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21. July 2011, 18:46:59 Subject: Re: How Obama rewards his most prolific fundraisers with crony appointments  Artful Dodger: > hahaha, you are so predictable. And you can't find the honesty to criticize Obama. When Obama first came up with the "change" thing I knew it was wishful thinking because the bureacratic system of the US makes it impossible to change anything. A long time ago I posted that while Obama's desire to reform healthcare was well intentioned, the approach was completely wrong. In fairness to Obama, Republicans have done everyhting in their power to make sure that he fails. Republicans have sunk as low as they could to ruin his presidency, and they have suceeded. Obama's failure is not in not delivering his promises, but in failing to stop Republicans from working for the benefit of the rich at the expense of the middle class. In reality, the problem is not the Obama administration which inherited a real mess from the Bush administration. The real problem is that Americans insist on electing the same nicompoops into office. Any American who thinks that Sarah Palin or some similar right winger will change things is in for a big disappointment. Sarah Palin (like Obama) might pretend to be against elitism and the old establishment . Yet when she rises to the top, the first thing she will do is integrate herself into the system and become the elite and the old establishment herself. It is what has happened to every American president pretending to change or improve things. In the end, both political parties are the same and when the time to really prove that they were different arose, they were quite happy to join forces for the benefit of the rich and powerful. i am talking of the bailouts for banks and car makers, which were a Bush initiative and were supported by both parties. In the end, the United States reduces itself to a two-party pseudodemocracy. People are free to vote, but power ends up in the hands of the same elitist groups. Those who want to rise to the elite merely have to convince the public that they want to change or improve things. Once at the top, they merely become a part of the elite. Obama is guilty of this, and any Republican (Tea Partier or not) will be exactly the same. As long as the public has enough money for Walmart and MacDonalds nothing will change and people will continue to vote blindly for the same nicompoops. It is like Allen West. It did not even bothered you that he tortured a man and was force to leave the military dishonorably. You put the man forth as somebody who really did good defending himself from Wasserman Schultz, without even wondering what kind of man he really is. It is that lack of scrutiny that allows the worst kind of people to rise to the top. When Obama was elected I knew that he would fail. I just underestimated how badly he would fail, and I also underestimated how low the Republicans would go to ruin his presidency. 21. July 2011, 18:48:43 Subject: Re: How Obama rewards his most prolific fundraisers with crony appointments  Übergeek 바둑이: you are deluded. 21. July 2011, 18:53:14 Subject: Re: How Obama rewards his most prolific fundraisers with crony appointments Artful Dodger: > you are deluded. I am deluded. Then you must be a hypocrite for not admitting that Republicans do exaclty the same. I am sure there is no cronyism and nepotism among Republicans. They are all squeaky clean. 21. July 2011, 22:16:12 Subject: Re: How Obama rewards his most prolific fundraisers with crony appointments Übergeek 바둑이: In a world without absolutes, you are absolutely correct. There is no difference between Obamas presidency and Bushes. It's all the same. No difference at all. 21. July 2011, 22:42:19 Subject: Re: How Obama rewards his most prolific fundraisers with crony appointments Iamon lyme: > In a world without absolutes, you are absolutely correct. There is no difference between Obamas presidency and Bushes. It's all the same. No difference at all. That is not what I said. I pointed to the fact that the political system has become stuck. Presidents can try to change things, but the entire Congress/Senate system has made it impossible to do so. Obama might have come in with great expectations, only to be stuck in the same old game of bipartisan politics, special interests, lobbying, corporate power, etc. Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans can be expected to change anything because they both benefit from things as they are. Both represent corporate wealth and power. The working class counts only when it is election time and it is necessary to make promises to win votes. The rest of the time it is all about benefits for the rich and powerful and bailing the rich when their greed gets the better of them. Both parties are stuck in supply side economics (Reaganomics, Trickle-down economics or whatever one choses to call it). Well, in a few years China will be the world's largest economy. China will slowly erode American power while both parties squabble over tax breaks for the rich. China continues to rise while both parties paralize the government over tax breaks for the rich. 22. July 2011, 21:41:08 Subject: Re: How Obama rewards his most prolific fundraisers with crony appointments Übergeek 바둑이: No, it's not what you said, but even in your response it does seem to be what you are implying. The problem I have with liberalism is that it is anything but liberating. I used to be bothered by how the lefts story will change to benefit themselves in the short run, but now I'm more bothered by what that tactic actually implies.. it means they are more focused on party loyalty than on what it actually takes to insure freedom, security, and prosperity. Those are not givens, and just because most of us have grown up and benefited from those things doesn't mean they are universal principles or laws that just naturally occur. It took time and effort to get these things, but they can just easily be lost or thrown away. It's like the song that says, "You don't know what you got till it's gone." (V) says hey, it takes time for economic recovery to happen. Well, yeah, especially when governmental intervention actually causes economic recovery to stall out or even reverse itself. 22. July 2011, 22:31:48 Subject: Re: Well, yeah, especially when governmental intervention actually causes economic recovery to stall out or even reverse itself. Iamon lyme: You mean it can. Just as private industry can cause a recession if there is no government to stop the greedy so and so's abusing the trust the public is told is implicit by the nature of the institution. Regarding the view of economists.. Some say that when the economy is booming, governments should be scrimping... when the economy is busting the government should be spending to support the economic structure of the country. Why.. because in the end if a government spends to create jobs the private industry cannot, it will get back a fair proportion in taxes, whilst all those jobbed people and businesses will take their cut. "it actually takes to insure freedom, security, and prosperity." These are relative concepts.. meaningless except in general terms, to general to mean anything unless a person describes explicitly their view on what such means. Eg .. prosperity or part of this year is my tomato plants. 