Übergeek 바둑이: Ha! I actually agree with you. But the models that scientists used to predict the "effects of global warming" haven't come true. My position is that we have no global warming and certainly it's not man made. We do have climate change but we can call that climate fluctuations or climate cycles and be just as accurate.

Pollution is another matter all together. We should be good stewards of the earth. But we shouldn't go over board and stop using fossil fuels altogether. We need to use fuels responsibly. If we had reliable green energy that was cost efficient (so far we don't) then we can move in that direction. Until then we need to use the technology we do have.

It's a huge red flag when there is money to be made for energy policy changes. Carbon credits, green dollar spending, and global warming research, not to mention the green energy investments, all stand to make a bundle if global warming policies move forward. See Al Gore. He's made millions on his lies. And in the end, he sold out to big oil anyway.

There is nothing wrong with responsible use of coal, oil, or gas. And there is no green energy technology that can supply a huge community with all their energy needs. Until there is, we have to continue to use what is available (and there is lots of it).

Artful Dodger: We do and we don't. When I see people being able to build hydrogen gas extractors for their cars from 'bits and pieces', or batteries made from cow dung....

"See Al Gore. He's made millions on his lies."

So has Tony Blair, it seems big politicians make more out of power then in!!

As to gun control.... does that mean the US will go back to using muskets and other single fire weapons as used in 1791?

(V):

> "See Al Gore. He's made millions on his lies."

So did Dick Cheney!

Übergeek 바둑이: Fine, he probably did. But Al Gore was the darling of the Global Warming movement and in the end, he refused to sell his network to Glen Beck but was ok with an organization that favors the terrorists AND is hugely connected to oil money. So much for Al Gore's sincerity. It's his own Halliburton.

Artful Dodger: ....... the CIA!!??!! I though they'd be more discreet these days. ;P

(V): Well the CIA only favors terrorists that are less bad than the really bad terrorists. I think they hope the not-so-bad terrorists will kill the really-bad terrorists (and then the CIA will go after the no-so-bad terrorists). Or something like that.

Artful Dodger: That's not true. The CIA has backed some really nasty bar stewards in the past, replaced democratically elected governments and all sorts of bad crap.

How did Al Qaeda get good at hijacking planes.... because they were trained to bring down soviet planes, the Taliban were trained to avoid Soviet troops, how to build IED's, etc.

I wonder how Iran would be today if the Oil companies hadn't got our governments put a puppet in place!

Übergeek 바둑이: So has Sarah Palin.

(V): Those muskets are still around but they're not that effective unless you're a fast reloader and you're faithful at keeping your powder dry.

Artful Dodger: Yep... I don't think 30 round shotgun magazines, attached to automatic shotguns were envisioned when the constitution was written. Pistols and bolt action rifles being more in line with the weaponry of that era.

(V): I don't think they envisioned any gun type. They envisioned the freedom to possess arms. It's the concept they stood for. The type of gun is immaterial. (also bats and nunchucks)

Artful Dodger: So many don't seem to get that. I'm sick of all these talking points. The real intent was to be able to stand up to tyranny. If we keep having wannabe dictators, who have NO regard for our constitution, like Obama, we may NEED to be able to stand up against them.
And I'll never understand why they don't get that criminals DONT care which guns are against the law. The only people they are trying to punish are the law abiding people who have THE RIGHT to have what they want.
And some don't seem to get that we aren't under their reign still, thank goodness. They are WELCOME to their silly laws

rod03801: Gun laws are basically meaningless. And gun free zones a joke. Like the mass murderer sees the "gun free zone" sign and says, "Crap! I can't bring my guns in there!"

rod03801: ... a dictator.... I think you use that label too loosely. You don't see tanks on the street or jets bombing US citizens like in Syria.

No mass executions, American troops going around *&!%@? and pillaging like in the days of old against the American Indians.

... Yes, at that time the US government was an invader, just like we were in Australia.

"They are WELCOME to their silly laws"

Our silly laws include that gun owners are screened to stop probable maniacs going on a rampage... it's not perfect, but our gun crime death rate is very low. Imagine that...

It's nice that our schools don't need armed police or guards to protect the kids. Guns being more important than them it seems.

Artful Dodger: So it's ok for someone to own a cruise missile or two?

(V): most peeps couldn't afford one let alone know how to use it.

Artful Dodger: ... Thank God for that. Some nutty Americans armed with a cruise would be a very bad idea.

... but they could afford and make themselves unguided or simple guided rockets/missiles (guided as in a simple gyroscopic guidance). Youtube basically has all the info, including how to make solid fuel.

... I know this, I have seen this. Napalm, thermite recipes all on youtube!!

(V): There are many gun types that are legal and many other that are not. Military type assault (automatic) are not. The Government did some studies (back in the Clinton days) and found that the gun bans (instituted by Clinton and Janet Reno) had no noticeable effect on crime/murder/killings. Guns aren't the problem. It's the heart of man that's the problem.

It is scary that youtube has things like recipes for massive destruction of human life! But I'll bet the posters and the subscribers are being watched by the CIA. Likely the CIA has an insider working for Google. Or Google is a CIA front.

