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10. Marto 2009, 20:07:10
The Usurper 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
Czuch: "do you believe it is okay to use military force for the purpose of liberating people from an unworthy, and otherwise evil regime?"

The simple rule is to stay out of people's business. Unworthy? The U.S. regime is also unworthy. Evil? The U.S. regime is also evil in many ways. Does that justify Russia, or China, or somebody else coming to "liberate us" from our oppressive government?

But even if, for the sake of argument, it were right to liberate a people not asking to be liberated....let us assume the evil ruler is killing all his subjects and not using chemical weapons we supplied him with to do it, as in our old friend Saddam's case (remember we put him in power & he was our ally up until Gulf War I)....let's assume it is a genuine rescue of a people desperately oppressed....well then, maybe a case could be made for that, like rescuing a child from abusive parents.

And that, naturally, is what the U.S. claims its mission was in Iraq. If that's true, why stop at Iraq? Why not rescue the Chinese and the Russians and every oppressed people the world over? Since we are so wise & wonderful, why not just police the whole world for everybody's good...even if they don't recognize that good for themselves? Even you ought to be able to recognize how anti-democratic, anti-libertarian, anti-freedom such a concept really is. Every people has the fundamental right of self-determination. It is on this right we ourselves stood, when we declared our independence in 1776.

And it isn't the case at all that we are spreading liberty, even in Iraq. It's the cover story. But we've brought slaughter and chaos to Iraq, not liberation. We have killed, not healed. We've brought more oppression, in the guise of a puppet-democracy. The only Iraqis we've freed are the dead ones...we freed them from the sorrows of life. It doesn't take a genius to see this, only a fairly impartial observer.

I've reached my 500 word limit.

10. Marto 2009, 20:16:34
Czuch 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
The Usurper: t were right to liberate a people not asking to be liberated..

Ive not been clear, I am asking about liberating people who are asking to be liberated, which clearly the majority of the Iraqi people were....

If you are not asking to be liberated, then why bother?

10. Marto 2009, 20:41:04
The Usurper 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
Czuch: "I am asking about liberating people who are asking to be liberated, which clearly the majority of the Iraqi people were...."

No they weren't. Just how many excuses for invasion will you believe from proven liars? Iraq connected with al-queda! Oops, no. Iraq has WMDs! Oops, no. Oh, I know! Poor Iraqis want to be free of Saddam Hussein! That's it. So let's ride to the rescue. No self-interest on our part, you see, we just want to be helpful. It's what we do in the world, our official policy. To be helpful to others all through the world. We call it Unrealpolitik.

"I am sure that if you were arguing my side, you would be able to find some nice bible quotes explaining how order comes from chaos, or something like that..."

If I were assigned your side in a debate, who knows what I might come up with? But in that case I'd be on the wrong side of the debate & the wrong side of history, so I'd better get ready to do some serious spinning.

"You have been there?"

Have you?

"If and when the majority of the American people believe as you do that the US government is using a theoretical WMD against its own people, in secret and harmful ways, and we become unable to do anything about it ourselves, then by all means, the Russians or Chinese or whomever would be more than welcome in coming here and trying to liberate us!!"

Be careful what you wish for. A people can only free themselves. If we are to be liberated, we must liberate ourselves from our darker half. No one can do this for us.

There is no such thing as democracy at the point of a gun. That is democracy's anti-thesis. Only in this age of mass propaganda can a people be fooled into believing such twisted nonsense.

10. Marto 2009, 20:48:26
Czuch 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
The Usurper: No self-interest on our part,

Of course there is self interest on our part! Nobody is arguing differently?

As I just explained, our interest included not having to spend the next thousand years taking care of them, giving them a chance to prosper for themselves, free from the burden they put on the rest of the world, which would have NEVER happened unless we helped it to happen by force!

You ask why then not everyone??? That is partly why, because not everyone is a burden on us... we do not feed the Russian kids, or chinas kids... they may have burdens but not to the extent where it effects us so much yet.

Plus we have only so much we can do to help, one place one cause at a time, someday we can get to them all, but it takes time, I raq was the right place and the right time, it had to be done, and the mixture of excuses and reasons and time and place all lined up, and it happened..... you dont like it, I do....

10. Marto 2009, 20:58:57
The Usurper 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
Czuch: "you dont like it, I do...."

That's the bottom line for you, you like it so however you can justify it, you will. I'm different from you. I consider whether a thing is right, not what I personally prefer. And I think the Iraqi people have to like it, not you or me. Now, the Iraqi people hate us. And for good reason. We just went in and destroyed their civilization.

Spin it how you want. Hitler did. Bush did. Caesar did. I call it as I see it. I call it tyranny.