6 varieties... basil and salad growing as well from my freedom to choose to grow them. Security is keeping Slugs and snails away... The mint growing wild distracts them acting as a plant shield...N' smells and tastes great  23. July 2011, 00:41:49 Subject: Re: Well, yeah, especially when governmental intervention actually causes economic recovery to stall out or even reverse itself. (V): Not so meaningless to someone who hasn't always enjoyed living in relative freedom, security, and prosperity. If these are simply abstract concepts for you, then you don't understand their importance. Private enterprise exists to provide goods and services to people who are willing (not coerced) to purchase, with money they have made working for some other enterprise. Are these the 'greedy' people you are talking to? Government exists on money they take from people who actually produce and provide the goods and services other people are willing to (not coerced into) paying for. When government becomes so powerful it can take more money than it needs to administer its duty to the people who support it, to the point where hard working people have difficulty supporting themselves because of that drain, then who exactly are you saying is being greedy for the money they didn't earn? 23. July 2011, 00:52:20 Subject: Re: Well, yeah, especially when governmental intervention actually causes economic recovery to stall out or even reverse itself. Iamon lyme: Our government could take in a lot more in taxes than they will get from overburdoning businesses by simply allowing, and yes maybe even encouraging, private enterprise to grow and expand. When more businesses are establised and currently running businesses are allowed to grow the net result is more taxable income is created. Government creating jobs compared to what a private ecomony is able to do when left alone is joke. I don't know any economist whos income isn't dependant on political concerns and is free to say exactly how this all works who doesn't understand this.. but then, I don't know any economists whos income isn't dependant on bla bla bla bla bla. 23. July 2011, 01:51:21 Subject: Re: If these are simply abstract concepts for you, then you don't understand their importance. Iamon lyme: I see Christians sending $ in for a place in heaven. This, is called security by some who believe in a 'gothic' heaven and hell. "Not so meaningless" That's twisting, one man's freedom, security and idea of prosperity is relative. You guys in America feel you need to own a gun.. I can understand that, but that can turn into insecurity and a cage where a person feels they need a small arsenal to protect them from "big bad wolf" government. "people who are willing (not coerced) to purchase." Oh please.. Businesses are quite adept at manipulating concious and unconscious thought processes.. Both the God and the Little DeViL within. They did want to use subliminals at one time.. banned. "Are these the 'greedy' people you are talking to" Bankers, Health companies, Purity makers and those exploiting Christians... Including the 'righteous' conservative preachers who always seem to have alot of bling!! The car manufacturers who asked a "willing" Nixon to delay the law on compulsory seatbelts so they could make a few more bucks at the expense of people dying in American made cars unnecessarily. "Government exists on money they take from people.." Yes. Somethings private enterprise just can't be trusted to run things. "When government becomes so powerful it can take more money than it needs to administer its duty to the people who support it where hard working people have difficulty supporting themselves because of that drain." Well you guys let the rich get richer and you hard workers pay for their tax cuts. It ain't Joe the plumber who reaps the benefit from tax cuts for the rich.. maybe a few illegal immigrant workers below the radar.. more likely. .. And yes we get greedy people in government. They are only human. It's funny that we think 'officials' have to be saints but our CEO's can be gangsters.. eg Rupert Murdoch. 24. July 2011, 19:35:38 Subject: Re: If these are simply abstract concepts for you, then you don't understand their importance. (V): Manipulating conscious and unconscious thought? You mean, like how you try telling me the workers and givers are greedy for wanting to impose limits on how much the takers and spenders can get? I know the difference between compulsory giving and giving of my own free will. If you fear being manipulated by conscious/unconscious attempts to persuade you, the remedy is easy.. decide for yourself, based on your own reasoning, if what you are being told is true or not. No one can manipulate your thoughts unless you allow it. 24. July 2011, 20:38:58 Subject: Re: are greedy for wanting to impose limits on how much the takers and spenders can get? Modified by Mort (24. July 2011, 22:30:40) Iamon lyme: Limits based on what? Is a super computer needed to calculate and work out who's money goes where and where it can't? "No one can manipulate your thoughts unless you allow it." Are you sure about that, I see magicians doing it all the time to get you believe it's 'magic'. And quite frankly alot of people don't even get taught that they think. Eg.. I hear alot of "real conservative" being said amongst other key words (eg Liberal, socialist) that seem to be embedded in certain board members here language. They mean.... nothing. Undefined concepts that rely on long time propaganda to cause reactions learned from others. ..sometimes these reactions can have been planted at a young age and through punishment and other means made unquestionable. Certain bAd memories insulated for the protection of the mind can cause unconscious memories. Any good psychologist will tell you this. Imho anyone who says otherwise needs to rethink or see one.  23. July 2011, 03:22:13 Subject: Re: Well, yeah, especially when governmental intervention actually causes economic recovery to stall out or even reverse itself. Iamon lyme: When government becomes so powerful it can take more money than it needs to administer its duty to the people who support it, to the point where hard working people have difficulty supporting themselves because of that drain, then who exactly are you saying is being greedy for the money they didn't earn?  21. July 2011, 19:05:34 Subject: Re: you are deluded. Artful Dodger: Even you have admitted there is a strong influence through the lobbying system. Guess what.... it's there whoever is in power!! To make out Republicans don't take bribes or reward friends is pure absolute drivel. |
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