Artful Dodger: I know it's people that pull the trigger, but when you allow a person to order 1000's of rounds at one time... ... .. get my drift? Little red light saying "why does one man need so much ammo?" flashing??

We had a full no knives or sharp items on the streets allowed. Automatic arrest for all juvi's and 99% chance of a custodial sentence... it worked. As weapons are not the norm of this country.... it is the norm that Americans are armed, so it's the norm that a criminal will arm themselves... catch 22 situation.

"It is scary that youtube has things like recipes for massive destruction of human life! But I'll bet the posters and the subscribers are being watched by the CIA."

Noooooo. When a guy is making rocket candy for his rockets as a fun hobby.. no harm. Thermite.. can be handy... plasticated it's a cheap metal cutter. I was shocked, but could see that many normal uses cannot be censored just because this world has nut jobs.

Mentos and coke.. that's a funny one!!

(V): target shooting ;)

Artful Dodger: I'd accept target practice if they were a confirmed gun club member or owner... otherwise apart from some strange doomsday preppers, no one person needs 1000's of rounds. I think at one time the standard load for a soldier going into combat was only about 1500 rounds.

Btw.... "we already have over 20,000 gun laws (which includes local laws)."

Too many laws. ;P

(V): Well the US government just purchased millions of rounds of hollow point bullets and one department that purchased these is the Treasury Dept! When asked why they needed so much ammo they answered "target practice." Sure

Artful Dodger: Well unless the US government is planning on killing millions of Americans to reduce 'costs' and replace you all with 'immigrants'.... ....

But...

"Agents carry .357-calibre pistols, Lasher said. The bullets, which add up to about 590 per agent, are for the upcoming fiscal year. Most will be expended on the firing range.
Hollow-points cause more tissue damage

Some bloggers have taken issue with the type of ammunition the agency is buying, questioning why agents need hollow-point bullets. Hollow-points are known for causing more tissue damage than other bullets when they hit a person because they expand when they enter the body.

The bullets, however, are standard issue for many law enforcement agencies, Lasher said, a fact confirmed by the directors of two law enforcement training centres.

"For practice ammunition, they do not have to be hollow-points, but hollow-points are the normal police round used for duty ammunition due to their ability to stop when they hit an object as opposed to going through it and striking more objects," said William J. Muldoon, president of the International Association of Directors of Law Enforcement Standards and Training."

You do want your police and feds armed don't you? Able to defend themselves while protecting your shores, towns and cities from crime!!

(V): Hollow point bullets are against the Geneva convention. They are not legal for cops to use either. And US government agencies are stockpiling these bullets. Even the social security department order nearly 200,000 rounds. Law enforcement is one thing but the SS agency? No. And who needs 1.4 billion rounds of hollow point bullets? Why Homeland Security does. Who they gonna shoot? And why is it ok for the Feds to buy guns and ammo "for protection" but they are complaining that their citizens are exercising their Constitutional rights!

Artful Dodger: Um... it appears they are.

"The reason most law enforcement agencies either issue or permit their officers to carry hollow-point ammunition is that when deadly force is authorized—when the immediate threat of serious physical injury or death to the officer, their partner, or someone else is present—hollow-point rounds have a better chance of stopping that threat without the risk of over penetration. In other words, the possibility of a through-and-through shot hitting someone it was not intended to hit is lessened. The goal is to step the threat without injuring or killing someone else in the process, and hollow-point ammunition helps do that."

http://www.lawofficer.com/article/tactics-and-weapons/short-history-hollow-points

(V): And the social security needs it because?

Artful Dodger: ... they have armed guards. Just like I believe some shops do in the USA... or gated communities. I hear a newspaper hired armed guards recently as they pissed some people off.

..... Guess the weapons trade needs to keep employing!!

(V): it's a conspiracy

Artful Dodger: Another one!! I saw some American pastor now stating the 'end is nigh' and the moon is telling us so.

.. Maybe we should put all the bloggers and hard line conspiracy people in one place and nuke 'em. ;)

.... No more conspiracies then. lol

(V): Pastors who predict the end are nut heads IMO. We can't know when the end will come. At least that's what the Bible tells us. I love the way they say the end will be such and such a date and then when it comes, they change the date. They need to be stoned for being false prophets!

Artful Dodger: "They need to be stoned for being false prophets!"
I'm guessing they already are.
Übergeek 바둑이 : " At the current rates of killing, gun violence in the USA causes about 900 dead people per month, while sectarian violence in Iraq caused about 600 to 1000 dead per month (as of 2008, these days it is lower). Americans don't see it, but more Americans are being killed every month in the USA than Iraqis or Afghans in their respective countries. Even Mexico and Colombia with the drug-driven violence do not have the same rate of killing."
theres a substanstial population difference.

Bwild: Yeah but guns are not the problem. People are. Take away the guns and the killings will continue.

