Martínez: Yikes!

ClayNashvilleTn: Way to go clay.... quick sign up for my 2200+ pond before you arent eligable again!

Andre Faria: wasnt explaining, just translating, and I think there was more to it as well, but I am not sure.

Let me try....

There is someone playing the same ponds with more than one nik and they dont like the cloak mode feature because it messes up their ability to instantly get moves from other players.

Maybe call it midnight showers...

Fencer... Do we need to keep our umbrellas handy when we are out at night?

ClayNashvilleTn: SWEET!!!!! I will pm you where to send my checks :)

ClayNashvilleTn: Being a poker player, I do like the added dimension of the "bluff".... but for this site, I like just calling it cheating and deal with offenders from there.

Seems it is only cheating when it is for the purpose of boosting ratings. The only way this is done is for someone to be playing several memberships themselves and all be in the same pond. But I think having more than one paid membership isalready cheating isnt it? Anyway, it all gets very complicated, and like Wally said, there may be no way to stop it.... unless Fencer adds a rule to the pond games that says it is cheating to announce your bid in a pond run, even if you do it in jest?

BIG BAD WOLF: Well maybe nothing to do with the mods then, but if it is cheating (and losing on pupose is considered cheating) then something should be done to modify the rules to reflect that it is not allowed!

Walter Montego: I think that if there is a pattern of collusion among some players with no logical explaination (like this most recent incident) then these people will eventually be found out and booted from the site and lose their bkr. In the meantime just play and have fun with it...

BIG BAD WOLF: If it is in fact determined by the globs and Fencer that stating what you are going to bid is cheating, then anyone who does this should be banned from playing and lose their bkr. Simple enough, but you must determine if it is in fact cheating (or if brainking thjinks it is cheating) and let everyone know in the rules that it is prohibited.

.... although what happens when you have 500 points left and are in last place and I bid 501 and you resign after I make my bid? The only real way is for you to bid all of your points, and not just try and be the low bidder. Then you would be at zero and everyone would see that, and you would not even have to make another play.

Walter Montego: That seems like a good "resign" alternative. Just so long as they still remain on the "fell into the pond" list, so that you could not just remove yourself from a bad game to avoid the drop in bkr :)

Look folks... get over it already. There is no foul, imo. Anyone can post anything they want to in any game. Doesnt make it true or anything. You also may read it (unless you play before them and miss it) but what you do with that info is up to you. As long as people arent telling their friends only, etc, it seems ok to me. Pedros 10 bid could have just as easily put him in the pond, right?


We have discussed the "resign" option at length. There seems to be no real solution and even if there is, it seems Fencer is not interested in implimenting it anyway.

Yeah.... its gonna be kinda hard to find 16 people to play and be online for even 5 hours, but 1 hour would be more realistic. (I think) It will be interesting to see how many people fall in encers 1 hour game because they are not online to move.

I like the hour idea.... however, like BBW said, that makes for a 16 hour game and doesnt really seem like a very good option.

My idea (and some others) was for ponds for say 3 minutes or 5 minutes or something like that so a whole game could be completed in an hour or less.

BIG BAD WOLF: What was your application process like? Or any of the other globs for that matter?

BIG BAD WOLF: LOL.... you dont have enough to do, so you took over another moderating job?

What happened to Stevie?????

ClayNashvilleTn: I dont think the object of a multi player game like ponds is about winning. It seems to be more about doing better than more people than do better than you do. But like I stated earlier, this is not a static game, it is very dynamic, so eventually what will happen is that because people do bid high trying to stay in the game, but without any real chance to win, other people will start doing the same and soon the game dynamics will change and the bids will go higher and higher and the whole game will change. I think the higher rated players will eventually be the ones who are able to adapt and change when the game play changes. Just be patient and be ready to adapt and you will be just fine.