Pedro Martínez: It's happened to numerous people and it's "only their fault". Each time. Time and again.

The point is that it's preventable. Trivially preventable. Good design doesn't encourage people to make mistakes. Good design takes human perception into account. This is generally the case here at BrainKing but here is one instance where it's clearly not the case. You may not have a problem with it but many have and many more will. Ask those who have failed to notice the warning whether they would have made the mistake if the text was in red.

It's preventable.

playBunny: What reluctance? When I switch to Turkish version and click the resign button for example in this game:
http://brainking.com/cz/ShowGame?g=1164441

I see this message:

Uyarı! Eğer bu oyundan çekilirseniz, tavla kurallarına göre rakibiniz 3 kadar puan kazanacaktır.

It's only and only Tayfun's fault that he didn't see this warning.

Fencer:

In this match my opponent was ahead 3 : 2. I was winning the 4th game comfortably and my opponent decided to resign. He didn't see the warning about points loss.

This was our conversation:

To: TC
Date and time: 6. November 2005, 16:16:45
Subject: Re: Your opponent resigned the game (Backgammon)

Thanks. :-)
I don't understand why you resigned though, especially a backgammon with a 2-cube! You could have run to save the gammon. Another three rolls for me to get off and only two needed to save yourself.

You are reading a reply to this message:
You got it, congrats!
___________________
From: TC
Date and time: 6. November 2005, 16:30:56
Subject: Re: Your opponent resigned the game (Backgammon)

I thought with my resign only the game and not the match! This is my failure and may be also bug for such type game matches.
___________________
To: TC
Date and time: 6. November 2005, 16:34:12
Subject: Re: Resignation

You're mostly correct. Resigning itself only pertains to the current game. But you resigned a backgammon when the cube was at 2 and so you gave me 6 points. It was that which ended the match!

Did you not see the warning message telling you how many points would be lost?
___________________
From: TC
Date and time: 6. November 2005, 16:45:04
Subject: Re: Resignation

No I did not see any message!
___________________


I really don't like winning matches this way. It's even worse than winning through a timeout.

Fencer, please make the change to the warning message. How many people are going to have to lose significant amounts of points and even matches because this trivial change is left undone? I really fail to understand your reluctance. Andersp has made the change in the Swedich version and I am certain that there will have been no players mistaking a bright red warning notice for just another line of black text in a block of lines of black text.

Important stuuff should stand out. It's basic design!

The same principle applies to the match score. I know you won't move it where up it can be seen but perhaps you could see your way to making it blue instead of black?

grenv: The figures are from the list of established players. Median would be a better word than average though I doubt the average would be much different. I'm not sure what effect the total number of games would have other than making for a smoother bell curve distribution.

I was also surprised when I saw how high the averages were. Compared to any other site these numbers are silly. At FIBS, for instance, average players are around 1500 and top of the range is 2000. At Vog its 1600 and 2050.

playBunny: Total games played makes a difference as well wouldn't it?

Is the average, the average of all players? I'm surprised at how high they are, particularly backgammon.

The following order is that given by Pedro and Hrqls:


Game ........... #1 ........... #20 ....... Average ....... Range ...... Players
Hyper ........ 2188 .......... 2120 ..........1960 ..........160 ........... 536
Back .......... 2431 ..........2210 ..........2002 ..........210 ........... 882
Nack ......... 2011 ...........1881 ..........1696 ..........185 ........... 257
Crowded .... 2081 .......... 1853 ..........1690 ..........163 ........... 202
Race .......... 2026 ..........1911 ..........1688 ..........223 ........... 234

The Range value is that between the average and the #20, on the assumption that the top 20 are unrepresentative. Given the sample size, that's open to debate. (If you fel strongly enough to argue, just post your own version)

It's interesting to note that the average ratings are in the same order, though it's very close with the last three.

What any of this really means though ... ?? ;-)

The first Hyper21 tournament is getting ready to start in a few hours with 32 players signed up - yea!

Since it so popular, I've created the second tournament

http://brainking.com/en/Tournaments?trg=12092&tri=68060&trnst=0

It is a Hyper Backgammon tournament using the cube to 21 points. Since Hyper Backgammon can be a quick game, it is perfect to use the 21 point cube with it. Open to everyone. Set to start around November 20th. Good Luck!

Pedro Martínez: I agree, I only meant the early moves. I got bored quickly. I think it would be better over a real board where you can get to the point more quickly.
I used to play Acey Deucey, which is essentially the same but with a 2-1 bonus :)

grenv: LOL, you need to think A LOT in the Race.

BIG BAD WOLF: But if it's obvious which strategy to use (depending on the roll) there is less skill. I found in BG race that for much of the early game I didn't need to think. That isn't true in other forms of the game.

playBunny: luck on top, strategy at the bottom

• Hyper Backgammon
  
• Backgammon
  
• Nackgammon
  
• Crowded Backgammon
  
• Race Backgammon
  

although the last 2 might be equal .. not sure about those

grenv: Lol. That's exactly why I made the poll. I'm interested in seeing how opinions correlate with the ratings and whether they both add anything to Hrqls' enquiry.

I think BG Race would have the least amount of "luck" since you can make your own strategy of weather to try to make a "block" to keep your opponenet from advancing, or trying to "race" quickly to the other side, or keep some pieces on the bar to keep your opponenet from advancing too quickly to your home area - just so many more options and strategies to choose from allow you to quickly adapt to good/bad dice rolls.

One way to tell would be to see how bunched up the ratings are. If you did some sort of analysis you could actually be quite sure. The more bunched up the more luck.