You say I blame American first. No I don't. I don't blame America for WWII. I don't blame America for 1776. I don't blame America for WWI. But I do blame America for Vietnam, and for Iraq, and for many other crimes against humanity. If my son committed murder, I'd blame him too.

10. Marto 2009, 21:00:30
Czuch 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
The Usurper: not what I personally prefer.

Its not just that I personally prefer it, i think it is absolutely the right thing!

10. Marto 2009, 21:03:10
The Usurper 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
Czuch: "Its not just that I personally prefer it, i think it is absolutely the right thing!"

I'm glad you are following your conscience, even if I believe your information is bad. If you are following your conscience, then perhaps in time you'll get better informed and see things more clearly, and your opinions will change. There is hope for a man who does & believes what he thinks is right.

10. Marto 2009, 21:04:51
Czuch 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
The Usurper: Problem is, I USED to think like you, and I have seen things more clearly and my opinions have already changed!!

10. Marto 2009, 21:06:56
The Usurper 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
Czuch: "Problem is, I USED to think like you, and I have seen things more clearly and my opinions have already changed!!"

Too bad you changed. Often in a dictatorship, people go the way of the dictators.

10. Marto 2009, 21:08:24
Czuch 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
The Usurper: Often in a dictatorship, people go the way of the dictators.

10. Marto 2009, 21:03:17
Czuch 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
The Usurper: But I do blame America for Vietnam


I have personally been to Vietnam.... the overwhelming majority of the people there, both in the north and in the south told me that they are glad for our efforts there and their ONLY regret is that we bailed on them like we did!!!!

The same will be true in Iraq, I know it I have first hand knowledge of it, problem is, It will take 20 years for me and Bush to be proven right!

10. Marto 2009, 21:05:40
The Usurper 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
Czuch: "I have personally been to Vietnam...."

There are plenty of voices from Vietnam who speak a different tale about the Vietnamese than you do.

10. Marto 2009, 21:07:14
Czuch 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
The Usurper: There are plenty of voices from Vietnam who speak a different tale about the Vietnamese than you do.


Really? You have someone who has personally been there conducting personal interviews with the common people today????

10. Marto 2009, 22:36:56
Mort 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
Czuch: The only way to have one the Vietnam war would have to taken on the suppliers of arms to the North Vietnamese. Not really a good idea. The US thought they could win it in the jungle.. .. no way, it was impossible. Even if they had taken out the main armies, there would have been a guerilla war after that would have killed and killed and killed.

11. Marto 2009, 08:27:12
Czuch 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
(V): The only way to have one the Vietnam war would have to taken on the suppliers of arms to the North Vietnamese

I am not saying the US had a great plan to win in Vietnam, they learned nothing from the French failure at dien ben foo (or however it is spelled, dont have time to look it up right now) but the french messed up and underestimated the Vietnamese and the US didnt learn a thing and did the same mistakes all over again.

It was against the law for the US to bomb the supply route to the viet cong by way of the ho chi mihn trail because it went through Cambodia, and it was our government who ultimately got in the way of our successful help there.

Anyway, even if you are right and there was no way to win in the jungle, ultimately we have won, because Vietnam is more prosperous now than then, and they are our allies more now than ever, and they are happy we helped them, and they are better off for it!

Iraq will be no different....

11. Marto 2009, 11:50:50
Mort 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
Czuch: No you lost Vietnam, those who took over made it prosperous, as for Cambodia... you are missing the point... Chinese!!!!!!! If the war had spread then direct Chinese involvement was going to happen I recon. That would have led to a war no one could win.

11. Marto 2009, 16:53:41
Czuch 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
(V): The point I was making is that the Vietnamese people, regardless of the hardships some had to endure, the overwhelming majority appreciate what we tried to do for them, to help them stave off the oppression of communism, and 30 years later they are a more prosperous place than had we let the north communists take over the whole country, and from there who knows....

They do not resent us, they do not hate us, they like that even in failure, we tried to do what was right and stand up for them, and with them in the name of freedom, and it is my point to draw a comparison with them and the Iraqis.... Usurper claims the Iraqis didnt want to be liberated, and they resent us, and that we have caused more problems than we have helped.... but history will prove him wrong on all counts

11. Marto 2009, 16:58:10
Mort 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
Czuch: Um the government is communist now, just they have recognised that economic development is more important.

11. Marto 2009, 16:41:40
Pedro Martínez 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
Czuch: Điện Biên Phủ

10. Marto 2009, 20:20:32
Czuch 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
The Usurper: If and when the majority of the American people believe as you do that the US government is using a theoretical WMD against its own people, in secret and harmful ways, and we become unable to do anything about it ourselves, then by all means, the Russians or Chinese or whomever would be more than welcome in coming here and trying to liberate us!!!

