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 Chess variants (10x10)Chess variants on a 10x10 board, in particular Grand Chess. For posting: - invitations to games (you can also use the New Game menu or for particular games: Grand Chess) - information about upcoming tournaments - discussion of games (please limit this to completed games or discussion on how a game has arrived at a certain position ... speculation on who has an advantage or the benefits of potential moves is not permitted) - links to interesting related sites (non-promotional) You are not allowed to post messages to this board. Minimum level of membership required for posting on this board is Brain Pawn. Mode: Everyone can post
1. March 2009, 12:25:39 Subject: Re: Two new variant ideas Pioneer54: Thank you very much, for submitting your thought. I was afraid my suggestions tumbled in an oubliette :-) . I agree with you concerning almost all of your points of view, notably about chess. about cannon "the obtuse nature in comparison to real battlefield situations", chess is not exempt, if we consider the Pawn for example he moves straight on but capture only in diagonal! I am more inclined to think the reason of his lack of popularity is mainly due to his like to say confidential existence. I would not be amazed, when more spreaded in the public, it will generate many enthusiasts aficionados. Janus is very funny game and the King on the back row authorize to Castle. My desire to deviate from pieces based on Knight movement is not that I am on principle reluctant but more wishful to explore new territories on a large board (I would like a board of 12x10 for example). Would not be a pity to discard some interesting pieces for the sole reason they are unknown? Your first point. GrandChess is 10 squared board but don't lose from sight it is only one more than Shogi (9x9). I imagine such promotion could tears the opponent front. But, in relation with you fith point, I feel far less sure. I dare even to say: you are right. The second point. Would we be afraid to contradict some Grand Chess rules, knowing we are nvestigating a variant? On your third point, you are absolute right about the capture of a promoted pawn. I should not have precise that superfluous rule. Ultimately, you may be right. Who know? I thought it may be alike revolutionary game with only adding ome classical pieces. I am grateful for your open minded and construstive approach. Perhaps some will join their point of view as constructively as yours. 1. March 2009, 20:25:23 Subject: Re: Two new variant ideas P-G: Your first point. GrandChess is 10 squared board but don't lose from sight it is only one more than Shogi (9x9). I imagine such promotion could tears the opponent front. I think the argument that the Shogi general isn't effective in GrandChess hasn't so much to do with the board size, as well with the other pieces. In Shogi, there are only 4 pieces that have a long range: rook, bishop (and their promoted pieces), and the two lances. But the lances can only move forwards, and cannot deviate from their file. In Grand chess each side has 2 rooks, 2 bishops, a queen, a marshall and a cardinal. In (grand)chess, on average, the pieces have a far greater mobility than in shogi. Picking a piece from shogi, and dropping it into a chess variant is usually not going to work. Chess, shogi and Chinese chess aren't games with just a set of pieces randomly thrown together. No, chess, shogi and Chinese chess work well (and are hence popular) because of the combination of pieces work well. It's like taking a unit of Napolean's army that worked well for him, and putting it in the German army of 1940. It ain't going to work. 2. March 2009, 08:44:44 Subject: Re: Two new variant ideas Modified by P-G (2. March 2009, 08:45:06) AbigailII: The sentence you put in exergue whas for explaining my intention. But if you read the the next sentence, you could admit I bow down to Pioneer54's replay :-) . Indeed the slow moving pieces in Shogi is extraordinarily improved by the possibility to drop pieces. That make this game so ferocious. 1. March 2009, 21:59:59 Subject: Points to Ponder P-G: Good point there about the pawns, they do have an awkward mobility. You may well be correct about the cannon being not so well known. It has been said that xiang-qi is the "world's most popular game", a rather disingenuous boast since China has by far more people than any other country. Attempts to promote the game elsewhere have produced less than stellar results; whether this is due to the peculiar application of the cannon shot or some other aspect is hard to ascertain. You write that a gold general (following promotion) could tear into an opponent's front, assuming there was anything left there to attack. This works in shogi, where pieces are continually recycled, but in grand (or another similar game