(V):here in the states, a major contributer is drugs

Bwild: Which ones? The legal or illegal or both? And that's moving onto blaming rather then stating the obvious... There is a problem with some people that is a carried down 'burden' which leads to people just trying to survive.

Drugs are not the cause, they are just an evident result of the cause.

(V):I've seen many go into ruin over drugs...drugs that are readily available on the street.

Bwild: Yes... and in chemists as well So? There is an old saying amongst the wise.. "only the abused abuse themselves"

Cause... symptoms are just the evidence, and drug abuse is one of the symptoms.

(V): Right on.

(V): Right. It's the user who needs to be first blamed, not the drug. I know people who smoke marijuana who are quite responsible and successful. Though really, its a different class of drug.

I think Bwild has a point with some of the harder drugs. It's probably pretty rare that users of those are successful. But I still say it's the person, not the drug.

rod03801:higher fuel prices also are a major contributer to poverty

rod03801: I think the point of debate here... Is it the drug abuser who brings himself down because of his drug abuse, or is it the person who is already down, who turns to drugs?

Seems like liberals are going to say that drug abuse is a symptom of a depressed life, and the conservatives are going to say that drug abuse is a cause of a depressed life?

Czuch: I think in reality it has to be a combination of both. But we can't overlook the role of the drug-pusher, whether of illegal drugs or legal ones. There is an insidious process of seduction going on, on TV and the street corner. Nor can we ignore the drug-pusher's sources & channels, not only illegal cartels but also the CIA.

Czuch:It's both in my view.  Clearly, some who are well off, but get involved in drugs, can find themselves in financial ruin (not to mention the physical toll drugs take on a person).   Others, who are depressed for whatever reason, self medicate through the drug of their choice.  I'm not sure of the stats on poverty and drugs. 

While I believe there is a connection between drugs and poverty, I don't think there is necessarily a causal relationship.  Except in some cases, one does not give birth to the other.  They are more like cousins.

The single most common factor to poverty is single parenthood.  A single mom has a 60 percent (it may be higher) greater chance to live in poverty than she would if she stayed motherless or was married. 

I'd have to look it up but somewhere I read that in many of the poorer homes, nobody works outside the home.  In many of these cases, the persons were capable of working, but chose not to work.  Instead, they relied on the government to fix things and take care of them.

Poverty is a huge problem around the globe.  All of us who are able should do what we can to alleviate the suffering of others.  Businesses and community should do everything possible to help the needy in our neighborhoods.  I'm not fully against some (read that limited) government assistance but I'm sure that it should NOT come from the Federal government as they waste money - it's better off out of their hands.  Perhaps State and local governments can help but the bulk of caring for the needy ought to come from the people in the community voluntarily.  (And people who can work, need to get a job, maybe two.  When my kids were young and I needed to make ends meet, I worked THREE jobs.  Suck it up, roll up your sleeves, get your fingers dirty and earn your bread!  That's always been my attitude.

The last thing the government should do is to saddle its citizens with oppressive taxes to support the life style of others.  I'm sure we all know or have known people on government assistance that clearly didn't need the help.  They were milking the system.  And we also know that our "representatives" will spend our money very easily - and they can't be trusted.  Even if they could be trusted, "spreading the wealth around" amounts to theft. 

Yes I recognize that there are people in our communities that need help and could fall through the cracks.  But limited assistance seems better than the crazy entitlement system we currently have.  It's out of  control spending that we can't afford and money we don't have.  But now I'm preaching to the choir.

Cheers~

Artful Dodger: Also known about those who come from a poor household is that this can be the building place for a self made millionaire. So a generation is poor in a family, but a significant number of millionaires come from such families as well as people who do well.

Better a poor happy one parent family then an rich unhappy, uncaring two parent family where jobs come before family.

(V): Better a poor happy one parent family then an rich unhappy, uncaring two parent family

You should have left your sentence right there...

Czuch:  I'm a totally independent far-right fundy 

Czuch: No. Sometimes people can just go that little to far on the job front that leaves the children missing what could be an important element in their lives.. a parent being there. And with peer pressure to try this and that to fill the void... ... being rich would then be a disadvantage, possibly deadly.

(V): I think you assume it is the two parents who are working who are the rich people, and the ones who are away from their kids too much?

I dont happen to think that is accurate... I think those families are just working extra hard to stay in the middle class, or are middle class working extra hard to get a few extra comforts for their families... but I can see where too much work equals neglect for the children and that can have consequences.

Artful Dodger:

And we also know that our "representatives" will spend our money very easily - and they can't be trusted. Even if they could be trusted, "spreading the wealth around" amounts to theft.

..... a good example we all might remember..... the stimulus package Bam just signed? Billions to increase welfare, and billions more to extend unemployment insurance (yes insurance) benefits!

Tuesday: The problem is with the system then.... its like using your finger to plug holes in a dam, I say fix the dam, you say lets fill more holes?

We all pay for insurance, my car my home my health, I have never seen the government offer to pay for things my insurance company didnt cover?

Its called unemployment insurance for a reason...

I am a self employed contractor, I cant even get unemployment insurance, I have had very little work this winter, and as a result, I am currently making $2.01 an hour waiting on tables in a restaurant.

I just dont know why people cannot find some sort of work???? I think it is better for me and for the economy for me to be a waiter, as opposed to me having my unemployment benefits increased by taking tax payers money and basically giving it away in a hand out.

If I had insurance, maybe i would hold out, spend more of my time looking for contractor work, and if the government was going to increase the amount of time I could collect, then i would probably hold off from taking that waiter job until the cash finally ran out..... its like the leaking dam, all you are doing is giving someone money to delay the inevitable.

Tuesday: Part of keeping unemployment is proof of job searching I think.


