gogul: I wonder if Wonko the sane still has his house!!

gogul: Are we talking ... offshore.. Well, that's happening in the UK as well. Those who have them are being offered the chance to cough up or pay through the nose (extra costs such as fines, etc) before the UK gov gets hold of the bank account details and gets blunt..... U OWE US

gogul: Aye... the Pirate Party say pretty much the same about pharmaceutical patents. But as much can be said about most 'new' products, the pricing on them is crazy at the start and in many cases (even down the years) due to name rather then costs. It's why a generic over the counter medicine costs peanuts while a named brand can cost 50% more or higher. The standards are the same, the chemicals involved are the same.. so.. is it the fancy box we are paying for??

GTCharlie: Over here, and as much in Europe.. it's been the football players (soccer players to those in the USA) .... It's like a competition to get paid higher then someone else. I remember when the first transfer fee hit a million pounds and people thought that was huge... but as such other players have used that as a precedent to get more and more.

... and it's the football clubs that suffer, having to balance the books over ridiculous over paying. Which extends into endorsed products (fees) .. cost of team kits, etc.


But in the end.. how much money does anyone need to be happy? Or safe and secure??

Hollywood is just part of the 'cream team'.. it extends into business (fat cats) and many other fields and many political ideals.. One Conservative party top MP got caught on camera moaning about the expenses business and how now he had to fork out more as it would look bad if he claimed for gardening work.

So it should!!

Czuch: Yes... if it was insurance. Strictly speaking it is not, you are paying to get treated for medical problems.

If over here that was tried... Well, the private medical company would get spanked big time by the courts.

......... There is a certain 'oath' regarding medical treatment that doctors swear to.

And as for profit making... you moaned at oil for food (re saddam and sanctions), but allow yourself to be ripped off. You want lower taxes, but allow private companies to overcharge.... something not quite right there

And as for the lobbying.. if it is such a problem.. why do businesses go and still pay for favours? Why isn't the USA population getting it made illegal as it is in the UK??

And as such... the fault lies on both parties and those in business who like rigging things.

An example... Over a 100 construction companies over here in the UK got caught price rigging on public building projects. They had to repay big money, and many in order to get clemency from prosecution, went and put their hands in the air.

Intel got fined over the same sorta thing.

Artful Dodger: Are you sure it's just the governments fault? Your lobbying system has alot I feel to do with the current mess. I am actually astonished that you don't have a nationwide insurance system amongst the companies. We've had it here re private medical insurance.

So.. if you want a nationwide scheme, why be against schemes to introduce it? that is one of the proposals. It's no good saying "our system is a mess" (parad) and then being against an attempt to fix the problem. Many have wanted a streamline scheme, but it's been blocked.

In that lies the problem. It's a headache and someone likes it.

Czuch: Less profit making.

Czuch: ... with regards to education, it's a mixed lot over here. There are private and public schools all working, all producing good standards of education (except some within both groups).. or working towards improving themselves. The main roll of the government is setting standards, local county council controls most of the day to day function of the schools in the area. We have standards re education and the running of schools to stop bad schools sitting around doing nothing.

Some businesses take part in local education and contribute towards training of potential employees, as it is recognised that certain skills are needed and that it's best to help develop them.... Their is also apprenticeship.

We have a mixed system on education.

Same with health care, standards etc. Charities also contribute and even run some services. Specialist hospitals, cancer research, RNLI, RSPCA, etc.. we have a mixed system.

Then we get back to efficiency and standards. Cost cutting can be dangerous... Corporate manslaughter was introduced as a charge over here as direct result of lack of standards being kept by a privatised service. Hospitals having to cancel operations due to a privatised service dropping standards in surgical kit preparation needed, in order to cost cut and make more profit... potentially putting life at risk or leave a patients health impaired.

Your country has experienced health insurance firms refusing to cover pre existing ailments.

Now do you understand why I can be dubious of private companies doing certain services? ... and why as myself, others believe a people based policy aka social is best!

Ah yes.... tax cuts.. the opiate for the masses.



T here
A in't
N o
S uch
T hing
A s
F ree
L unch

Even eating takes energy.

Übergeek 바둑이: The Conservatives over here are a curious bunch. I get concerned at the moment when they say that they agree with someone who says 'X' when the government says 'Y' yet come to the crunch and criticise the government for not agreeing with statement 'X'... yet will not give a 100% backing to statement 'X'. I get concerned when they say (as with any opposition) that they want to change an system resulting in years of work and billions of money gone to waste just because there have been teething problems... and the end take 'z' more years and spend 'z' more billions in the process... Stranger still, that the problem being resolved has at some level root in Maggie's era.

