""....it's absolutely laughable. i watch MSNBC every now again for entertainment purposes... a majority of their talking heads actually support obama's actions in libya. unbelievable. now on the other side, most talking heads at fox of course condemn obama's actions. it just shows are easy this is to spin to match one's political agenda.""

Czuch: If you are referring to Bush I then yes.. funny old world. After the war to free Kuwait the Iraqi's were encouraged to rebel with the understanding they would get support when they did. They didn't get the support.

So not exactly the same.

Übergeek 바둑이: Quite honestly ... I don't think they can stop at least some changes. It might be another Solidarity

.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_%28Polish_trade_union%29 ..... type movement. Some deaths are inevitable.. But it worked.

"If Libya had no oil, would any of this be happening? Would any of our governments care?"

Not as much quite probably. ... .. but use citizens would. And we still as humans 'aid'.

Übergeek 바둑이: What guarantee is there he will be replaced by another dictator? It might be that at least with this 'battle' the peoples revolt might actually work!! It would be worse if the NATO forces left the rebels to one like Ghaddafi? Do you remember the Iraqi uprising that was encouraged by the west and then let down in terms of logistical support? Saddam massacred the rebels.

I know Saudi Arabia is going through it's revolution and people are and will be killed, detained, etc... Unfortunately we have 'Iraq', North Korea amongst others which have drained Trillions of $ and tied up a fair proportion of troops.

I don't see no magic wand suddenly ending those commitments.

As one friend once said.. it's like peeling an onion with a strawberry at the middle.

Übergeek 바둑이: Would you rather have Gaddafi's progrom continue? Yes the rebels have said oil will flow and of course us in the west will get the oil.... but in the end result will be one less dictator and murderer in power.

The Col: It would seem so. BBC news is reporting that "..... Col Muammar Gaddafi is seeking to convince Western powers to accept a plan which would see him cede powers to his son, Saif al-Islam, for a transitional period of two to three years in return for a ceasefire. A Libyan official the pan-Arab newspaper that Saif al-Islam Gaddafi had discussed the proposal with US, British and Italian diplomats. He is said to have also wanted assurances that the Gaddafi family would not face prosecution...."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/9438022.stm

The Col: ... Aye, just like everyone pays towards the funding of the military..

.. yet how many of us actually declare war on another country outside our respective governments declarations?

Tuesday: Nope, it ain't. It would help if sex education and contraception were more widely taught in some areas of the USA.

.. But the religious nuts don't like that idea.

... in reference to the constitution where some people in the USA would deny other people in the USA the right to have a choice regarding parenthood?

GT: I was referring to them being an opinion of those who wrote the articles, not you!!

As for Gadhafi being the UK's bestis buddy I think the release might have been part of the deal to get Gadhafi to stop thinking Nuclear. That UK arms companies have been supplying him.. that as far as I've heard since this war has started has stopped or is being stopped. It seemed the justification for selling him arms was that as a country Libya was allowed to defend itself.

If you can try and watch Question time.. BBC prog.. the point on arms sales was brought up. Last weeks or the one before I think.

.. Is it me or are some of those reports.. opinions?

Just they were discussing whether the ol' presidenti was a legit target (on the news) after one of his compounds was hit. They were asking on whether Gadhafi could be killed under the UN resolution.... amongst talk that Gadhafi was thinking about emigrating to a Latin American country.

On the BBC news now.. how Benghazi'ans are thanking coalition forces for saving them from the "no mercy" attack Gadhafi was promising.

Gadhafi is easy to get rid of... n' I think after recent(ish) negotiations to persuade him stopping his nuclear program by Blair... He worried even the Arab League and gave them an opportunity to have the focus taken off their countries problems.

Just reading up on the cold war and find this....

"Fallout from the testing was not - as most people mistakenly believe - confined to Southern Utah. Its silent, unseen poison has touched the lives of thousands of people nationwide, spreading as far as the East Coast and Canada. A 1997 report released by the National Cancer Institute found that much of the nation was blanketed with fallout from the atmospheric tests performed at the Nevada Test Site from 1951 to 1962. Records of the Public Health Service and Atomic Energy Commission show that fallout from Nevada poisoned milk in New England, wheat in South Dakota, soil in Virginia and fish in the Great Lakes. In addition, contaminated milk was shipped to Nevada. Hay was shipped to California. Sheep were sheared and their wool sold out of state. One air force colonel theorized that there isn't anyone in the U.S. who isn't a downwinder.