Crowded Backgammon seems to be less bunched than the others. I haven't the time to analyze too closely though.

grenv: i totally agree, and the different decisions required in the different phases of the game also contributes to skill being more important. For example, in hyper, one can play many games without capturing or even having the opportunity to capture. It makes the skill set far more limited. In race, you need more of a repetoire.

redsales: For example, if I invented a game where you just raced pieces around the board with no capturing, it wouldn't matter how long the game was, it would always be 100% luck.

Therefore the type of decisions that need to be made by the player is also an important factor.

redsales: Possibly true, but in much of the early part of the game there are not the same type of decisions to make as there are straight away in backgammon.

not sure about the middle, but to me BG race must have the least luck involved since the games take the longest on average and therefore have the higher number of rolls, giving luck a chance to equal out.

playBunny:

Hyper Backgammon
Backgammon Race
Nackgammon = Backgammon
Crowded Backgammon

playBunny:


Hyper Backgammon
Backgammon
Nackgammon
Crowded Backgammon
Backgammon Race

As a side issue in this topic, here's an opinion poll...

What, in your judgement, is the best order for the following in terms of how much luck is involved? (Highest luck factor at the top).

   • Backgammon
   • Backgammon Race
   • Crowded Backgammon
   • Hypergammon
   • Nackgammon

Hrqls: I think I agree with your statement.

statement : the more pieces in a game of backgammon, the less influence luck will have

of course hypergammon takes this to its extremes, but does this also count for crowded backgammon and race backgammon vs normal backgammon and nackgammon ?

any opinions ? :)

playBunny: Quite right.

LionsLair: You should have moved out of your opponent's home anyway! ;-) At that stage of the game your own home table is your only asset. Breaking your home table should be done with the utmost reluctance. You drastically reduced its effectiveness by moving 6/1 4/1. A 3-point table is next to useless at holding an opponent. Better would have been to run, 22/14, and get the man home, hopefully to make a block on 6. That would give you a 5-point table and might save the game. The danger of your two remaining blots being hit is certainly a worry but keeping those back men safe is pointless if, when they get a chance to take action, it's ineffective.

bumble:
duh.... brain fart!

LionsLair: You don't need to move out of your opponents home. You could just use the 5 and the 3 on your side of the board.

LionsLair: You can still move a three - in your home quarter.

LionsLair: oops! this game
http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1046552

I should be forced to move out of my opponents home in this game, however if I want to cheat I can move the 5 and NOT the 3... what's up?

Andersp: lol .. i just wont make it red .. so he cant blame both of us at the same time ;)

Hrqls: I didnt ask for Fencers permission so dont blame me if you get in trouble! LOL

Andersp: ah nice!i already read the message when i checked the page .. as i already read the messages .. but this makes it stand out much better

i didnt know the translators could add colors as well in any part the wanted .. i thought it could be done in the parts in which fencer allowed :)

nice! will have a look what i can do in the dutch translation (somewhere later this week)

playBunny: lol .. i just realised it was in the same game ... so i only would only lose 1 point .. i think thats why it didnt show .. and why i didnt see it :)

i just tried to resign another game and clearly saw the message that i would lose 8 points if i would definetly resign :)

playBunny: have 18 other entries to translate first...we must make Fencer happy as you know

Andersp: "It's already in red in the swedish/norweigian translation"

Way to go Sweden/Norway!

Are you gonna bump up the font size of your match scores and put them in blue? If you do then I shall go green.

grenv: yes i replied to a post with the headline "Resignation warning" :)

Andersp: Ok, we were talking about the score. You went back to the resignation warning. :)

grenv: did you click "resign" and looked above the game..or are we not alking about the same warning? :)

9 poäng match med dubblingskub (#2)
Turnering: South Pacific Cube Backgammon
Partiets ID-nr: 1152741, Matchens ID-nr: 37576
Din ändrade BKR efter detta spel: vinst: 2213 (+5), remi/oavgjort: 2205 (-3), förlust: 2198 (-10)
Det är imsoaddicteds tur.
Ställning: grenv: 1.0, imsoaddicted: 0.0
Resultat av avslutade spel (imsoaddicted - grenv, Backgammon): 0 : 0 (= 0)
Tid per drag (?): 2 dagar, This was red -->inga fria dagar (4. November 2005, 10:13:58 är sista tidpunkten för draget innan timeout)
Offentligt spel (synligt för andra spelare)
Rankat spel (resultatet kommer att räknas i spelarens BKR)
Brädesstorlek: 1 (ändra)
Layout: kolumner (ändra)
Fria dagar: Lördag och Söndag (ändra)
Din motståndare utnyttjar automatisk semester (?)

BIG BAD WOLF: Ok..i see..well for those who play "in swedish" its a red warning

Andersp: yea, but it automaticly takes me to the english version. Plus I'm unable to see your "resign" page since it is not my game.

So I clicked on "resign" for one of my games and it was still in black. (then clicked to continue in game and not resign)

BIG BAD WOLF: did you click my link..im talking about the swedish site

Andersp: just checked - not red for me (english)

grenv: looks red to me

http://brainking.com/se/ShowGame?g=1139898&a=10

Andersp: Not when I tried it.

playBunny: Its already in red in the swedish/norweigian translation

grenv: Oh, I quite agree but it ain't gonna be moved. I reckon that's total pie in the sky. Adding colour is a suggested alternative.

playBunny: No, put it in big writing above the board please. It is so often used in strategy that I believe it is almost as important as what position the pieces are on the board.

grenv: It's clear once you know it's there but several people have missed it. All it would take is a splash of paint...

Talking of colour... If the match score isn't going to be moved up beside or above the board then putting it in colour would be a helpful alternative. At least the eyes will spot it immediately when scrolling down to find the score.