Artful Dodger: I'm guessing more people are killed by cars than guns.
a 70+ y/o man was beat to death here recently by a 33 y/o man. we going to outlaw fists too? its stupid. of course anyone with common sense knows its people who kill people in acts of violence.
mark it up to Dr.Spock. let kids do whatever...dont bust their ass when their out of line. then when they grow up to think they can do whatever..they go to prison...or worse..flip out..get a gun..and take their frustrations out on innocent people.

Bwild: Exactly. The politicians love to jump on tragedies and use them for political gain. Kids die every day in Chicago but they've already got the black vote so who cares? Notice how some of the worst cities for crime are run by Democrats? See Detroit and Chicago-

Artful Dodger: Guns just make it easier. Point... pull trigger.... bang.

Not like having to do it with your bare hands or a bat.

(V): true it's easier with a gun. But Japan has higher sucked rate without guns so guns aren't the problem.

Artful Dodger: Considering the many ways of ending ones life... (sucked) ?? .. Guns are irrelevant. It would be considered impolite by Japanese (from what I hear) to be messy.

(V): You've never heard of death by suction? It's a barbaric practice that had been abandoned (or so I thought) centuries ago... it's a horrible way to go.

Some people confuse it with sakicide, which isn't so bad if you like that sort of thing. Not me. I'm a procrastinator. I'm not planning on leaving until after the boat has sailed.

Iamon lyme: Do you mean seppuku? If so... yes.

It was a honour thing combined with a second swordsman taking the head off.

Less worse than the old practice of hung drawn and quartered that was practised throughout Europe. Or some of the other ... ... tmi for this board. ;P

Iamon lyme: They use this method in many abortions and Obama approves it. He doesn't want kids shot (unless they are black and from Chicago) but is ok with babies in the womb having their arms and legs sucked off (especially if they are black and from Chicago).

Artful Dodger: "They use this method in many abortions"

I know. I tried watching a video about how it's done and couldn't watch the whole thing. It makes me sick to my stomach. I'd rather eat worms than to see how it's done.

(V): Sucked?? hahaha That cracks me up. I was using my ipad and it auto corrected my spelling. I never noticed it. I'll have to try to write suicide again tonight on the ipad and see how that happened.

Bwild: "theres a substanstial population difference."

LOL... sometimes it's like shooting fish in a barrel

Bwild: Yes there is. But even working it out as per 1000 population it is high.

(V): "You do want your police and feds armed don't you? Able to defend themselves while protecting your shores, towns and cities from crime!!"

Well of course, and the response times are impressive. When seconds count, the police can be there in minutes.

Iamon lyme: The police response time in some parts around here is over 15 minutes. That's why most of my rural friends are packing. Locked and loaded. (fully loaded and their guns are full of bullets too!)

;)

Artful Dodger:

> Likely the CIA has an insider working for Google. Or Google is a CIA front.

Reputedly, the two main founders of Google used to be NSA employees. Even if they were not, it is in Google's best interests to collaborate with intelligence services to stop possible threats. Can you imagine what it would do to the company if somebody said "Google could have warned everyone because they had network access to the information necessary to prevent this disaster"?

With respect to semi-automatic assault rifles, it is true that psychopaths and insane morons will use them to kill people, but then somebody who is disturbed will kill with or without assault rifles. The real problems is the impact of the attack. I am sure that Japan has just as much violent crime as the USA, the difference is that because guns are illegal in Japan, the death rate is a lot lower.

Three months of gun violence in the USA cause more death than the 9-11 attack did. At the current rates of killing, gun violence in the USA causes about 900 dead people per month, while sectarian violence in Iraq caused about 600 to 1000 dead per month (as of 2008, these days it is lower). Americans don't see it, but more Americans are being killed every month in the USA than Iraqis or Afghans in their respective countries. Even Mexico and Colombia with the drug-driven violence do not have the same rate of killing.

The big question is: is the killing due to easy access to guns or due to some other cultural factors? I think that access to guns is only a small part of the problem. There are economic issues, drug-trade issues, and a culture that has promoted violence as a form of entertainment. I think that if politicians really cared about the problem, not only would they tackle gun control, but they would also curb violent television and video games. Sadly, when they had the chance both democrats and republicans refused to do anything about violent content geared towards children because after all "the parents must choose for their children", but what if the parents have been desensitized to violence too? Then there is the fact that half of the violent military-style games out there have been funded by the Pentagon as a means to "train" America's future patriots and to entice young people to enlist. If the government itself is promoting violence, what good will gun control do?

Übergeek 바둑이: lol and I was just kidding about Google.

I think reasonable gun control measures are what we need BUT we already have over 20,000 gun laws (which includes local laws). It's doubtful that any new laws will have significant effect. I see politicians using the gun issue as a political tool. I don't even own a gun and probably never will. And I've been held up by two morons, each with a gun pointed at my head. But I'm still not opposed to gun ownership AND I favor concealed carry. In my case, the guys that robbed me got off. THAT'S the problem. Our laws are meaningless if they have no teeth. AND an underage kid carrying an illegal firearm gets NO TIME! He has to get caught 5 times before the law kicks in. How stupid is that? Anyway, there are things we can and should do but likely we will never agree as the Repubs and the Dumocrats LOVE to play politics.