John Gofman, who worked for the Atomic Energy Commission and has written definitive books on the effects of radiation, says the government underestimated by 20 times the rates of cancer radiation caused during the years of atomic testing. The accumulated fallout exposure from the Nevada Test Site was three times as much as that from Chernobyl, according to 1998 congressional testimony from Owen Hoffman, former chief scientist for the International Atomic Energy Agency.

Testing moved underground in 1963, with nuclear tests conducted twice a month at the Nevada Test Site until testing was banned in 1993. During those 30 years of underground testing, however, 15 percent of the 760 announced tests leaked radiation into downwind areas.

For four decades, the U.S. government covered up the human and environmental devastation of fallout from atomic testing. During the years of testing, the government continually reassured citizens that atomic testing was safe and even encouraged families to "participate in a moment of history" by watching the blasts. Some Utahns still have copies of the pamphlets issued by the government featuring pictures of tranquil cowboys and bylines assuring: "Fallout does not constitute a serious hazard to any living thing outside the test site." Officials claimed that radiation in bombs was no more harmful than sunshine....

...In terms of dollars, the nuclear arms race cost America $5.5 trillion, according to figures in "Atomic Audit." But in terms of human health and suffering, nuclear testing was catastrophic. Given the half-life of deadly fission byproducts like iodine-131, plutonium-283, strontium-90 and radioactive cesium-137, we have yet to see the end of the suffering caused by atomic testing.

I wrote my story hoping to help people understand how the nuclear age continues to shape our lives. I am not an expert, but I am a downwinder.

http://waynesimister.mysite.com/utahpast.htm

Map showing exposure levels... http://rex.nci.nih.gov/massmedia/fig1.html

Übergeek 바둑이: As has been practised over the last century and into this... Yep.

Artful Dodger: Well, look, if that's the criteria by which we are making decisions on the deployment of U.S. forces, then by that argument you would have 300,000 troops in the Congo right now - where millions have been slaughtered as a consequence of ethnic strife - which we haven't done," Obama said in an interview with The Associated Press...

"Nobody is proposing we leave precipitously. There are still going to be U.S. forces in the region that could intercede, with an international force, on an emergency basis," Obama said between stops on the first of two days scheduled on the New Hampshire campaign trail. "There's no doubt there are risks of increased bloodshed in Iraq without a continuing U.S. presence there."

The greater risk is staying in Iraq, Obama said.

"It is my assessment that those risks are even greater if we continue to occupy Iraq and serve as a magnet for not only terrorist activity but also irresponsible behaviour by Iraqi factions," he said...


*************************

I don't think even Bush meant for USA troops to stay in Iraq permanently.. That was the plan or.. part of the plan they didn't have back then when they invaded Iraq wasn't it??

Artful Dodger: Yes there is.... using 50 year old fears based on the cold war stereotyping like that used by McCarthy to cause hate and fear within the people listening/reading in the USA seems to be the current right wing approach to any debate on matters currently in the news.

Yes.. I know what a thesis is... I also know when someone is constantly using stereotypes of no particular substance and posting such (propaganda) as a means to say they are right.

eg... the claims that the "left" are all abandoning Obama.. where is actual figures supporting such claims.. is it like the Daily Mail article you posted as quoted from some blogger that only told a fraction of the truth of the articles he was quoting from?

Artful Dodger: But you said.... "And the comments just keep rolling in. I like this one best!"

So I guess you have some thought that feels calling Obama Marxist is appropriate. Yet Marxism in itself (just like Socialism) covers a great many ideologies. Just like someone could say they are Republican yet also a member of the Tea Party

... But that as much seems to a dogmatic cry based on the cold war divisions. ie propaganda.

Tuesday: Queen Victoria used it for period pains!! But I can see SR's point over it being smoked at work. Like drinking that is a no no. There are laws here regarding people who have a responsibility of care not to be indulging when in 'responsible mode'.

ScarletRose: Sorry but Übergeek 바둑이 is right. As long as there is no direct impact on the teaching at the high school then you really can't do anything. Someone drinking the night before a schoolday is as such in the same position as a pot smoker and regarding the possible effects of someone drinking heavily (still drunk next day) they pose a greater concern especially if they drive.

And Tuesday is right... pot will probably more than likely become more legal if not 'legal' .. the medical benefits of the two active chemicals (THC/CBD) are well known, just they would have such an impact on drug companies profits if more commonly used.

Artful Dodger: Isn't the NEA a union from what I read??

Artful Dodger: Then attention might return to the Republican attempt to lower liberal voters in the USA through regulations??

The Col: It seems the far right is like a company I had to deal with. Despite a heavy reliance on technology as part of obvious computer systems...