They mean well... Just they play the politics for the masses game too much. But labour and the other party's can be just as bad. And yes... '5 year plans' are common here.

As to efficient government.. the recent expenses uproar and the rules that were abused were again changed in Maggie's era, and although da leader says anyone who took the mickey will lose their heads... the vote that would make it easier to prosecute MP's lost out.

I think the MP's think we are that easily bought. .... bad mistake.

Czuch: Which kind of socialism are you referring to? As in some models (hence the point of posting the different types of 'socialism' there is no central government, no-one as such can force you to do anything!! And no... there are here certain opt out's where a person can choose not to be tied to certain government schemes. And in respect of healthcare.. If the person over here chooses, they can take control of their own budget.

And isn't it part of everyday life (even in a strictly capitalist economic society) that you will have to take out contracts? You have a choice as to which, but you will have to take out a contract. Eg.. electric, water, gas. Unless you want to live on a desert Island that is.

"No I havent read the whole thing, but you can find me the part where it gives the exceptions,"

I did. And posted it.

"and it is all so grand, then why doesnt every socialist liberal in this country just move over there!"

Quite a few people do move here from America, we also have many from Europe, India, Pakistan, Africa, Asia, etc trying to get to live in this country. A certain amount legal.. and a certain amount illegal. All lorries coming from France, etc to the UK have to be checked the problem of illegal immigrants has gotten so bad. Luckily the French (seeing as that is the main route) are working with us to stop the problem.

And I suggest you look at the recent victory of the Gurkha's and Joanna Lumley over the UK gov and it's previous stance regarding the right to live in the UK of said Gurkha's.

... And as for winning... spoken like a political party.. they think winning makes them fit to run a country... it doesn't.
... And it would help if you didn't skip posts

Here's the bit you skipped...

"..............In the real world, governments may not undertake activities based on their rate of return and comparative advantage. Small government by itself is not an asset. When a small government fails to focus on and efficiently provide core functions such as protection of persons and property, a legal system that helps with the enforcement of contacts, and a stable monetary regime, there is no reason to believe that it will promote economic growth. This has been (and still is) the case in many less developed countries. Governments -- including those that are small -- can be expected to register slow or even negative rates of economic growth when these core functions are poorly performed. Unless proper adjustment is made for how well the core functions are performed, the empirical relationship between size of government and economic growth is likely to be a loose one, particularly when the analysis involves a diverse set of economies."

IE the ideal government is an efficient one. The ideal state for a country is an efficient system. As long as there is politics the probability of efficiency is not good, as everyone is arguing rather then working together. IE saying it's a bad idea when it is not, just because of politics.

Czuch: That was not the point. IF you take a contract that requires you to have a fixed minimal term as part of that contract you are obliged under law to honour that contract. And even if you do not use that service (such as internet) you still as part of the contract have to pay as agreed. If you don't the law courts can force a payment in court.

So.. "and as to your point about the private sector taking my money IF I HAVE A CONTRACT WITH THEM, is absurd,"

... is false.

And that part of what you posted from that link, was just a part and as such a distortion of the whole link, and therefore again... FALSE and INACCURATE.

Ok? Or we going to go around in circles??

Argument

One of the main features of the Great American Debate is the perversion of basic political terms. The far right, for instance, has succeeded in promoting the myth that "liberalism equals socialism equals big government." In reality, there are a great many distinct and opposing ideologies on the left. These include:

Liberalism
Progressivism
Socialism
Social Democracy
Anarcho-socialism
Anarcho-syndicalism
Mutualist anarchism
Social anarchism
Communism
Marxism
Stalinism

This list may confuse some readers who have inadvertently accepted the far right's revisionism; after all, isn't the term "anarcho-socialism" an oxymoron? If this is your reaction, then it is an excellent example of how successfully the far right has redefined the left. This essay will clarify these terms using definitions drawn up by the adherents themselves. Knowing these distinctions is vital, because most people only embarrass themselves by attacking an ideology, only to discover they can't even define it.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-socialism.htm

One thing from looking... is capitalism as such a form of government? Isn't it just an economic system.

Czuch: No they don't.. if you read the link and what I posted from the link it's about efficiency. In some cases, governments are better, in some cases not.