Yes, except that you arent required to look for or take a job that is not at least equal to the one you lost..... many people simply go to the same place they know is not hiring and keep applying there every week or two....


As far as grants, i dont mind that idea, as long as they go out fairly, without a bias towards race etc, but I dont know that much about grants, are they all federal grants, or state or private?

Czuch: Um, I was simply commenting on the blanket statement that drugs are a cause of poverty. There is a bit of a difference between a debate and a discussion.

I don't fall into one of your cute little labeled "liberal", "conservative" boxes.

rod03801:

I don't fall into one of your cute little labeled "liberal", "conservative" boxes.


I always get a good chuckle over those kinds of comments.... there is no such being as one who is truly non partisan

Yes, some can be fiscal conservatives and social liberals, or some combo like that... but to not be some form of either????

The funny thing, really, is that most of the people who do make statements like that, think it is a good thing... "oh, not me, I am an independent thinker, I dont fall into any categories.... blah blah blah"

when the reality is, they are saying they dont have any real convictions at all

I have always maintained that I prefer a far left liberal nut case who is willing and able to stand up for their beliefs and admit them and back them up, than some middle of the road fence sitter, who floats around the world like an amoeba in the ocean..... but thats just me

Czuch: I truly enjoyed your response scoffing at me. Insulting, while trying not to sound insulting. I like that.

You are right, I can definitely have some of my attitudes put into the conservative box, and some put into the liberal box. I don't recall saying that I couldn't. I was simply saying that I am not totally one or the other. I mostly consider myself a Libertarian, but probably mostly lean towards the conservative side of things. (And you may be surprised that actually, I agree with 80% of the things that you type)

I am SO glad I could provide you with such a good chuckle.

I have many convictions Very strong ones, as a matter of fact

It saddens me that you don't approve of me. I hope it's a warm ocean you have me floating around in, like an amoeba. (Even though you know NOTHING about what I stand for)

rod03801: I hope it's a warm ocean you have me floating around in, like an amoeba. (Even though you know NOTHING about what I stand for)


hahahahaha.... actually, by that point in my post i was thinking more about BBW....hahahahah sorry!

rod03801: Blame the person who abuses themselves through having being abused? ...... The only thing I say is what I've seen.... Don't blame the abused person, only get them to admit they have a problem. Do you think they wanted to be abused?

As for marijuana ... It depends on the type as there are two active ingredients, THC and CBD. The first is good for pain and the second is a good anti psychotic. As one scientist said who is growing the plants for our gov.. "It depends on how the plant is grown as to much THC lowers the production of CBD in the plant.

As for saying it's the person with the harder drugs... Again, you cannot blame a heavily abused person (of all 4 types of abuse that I know of) being abused and therefore using heavy drugs to run from the pain... You ask a professional in the field and they will tell you the same if they are any good.

(V): hmm.. I don't recall saying anything about abused people. A significant number of people who use drugs are not doing it because they are/were abused. Many do it because they like the effects, for whatever reason.

rod03801: No you didn't, but I was stating a matter of fact about people abusing themselves that is known by health professionals in mental care, counsellors, healers, clergy and any other person who has taken the time to look into why.

As you say, there is a reason why.

rod03801:
Many do it because they like the effects, for whatever reason.

That may be true, but what made them try it in the first instance? There has to be some underlying reason that one ever takes that first hit or drink or whatever it is, might there be some underlying abuse that caused that?

Czuch: Another possible is Post Traumatic Stress, I know one guy who fought in Northern Ireland during the troubles... Having your mate's head explode right in front of you from a bullet still leaves him with nightmares.

Czuch: Sure, a huge amount of the time there is probably some abuse that brought people to drugs. And many times, people just like it. I just don't agree that drugs cause poverty, and I guess I was really only responding to a blanket statement. It's certainly more complicated than that. Many who experience poverty, and are on drugs, probably are those ones who fall into that abused category

I don't really know what I would say causes poverty. Aren't there probably lots of different causes? A lot of it could definitely be remedied if people wouldn't define themselves as "victims", and would stop whining and do something about it. There comes a time when you have to fight it and get a backbone and figure out what you can do to take care of yourself. There are OF COURSE cases where someone truly IS a victim, so much so that they need help, and I'm all for that! I would prefer that be taken care of locally, rather than federally though.

rod03801: It's not always that simple or easy. People have to learn how and learn how not. If the how nots are well established then a person may take a long time to get rid of them and replaces them with how.

(V): There are some who simply make a bad decision.... they think that selling drugs or doing other crimes will get them money faster and easier than getting a real job..... and most of the time they are right. But they are just too lazy to make money the old fashioned way, and then down the road, when they are hooked on drugs and in and out of jail, and having babies out of wed lock and all the other ills that go along with becoming criminals, thats when you want me to have compassion, and feel sorry for them because they are drug addicted and poor... its just too late for compassion when someone has made their own bed with bad choices.

Czuch: I'm afraid 'role models' are abound in this day and age. Which leads people to try 'easy lives'... certain addictions are very hard to beat as you fully well know. Even with certain prescription drugs it can be a case that the person has to drop dosages to come off.

And unfortunately, a bad 'decision' can affect your employment opportunities, leading to temptation. Maybe there could be a change in the size of an effect when it comes to certain crimes and that people are made to remember that the debt has been paid off.

"its just too late for compassion when someone has made their own bed with bad choices."

No Czuch, you cannot really have compassion unless you understand the way of things and the dynamics of why... not quite true, you can see that there is a why even if you don't know which why..

... Sometimes people are molded, moved movers, not in control of themselves but possessed by 'demons' that dictate their decisions, so their will is not free. They are not making the choices as they are not aware, just surviving.