Let me know when we get there please

10. Marto 2009, 22:28:12
Mort 
Temo: Re: theoretical WMD against its own people, in secret and harmful ways,
Czuch: Ever heard of the plans to use a bio-engineered fungicide on the USA to kill poppy and cannabis plants. It was supposed to only affect these two plants. It was to be used in Florida and got approved, but the courts reversed the decision as they were unsure that the fungicide (Fusarium oxysporum) would remain stable and not mutate and start attacking all plants.

The Columbian Government earlier vetoed plans by the USA to test a similar fungicide on the same grounds.

10. Marto 2009, 20:23:08
Czuch 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
The Usurper: But we've brought slaughter and chaos to Iraq,

You have been there?

10. Marto 2009, 20:25:25
Czuch 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
The Usurper: I am sure that if you were arguing my side, you would be able to find some nice bible quotes explaining how order comes from chaos, or something like that...

10. Marto 2009, 20:35:36
Czuch 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
Modifita de Czuch (10. Marto 2009, 20:39:10)
The Usurper: Really??? A people who are starving to death and relying on the outside world to feed and clothe them and to monitor their government for them, these are people we have no right to liberate????



You take away our giving them my money and you take away our paying to monitor saddam, and you take away all our aid and our responsibility to them and for them, then I can agree with you, we have nothing to do with them at all, let them all rot in hell as far as i care....


But as a good socialist you should understand this better? You support that if we give banks money we have a right to monitor them more closely and regulate them, basically govern them? You supposrt that if we give you food stamps, we can impose limits on what you can buy with them, right? Thats the way of the world, if I support you, I can make the rules for you too. You must have heard from your parents at one time "as long as you live under my roof"....You dont like them telling you what to do, then move out, dont be beholden to them anymore.

As far as I am concerned, when you take my money to support yourself, then I have a right to impose limits and regulations and rules on you...

That includes doing what I deem necessary to make you more stable and prosperous and self reliant in the future as I possibly am able to!

10. Marto 2009, 20:44:23
The Usurper 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
Czuch: "Really??? A people who are starving to death and relying on the outside world to feed and clothe them and to monitor their government for them, these are people we have no right to liberate????"

You just don't know history. The Iraqi children were starving in the 90s because of the sanctions WE imposed. This we have even admitted. Madeline Albright, Secretary of State under Clinton, said that 500,000 Iraqi children dying as a result of our sanctions was "worth it," in order to "contain" Saddam Hussein.

10. Marto 2009, 20:52:02
Czuch 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
The Usurper: The point is that Iraq or the UN can sanction us all they want to and we will be just fine... saddam sucked at taking care of his people, otherwise, our sanctions could not hurt them! You have to blame saddam and his tyrannical ways for any problems Iraqi people had.... but thats right, you are part of the blame america first and for everything crowd!!!! You dont think Iraq has any blame for their own poor situation???

10. Marto 2009, 20:54:38
Czuch 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
Modifita de Czuch (11. Marto 2009, 01:40:23)
Czuch: If we just hadnt sanctioned them for being (BEEP) they would be a thriving and prosperous nation, without the need of our money and support????




10. Marto 2009, 21:01:02
The Usurper 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
Modifita de The Usurper (11. Marto 2009, 01:39:22)
Czuch: "If we just hadnt sanctioned them for being (BEEP) they would be a thriving and prosperous nation, without the need of our money and support????"

Yes, without sanctions they'd have rebuilt and been just fine. It is US meddling with THEM that caused their problems. Saddam wouldn't even have come to power except WE initiated the coup. Learn some history.

10. Marto 2009, 20:52:23
The Usurper 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
Czuch: "As far as I am concerned, when you take my money to support yourself, then I have a right to impose limits and regulations and rules on you..."

Are you still talking about Iraq? Talk about spinning an argument! Make up your mind, are you for liberating the Iraqis, or for "imposing limits and regulations and rules on them"?

I know what the U.S. is there for. To control the Middle East, most especially the oil supply, and to impose our will on the inhabitants, in order to do so.
This is not secret knowledge. No rocket scientist is needed to understand it.

10. Marto 2009, 20:57:37
Czuch 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
The Usurper: re you for liberating the Iraqis, or for "imposing limits and regulations and rules on them"?


Forcing out their backwards government... that, in effect, are the imposed limits and regulations.....

10. Marto 2009, 20:59:32
Czuch 
Temo: Re: The Larger Issue
The Usurper: yes it is in our interest to have a stable and prosperous middle east... but it is in the best interest of the whole world as well, and in the best interest of the Iraqi people too, a win win win situation, thats a good thing, not bad!

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