And yes, if you have a contract for .. say a year or two, yet decide to not use that service you are still obliged to honour that contract AND CAN BE TAKEN TO COURT FOR BREACH OF CONTRACT.

Czuch: It's a general look at government of all sorts Czuch, not at any specific sort, but at government in general.

And at the moment, yes private sector can forcefully take your money if you have a contract with them. In certain cases.. take you to court.

But if you want to live without anyone taking your money, I suggest an unpopulated island somewhere.

Czuch: You've not read it all then. Look deeper and you'll find more of a breakdown and talk about the type of government spending.

"In theory the relationship between government expenditures and economic growth is ambiguous. Long ago, Thomas Hobbes (1651) described life without government as "nasty, brutish, and short" and argued that the law and order provided by government was a necessary component of civilized life.4 Taking the Hobbesian view, certain functions of government such as the protection of individuals and their property and the operation of a court system to resolve disputes should enhance economic growth.5 Viewed from another angle, secure property rights, enforcement of contracts and a stable monetary regime provide the foundation for the smooth operation of a market economy.

Governments can enhance growth through efficient provision of this infrastructure. In addition, there are a few goods -- economists call them "public goods" -- that markets may find troublesome to provide because their nature makes it difficult (or costly) to establish a close link between payment for and receipt of such goods. Roads and national defense fall into this category. Government provision of such goods might also promote economic growth. "

"..............In the real world, governments may not undertake activities based on their rate of return and comparative advantage. Small government by itself is not an asset. When a small government fails to focus on and efficiently provide core functions such as protection of persons and property, a legal system that helps with the enforcement of contacts, and a stable monetary regime, there is no reason to believe that it will promote economic growth. This has been (and still is) the case in many less developed countries. Governments -- including those that are small -- can be expected to register slow or even negative rates of economic growth when these core functions are poorly performed. Unless proper adjustment is made for how well the core functions are performed, the empirical relationship between size of government and economic growth is likely to be a loose one, particularly when the analysis involves a diverse set of economies."


I told ya to read it Czuch.

Czuch: http://www.house.gov/jec/growth/function/function.htm

Just read, I've had a glance. It explains more in depth what I'm trying to say

Enjoy.

Czuch: I can't agree with you on that. There was an attempt to sort out things in the soviet union and as such the 'system' would have entailed less government, but the leaders didn't like this due to less need for them. It all depends on the leadership on how much government there is. As socialism is a varied concept and used in different ways, as is capitalist ideas..

Czuch: Untrue.. you can have a capitalist country and a big government. And as such ..too much unneeded red tape and 'politics' rather then just getting on and doing the job.

gogul: Not from what I remember while working at one of their subsidiaries. But that was a classified project for a commonwealth countries army. The standards were very high as the consequences of it breaking down or not doing it's job were severely dangerous in terms of manpower safety.

Bernice: This is the kind I was referring to..

http://johncottam.com/Picture%20413a.jpg

Übergeek 바둑이: Ok... with plastics it's not perfect... but it's a whole lot better then ten years ago.. even 5!!

The amount of stuff that is now recyclable plastic wise by the markings is about 90% of what we get through our household.

Funny technology.. just saw a program last night about how lucky WWII ended in 1945. The German boffins had cracked 'stealth' technology with speed that would have broken the British radar system and would have given time for the development of the Nazi A-Bomb and a jet fighter style wise akin in shape to the American Stelth bomber. They could have nuked the USA (or any country within range of the bomber) and no-one had the technology to stop them.

The guys who build the radar models for profile testing at the Stealth plant were so happy to at last to show of their skill and dedication in the reconstruction of the German Stealth fighter/bomber, as normally it's all .. hush, hush.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009/06/the-aircraft-that-could-have-m.html
A link to a page on the German 2-29

gogul: Lady?? Only in respects of the divine... And yes I've heard the many coloured land as such.. but in that there is no grave.

The only problem here is the old blocks of flats that were *cough* 'inspired' housing. But they are slowly disappearing.. they are getting demolished being the bad idea they are, and the remains recycled into usable material for foundations.

Übergeek 바둑이: Most plastic these days is recyclable. They make plastic carrier bags that breakdown in 18 months, food containers, polystyrene packaging.. all recyclable.

Our blue bin is full every collection time. Tins, cardboard, plastic.. as for compost.. I ain't giving it away.. a home compost heap is what most UK people prefer. Good for next years fruit and veg crops.