.. They'd forgotten that modern technology (from postal services upwards) allows them to communicate with their other offices around the country, including the ability to forward a copy of a document!!

.. At least.. that was the excuse

The Col: It's not as if the Japanese are amateurs at dealing with earthquakes. Their buildings are built to survive the effects, and their people are trained from an early age what to do in the event of one.....Just this one turned out to be very big.

If the Japanese government want more help I'm sure Obama (or the relevant official) will get a phone call.

rod03801: The people who need to be active have been activated.. ie the nuclear power experts. I don't think Obama (or Bush) would know their way around a reactor!!

Following a campaign by a Republican state politician, Utah is now to have its own official ‘state gun’, the Browning M1911 automatic pistol, designed by Utah-born gunmaker John Browning.

But although America’s nutters are out there, right enough, the threat of former vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin, the Alaskan moose-hunter so air-headed she must be tethered to stop her floating away, has receded out of sight.

Her hick followers still love her, but, the Lord be thanked, the White House now seems safe from her.

Americans who inhabit the real world - which means the majority - recoil from the Republicans’ excesses as much as we do from the extreme Right in Britain.

They look with gratitude upon a President who, whatever his limitations, never speaks or acts less than rationally.

But it is dismaying to see this brilliant man’s accomplishments fall so far short of the world’s hopes.

Obama secured a deeply flawed health reform package (which was passed in 2010 and promised to provide health care for more than 30million people who cannot afford insurance), and presided over the bank bail-out which averted global financial disaster. He has made some speeches marvellously articulating his nation’s hopes and fears.

But he flunks the other big ones; he shows no appetite to lead the West from the front. He refuses to respond to the need to fight and fight again to convince Americans how much they need to change to meet the epic economic challenge from Asia.

His country’s educational system is in worse shape than ours. Schools are woefully underfunded; American children’s maths skills were recently rated 25th in a ranking of 34 OECD countries.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1365992/Barack-Obama-missing-action-Afghanistan-falters-Middle-East-burns.html#ixzz1GlmygUrV

Artful Dodger: He also says...

"America’s Republicans are displaying mulish hostility to economic and social measures America badly needs, but there is no sign the Democrats have any better ideas........ For all Obama’s failings and failures, he now seems overwhelmingly likely to secure re-election, because the Republican wannabes look either feeble or mad.

One prospective candidate, former Minnesota governor Tim Pawlenty, delivered a characteristically potty barnstorming speech in Iowa last week, littered with references to God and morality: ‘We need to be a country that turns towards God, not a country that turns away from God.’"

GT: ... Not quite. Would the changes in testing of beauty products count? Not quite a boycott but an outrage at animal cruelty.

... Furs????

Mousetrap: I agree... yet at least my tastebuds get to enjoy real chocolate.

Artful Dodger: Maybe because a civil war where the people take power naturally would be great. But at the moment It's not just Obama, Nato and others have held back from initiating a no fly zone despite the UK PM trying to get one sorted.

... But the Arab League now supports the idea.

The only boycott I take part in is Cadbury's... I don't like the chocolate anyway as it uses veg fats (palm oil) instead of cocoa butter (cheaper) ... And that Kraft crapped on the workers by making a promise not to close down a certain factory in the UK when they were in the process of buying it... and now production is being moved so the factory is closing down.

I can understand them moving creme egg production, or just stopping the production of those vile 'eggs'.. but the rest of Cadbury's is a UK born and bred business.

So out of respect for my taste buds, our primate kin and annoyance at the breaking of a promise I don't buy Cadbury's... will it make any difference to them..

Übergeek 바둑이: Chips here... Fish and Fries doesn't work

Artful Dodger: No they were not, they all have to be looked into. As to 400% more.. could be said that there are more extremists in the anti Obama camp.

... that the death threats against Obama have gone up by 400% from the time of Pres Bush to about 30 per day?

.. They probably are all just stupid rants, but Obama's security has to check them out.

The anti-French boycott that bombed
By Nick Goodway, Evening Standard Last updated at 18:26pm on 11.04.03

".....From the start, the urge among jingoistic US consumers to boycott French and Germans goods because of those countries' opposition to the Iraq war has been a minefield, thanks to the complexities of the global economy.

War was unofficially declared when a New Jersey restaurateur ostentatiously poured his French wine stock down the toilet..... ...... 'We might be yellow, but we are definitely not French,' stormed the US subsidiary in a flagwaving Press release. Yet, in an interesting sidelight on the complexities of the global economy, the British parent company did not put that on its UK website. Maybe it did not want to upset European clients......