on a larger board), it would require an early promotion, which does occur, but rather uncommonly. I was thinking of the latter stages of grand, when there are far fewer units standing on a more open board. The general would be lonely, and at that point may be only marginally better than a pawn. He may be able to move in many directions, but probably won't be capturing anything. Abigail's point is well made, that the piece arrays fit the game designs; the oriental games are more strategic. But also good is the mention you made of expanded boards, like 12 by 10. This might be the optimum for your design that would give the cannons greater scope. I agree that many shogi variants are too cluttered; one game ("middle shogi", I think, not sure) was reputed to have gone over 300 turns!!? 2. March 2009, 09:17:10 Subject: Re: Points to Ponder Pioneer54: I think the reason for Chinese Chess is confined into China is because it is a very open game (only 5 pawns) resulting in a almost 100% tactical game. I have to be very humble with this opinion because I have a short practise of that game. I admit, as I replied to Abigaill, you are right, the promotion could became too late for an efficient use. I maintain, up to now, my point of view: adding Cannons and a second Cardinal could boost the interest for a variant of Grand Chess. I like your possible approval for a 12x10 board. That may be the solution. Well the seed is spreaded, will it growth? I thank you for this very interesting discussion. 2. March 2009, 10:53:15 Subject: Re: Points to Ponder P-G: We have to hope the seed will sprout, and keep our fingers crossed! You've got the creative spirit. Placing cannons on the grand board would definitely alter the complexion of the game. I would be more amenable to the idea of a "pure" cannon; that is, one that may fire a given distance (say, for example, 4, 5 or 6 spaces), not with the need for an intervening obstacle. Either way, I suppose their range would have to be limited somewhat, otherwise you just get into a free-for-all. In other words, you must move them out into risky territory in order to make them threatening. Alas, I remain a bit skeptical that they could prove to be too powerful, and spoil the idea, or otherwise pose some flexibility problem with a grand variant set........ An extra Card is a bold proposition. It's a dangerous piece, and having a pair of them per side would make matters much more challenging. I was trying to imagine how your idea would work on a 12 (vertical) by 10 (horizontal) board. It would be neat if this site (or some other) offered something like an "idea editor", a system in which games could be played strictly off the record by setting up your own board size and piece array of choice, just to see what might happen by experimentation. In this way, a handful or so games could be tried, and then you might modify it; something you assumed would be useful might not turn out to be, but something else you had not thought of at all could come to mind. I don't know how difficult this would be to arrange, but there is already a game editor for screen chess and others, so it doesn't seem too problematic. 2. March 2009, 11:15:28 Subject: Re: Points to Ponder Pioneer54: was trying to imagine how your idea would work on a 12 (vertical) by 10 (horizontal) board. It would be neat if this site (or some other) offered something like an "idea editor", a system in which games could be played strictly off the record by setting up your own board size and piece array of choice, just to see what might happen by experimentation. If you have a Windows box, you might consider getting "Zillions of Games". It allows you to create almost any abstract board game you can imagine. 2. March 2009, 13:26:38 Subject: Re: Points to Ponder Pioneer54: If I understand correctly, a "pure" Cannon will act like a Rook with a limited range? The Chinese Cannon implying an intervening obstacle is just what make it so rich of possibilities and so different from all other pieces. Isn'it? You suggest a 12x10 with 12 rows and 10 columns, have I grasp what you wrote? If correct, I don't see the point for the melioration. I thought more for a 10 rows and 12 columns, in order to expand the positionning at the start. I refrein to propose a 12x12 board, fearing to be consider as a megalomaniac :-). But is that really foolish? I totaly agree with you, the best would be to experiment and so doing improving more surely. I wonder if Fencer read this discussion board. Perhaps he could envisage to program your nice idea of a "Idea editor". How a rich source for new ideas it will feed! Abigaill: I remember many years ago I bought "Zillion of games". It is sleeping somewhere in the house, I will try to retrieve it. Thank you, because I didn't remember we could create some board games. |
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