Übergeek 바둑이: I only chuck stuff away that no longer has function, I only update as necessary. The PC is by nature of some computer boffins research expected to double in capability about the two year mark... but most can be updated, (even better if you have a good 2nd hand computer store nearby with loads of bits from deconstructions) so they can last a long time.

It all boils down to whether you take care of your gadgets or not. Yes, as a matter of fact some gadgets will no longer have function, as in eg.. not the capacity to run new programs due to speed specifications. But there will always be bits that can be salvaged and reused or sold on.

Bricks and mortar are still preferred here... traditional. The only new scheme is to use breeze blocks as the inner wall (or concrete in flats) to save time and give better strength. Yet.... still there is daft schemes advertising "house guaranteed for 10 years".

Here in the UK now we have street level recycling due to a two bin and glass collection system as part of the bin run. Compost heaps are an old favourite as well The gutter water barrel is more and more used.

But the country is still a work in progress!!

Übergeek 바둑이: Just reminds me of something I learnt re new televisions....

6 years is the expected lifetime till major parts break and it becomes to costly to fix. If your TV lasts longer.. think yourself lucky.
I see windows built with plastic parts that are designed to have a short lifetime.. the metal version lasts longer but some just use the plastic.

In the end companies are in the business of selling items. So nothing today as such is built to last like back in the days of the industrial revolution era.

gogul: Did you hear about the sofas from China? Some kinda little bag that was used to stop them developing mould etc while in transit was causing allergic reactions in people in the UK who sat on them.

China has come some way since it's pure 'communist' regime. It's got a way to go yet, but as with much of the wars (internal and external) the us and them needs dropping.

The old adage "his name is legion" comes to mind... which also relates to how the war mongers and the big war machine stay in business.

gogul: Look at why WWI started. Over an Arch Duke!! Oh they were just waiting for a reason.. bottled up anger and the like. And suppose some one is having a bad day and then goes to a meeting over foreign policy.. are our leaders void of emotions?

Para'd ..... Hey guys. Arch Duke Fernie has been killed.. he was my brother!!
Why did America join WWI.. a ship.
Why did Stalin kill so many people.. he was insecure.
McCarthy'ism?
The Witch Hunts?
.... Do you get my drift now?

Artful Dodger: The fear of not having enough, or what you have being taken away causes many wars. The fear of being wrong can cause wars. As one old gezzer said, not often we fight for the right reasons. Religion, ethics, morality, creed, land, resources, life, freedom, fear, love, greed, etc, etc....

Within them all lurks the ability to become a war. It's all a matter of perception and as often the case.. how good a day someone is having.

gogul: Gone off that one.. Command & Conquer now Fun seeing the likes of Tim Curry and the others narrating the action.

As to nonsense? What part of my posts don't you agree with? It'd be easier if you said then a generalised personification of your disagreement.

gogul: There is always protest as such... Gandhi style. A stand has more power than a war!!

Übergeek 바둑이: You forget that we in Europe can distinguish between being a German, being a 'nazi', and being a Nazi.

We had our war trials, Israel has helped hunt down the remainder. We know why Germany became as it was under the Nazi's. We know the causes and as such we cannot blame Germany becoming as it did, or the German people.

It was those who sought the repayment of war damages from WWI that had more to do with the rise of the Nazi party. Especially after the fact that the decision to make Germany repay was questioned.

Why do you think the allies helped in the rebuilding of the former axis powers... to stop the breeding ground.

GTCharlie: Chimps behave like they do as they as being animals they have no choice in the wild. The ol' fight or flee rules them. But we branched down a different evolutionary ladder. There is nothing wrong with being competitive, but we can choose how if we use the ol' grey matter... even though we live (to use a phrase) in the concrete jungle.

We've let the 'kings' in the past tell us who we should fight, by whatever name they choose to crown themselves by. But the old definition of Lord still is remembered, and when that rules... they do not.

Übergeek 바둑이: Capitalism ... I feel that is a myth of sorts. Instead of Kings, Lords and dukes, we have CEO's, chairmans and partners. The names have changed. But have we dropped the kingdom, etc.

As back then before business became the new realm, power and money are still the coin that many base their success by.

Territory!!

I've just been listening to an interview with the few left alive who fought in WWI.

As one said, to him the war was for nothing, the lessons had not been learnt (re WWII, etc) and why should it be the young that die. Why not if the leaders of our countries want a war, let them pick up a rifle and fight it out.

How many wars do you think there would be if that was the case. Long gone are the days when the 'King' fought in a war.