...... Even more confusing for many consumers, millions of Americans have their water delivered by French-owned groups such as Vivendi Environnement and Suez.

But there are two sides to this war. As Gallic activists urge French consumers to avoid US icons such as McDonald's and Coca-Cola, they should be aware that France's largest overseas investor is the US."

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-4314064-the-anti-french-boycott-that-bombed.do

Politics (Artful Dodger, 2009-09-27 21:54:13)

[Artful Dodger, United States, Brain Rook (forever), Male] Artful Dodger (hide)
show this user posts | show thread | link
Subject: Re:I will join the the thousands that are boycotting the boycotters
(V): You still don't get it. The way a boycott works is one group complains and the advertisers respond to the complaints. They are no responding to the show, but to the complainers. Two can play that game. Thousands more are boycotting the boycotters.

The law is on our side: Our right to boycott.
Reply (box)

"In the event that you cannot support this effort to save collective bargaining, please be advised that the undersigned will publicly and formally boycott the goods and services provided by your company."

Sounds like the people who said they would boycott France over NOT supporting the invasion of Iraq!!

... But then it was a WHOLE COUNTRY!!!!!

Tuesday: And we gave the USA the knowledge to break the sound barrier.

Thanks to some wise guys here cancelling the program and not wanting the Russians to do it first!!

Tuesday: Yep.... But us Brits then made it our own... I think we are the ones who invented 'Stadium Rock' through the likes of Led Zeppelin

Tuesday: Regarding Rock n' Roll ... you are right. As to Rock music.. that's was developed in the UK and USA.

Tuesday: Bluegrass maybe, but I'm talking about the Blues as copied from Black Americans. The music God plays (as in Eric Clapton)

Tuesday: I was watching a prog on the birth of the British Blues music era last night. Interesting fact that it took British folk to introduce the Blues to American white folk despite it being born in the USA.

Tuesday: I think because the extremism that many hold view wise on the right is dying a slow death..... and you know what they say about wounded animals!!

Artful Dodger: Not from what we experience of the likes of the BNP and other right wing marches here in the UK. Violence... insults, racism is what happens.

As for the G20.... I think you'll find a mix of views in such protests, especially as the definition of a conservative is dramatically different elsewhere in the world to the USA definition.

Michele Bachmann....

"''It is horrific to know that in the African American community, 50 percent of all African American pregnancies in the United States end in abortion, 50 percent. That is a genocide of African Americans of the United States. It should not be. There are Americans all across this country who would love to adopt African American babies, but they can't because 50 percent of all African American pregnancies today are ending in abortion.'"

''Normalization (of gayness) through desensitization. Very effective way to do this with a bunch of second graders, is take a picture of 'The Lion King' for instance, and a teacher might say, 'Do you know that the music for this movie was written by a gay man?' The message is: I'm better at what I do, because I'm gay.''

''I don't know where they're going to get all this money because we're running out of rich people in this country.''

''I find it interesting that it was back in the 1970s that the swine flu broke out under another, then under another Democrat president, Jimmy Carter. I'm not blaming this on President Obama, I just think it's an interesting coincidence.''


“The President of the United States will be taking a trip over to India that is expected to cost the taxpayers $200 million a day.”

Artful Dodger: I think you'll find they've been mocking the USA since the end of Persia and the beginning of Iran. I think they would have been especially mocking the USA over the supply of chemical weapons material to Saddam... that he used in the Iran/Iraq war.

rod03801: ... And what about those killed by those who use the abuse and other crap that has happened there as part of their recruitment drive for more to join the terrorist cause?

rod03801: A mess?? G bay was Bush's mess. Bush made it, Obama tried to clean it up. He can't due to the problem being bigger than I gather he would of known of until he was President.

... I don't think those running for President get told much details of TOP SECRET files before they get into power.

.. Do they?

rod03801: They voted for him as people had gotten tired of the somewhat 'experienced' George Bush.

... I think McCain being so old and Palin being so .. ... .. utterly unsuitable didn't do the Republican camp any good.

The bay.. such a nightmare mess that even good intent can't clean it up. Maybe it'll be renamed "The Bush" in honour of the President who used a sledge hammer to open an egg.

Mélusine: I cannot agree totally. It depends on the type of religion taught... I say that because we do have a state religion and yet that state supports sex education at schools. Parents are given the option to 'opt out' for their children regarding that.

... But there again.. It can be said that in the case of Bible belt USA.. the tax man is paying for church endorsed non-education. Maybe they should tax the churches to pay for their guidance!!