I find it especially pertinent when the UK government is um'ing over needed resources for our brave soldiers who fight at their request.

gogul: Good lock in?

gogul: Quite often that was all from visits by my parents, just bubbles in the beer. As one instance where they couldn't drink in a pub due to a meeting, but the Landlord just said for them to go to the pub across the road, tell the landlord there he'd sent them... and they'd get a nice drink for their trouble.

... Why??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjOSLCR2hE

gogul: I think they influenced the British royals to invade.

Interesting though.. if the NI troubles were a civil war and that it's normal for foreign influence to be beholded in such wars and those who bombed the UK mainland were not terrorists.

.... what is the definition of a terrorist and as such the whole idea of 'enemy combatants' and holding them in G' Bay is rather moot.

Any way.. I gotta confront a pet shop owner about my Norwegian Blue parrot tomorrow

Übergeek 바둑이: Officially... the UK army was neutral in NI, but certain people sided with the Loyalists. We were supposed to be in NI keeping the peace, stopping Catholics from killing Protestants. Religion was used as a dividing line. The main deaths were civilian and the peace keepers. Not the IRA or Loyalist militia.

But you are right, in the end the only people in such wars who profit are the weapons manufacturers.

rod03801: Agreed, civil wars can have alot of foreign intervention. But through us British eyes it was a war of terrorist activities. There as I said, was no set line of battle, most of the targets were civilian in nature (at least re the IRA). No uniform was used by the Loyalists or the IRA.

It does not fit a civil war model.

And yes, the British did invade Ireland a few hundred years back. The creation of Northern Ireland was to create a home place for the protestants who emigrated to Ireland during the time when us British ruled and used Ireland as a crop land, as most natural born Irish people were catholic. Early in this century, Ireland (as in the main part) was returned to the Irish. It is a separate country. We need a passport to go there.

It is best to study the whole history of British involvement, then perhaps you'd understand where I'm coming from.

Czuch: Yeah well.. too many sides involved for a civil war. And as the British were involved the civil war idea goes out the window. In the early days of splitting Ireland I could agree, but it had just transformed into an ugly business. The British helping the Loyalists and Americans helping the IRA.

Strange days!!

Czuch: And? I see the notes are truncated and leave out alot of history. That UK civilians were targeted does speak of terrorism does it not? Sudden bombs going off killing loads of people who really had no fight and were just as sick of the war.

Btw.. Not all IRA or Loyalist groups stopped fighting. Some extreme elements as in any side just can't stop hating.

gogul: The book "Job" by Robert Heinlein and "Good Omens" look much at things to do with heaven and hell. Especially the matter of an Angel and Demon saying... "Do we have to have this war?" Also noted that a certain horseman now runs the most succesful diet food business.. food that is totally void of nutrition.. it's to die for

Tuesday: You did miss the point. The world "hell" is a made up word of 4, possibly more concepts. When people say "the devil made me do this" it is a denial of responsibility and as such an escape for people who don't want to change, or.. a ways to escape the consequences of their own actions in the eyes of others who like blaming 'the devil' for their own failings.

Czuch: It was not a civil war. I don't know where you get that from, but that is not true. Mainland UK was just as likely to be bombed as NI was. If you look back in the history books you'll see an attempt was made to kill Maggie Thatcher through a bomb at a hotel. Car bombs going off, the only hope was that it was one of the main IRA groups that gave coded warnings, so the damage was only property. Assassinations of high ranking officials took place also. There was no line of battle, the UK and Ireland were the battlefield and anyone could be a casualty.

I'm not saying armies have no purpose, but using them for the wrong purpose serves no good.

Tuesday: Which hell? there are 4. Gehenna is no more. That pit died out when it was no longer used as a garbage pit and a place to through the bodies of those killed as criminals. But the metaphorical aspect still has use. then there is sheol, hades and separation. And btw.. by 'devil' I presume you mean yetzer ra (the desire to satisfy personal needs) such is it that if in place and yetzer tov is followed, that inner voice of God rather then the 'devil' within is nullified. Make no mistake though, yetzer ra is a part of us that we use from day to day. It's that part of us that marries, has children, runs businesses and many other normal things. Yet if it is out of control... ...

gogul: It's strange with the popes when they contradict the previous views of their predecessors.

And not all top church leaders have lost humour. I guess many feel hitting their heads against brick walls when dealing with certain situations. But afternoon tea is still remembered here.