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 Pente


Pente & its variants.

Here are the Pente rules for beginners



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11. Abril 2003, 14:06:25
Walter Montego 
Asunto: It is a variant and now I can't play it on this site
<Thanks to you and your other champion friends and keepers of all that's pure and standard of Pente as played on a 19 X 19 board. Why do you and Dmitri think that what you say about Pente should be taken as gospel? Yeah, you're good players. So what? If you don't see what's happened to Pente in it's 25 year history, why are you asking me if I have? It was a fad briefly and has faded away. The internet has done more to give it a new lease on life than any of these ideas of yours have done to promote it. By design or not it's a good thing IYT made the 13 X 13 board and used the original move rules too. Had they gone and made it as you guys would have it from the start I believe a lot less people would play it, nor would there be much discussion here about it or it's future. You're too close to it. Lots of trees, where is that forest? So what if I think chess is a better game? Why should that stop me from playing any game that's not chess? You don't like playing without the move restriction, so that gives you the right to make it so I can't play without it? And you're mad? Perhaps you should have been more engaging in the earlier posts and you could have anticipated some of mine and other's reaction to what you've done. Oh well. You've won this game too.

As for games involving luck. There's plenty of big tournaments involving them. Of games most people play or have heard of. Backgammon, Cribbage, Bridge to name three. Thousands of people play them regularly and daily. So there's a Pente tournament and 20 or 30 of might show up. It's news in Missouri, but I doubt if I'll find any mention of it in the Los Angeles Times. Perhaps the fact that there isn't a sponsor should clue you in to the problem. They don't see any future in it, nor do they want to put their money into it even if there's none to be made from it. I wonder why? Like I said earlier, it's too bad I'm not rich, I'd sponsor some Pente tournaments. Not enough so you'd get a professional player living off his winnings, but enough so that it might make the paper from time to time when the tour hit town. Like Bridge and Cribbage do.

You are quite mistaken in your belief that luck is not a good selling point. When there's no luck involved, the better player wins almost every time unless the game can be played perfectly then one player or the other always wins. In a game with luck, this isn't true. It usually is, but not every time. People can root for the underdog and know he might win. Hence the popularity of Poker and the almost complete obscurity of Pente. Chess is about the only game of pure skill that has such a big following. It's history among games is quite unique in a lot of ways. Even the design of the board and men is a history lesson.

My friends will stop by and ask what I'm playing on the computer. If I say Pente, I get blank looks. If I say Chess, they know what I'm playing. Go ahead, blame it on my ignorant friends if that's what you think. I've been playing games in this neighborhood for over 40 years and that's how it is. I have to search out places to play other games.
Chess is dying in a certain way. Computers will eventually play it better than people do. It's already happened to Checkers and it's going to happen to Chess. I was happy to see Kasparov play and win a game. Oh, by the way, who won the match?

Perhaps the guy that beat you 6 times in a row was using a computer? Or he just plays better than you? That's a big problem with this internet game playing. That's one reason I like Dark Chess. No kibitzers and no computer players. Just because a game doesn't have perfect information in it doesn't mean it's not a hard or challenging game to play well. Bridge is hard game to master. Dark Chess, though new, is looking like such a game too. Obvisiously there's skill in it or I'd not have such a record at it. Even Backgammon has skill, though it definitely has a lot of luck in it. The amount of luck determines how one should play the game if he wants to be successful at it. Being able to play without perfect information requires a type of judgment that Chess and Pente do not have in them. It forces one to make assumptions and take chances at times during the game. That never happens in a well played game of Chess or Pente. It's all on the board staring you in the face. In theory, it shouldn't matter who your opponent is as long as you make the best move each time. Especially games that have perfect information like Chess or Pente or Checkers. Since I have to assume every opponent can use aids or cheat at their leisure, I can't see why you get so worked up over what version of the game two of us might be playing. The games don't count in the official standings of anything and I just want to have some fun. And you don't have to play the game if you don't like how the game is played. It bears repeating since you just don't seem to get that and keep whipping out these Chess analogies about missing Rooks and now have helped eliminate one form of a game that many people enjoy and didn't ask you if they wanted to play better or serious or become leading players and champions of. Chess starts with a supposedly equally matched sides, as does Pente. Going first creates inequalties in both games. Obviously to you it's very pronounced in Pente toward the player moving first. Lots of people can't see that, or if aware of it don't care. They just want to play with simple rules and switch sides and play another game when the one they're playing is done.

Just how much study of our games are you doing? I'm easy pickings for a champion like yourself. You're on everyday and you can't make a move in our game? Especially a game that you are using to prove a point? I was hoping that one of the others in your demostration might win a game, but now it doesn't matter since Fencer has gone and made your change anyway.

I can too say this!
>> Pente will probably never be as popular as chess, nor, I dare say, even as popular as it once was. Do you deny that this is true? Sure I can't predict the future, but the past is there for all to see. Based on that and how things seem to be going, I might be pretty close to the short term future too. Say out to about 100,000 years?

I read all your posts in the places the I've replied. I even try to understnd where you and others are coming from when you type the things that you do. Not like it appears you or especially Dmitri have done towards ellieoops' earlier post or Kevin's. I may not be the best communicator of my ideas and ideals, but I don't say things I know to be false.

Chess is more popular now than ever? You are wrong about that. Maybe in shear numbers of players(U.S. population growth), but not in overall awareness or interest in the general population is that true. I have to assume that you're under thirty years old to say that. Or your memory is slipping. Bobby Fischer's match with Boris Spassky was lots bigger newswise than the Deep Blue deal is or has been. FIDE, now there's a top notch, well run organization to emulate if I ever saw one! Right. You would be better off trying the ACBL as an organization to copy. Their game is fading away, but they are taking steps to keep it going for the while and even reverse the trend. Most games need younger players coming into the game to keep steady or expand. Bridge is graying daily. Why don't you and the other players of Pente form a syndicate and buy the rights from Milton Bradley? I bet it wouldn't cost too much. Under a million bucks for sure.

You didn't think much of my theory that in the early 1980's a major part of Pente's decline was caused be video games, CD's, music videos and computers. It sounds a lot more plausable than anything else I've heard. Chess weathered the storm in part because computer programmers used it to demostrate computer programming and because it really is a good game. Though it has perfect information, the number of different moves is still beyond any reckoning and it gives each game played a sense of novelty to it. I've only played a few hundred games of Pente and Keryo Pente, but there's a lot of sameness to a lot of the games. Yes it is just appearance as I've learned from playing that a slight difference of position is completely different game, but compare the first five moves in Pente to Chess's first five moves. Still, Pente has a lot of novelty for me and there are times that I'm very surprised in how a game goes. I also like patterns made while playing. I've commented on it to some of my opponents, but I've not received much response in that area. You were the first person I seen made mention of it.

The someone that suggested the game with two five in a rows or one six in a row or longer or bag twice as many dudes was me. I came up with the idea awhile back and tried to interest IYT and have mentioned it to a couple of my opponents on IYT to see what kind of response it'd get. I believe this version would be best on the 19 X 19 board and a move restriction wouldn't be nescessary, but couldn't hurt it either. Since none of my friends play Pente, I have no way to easily play such a game. As with the 10 X 10 board. When I joined this site and found the message boards I posted it again. I believe the first time was on the tournament board before we moved things over to this section of postings.

So I say things I apparently have very little knowledge or way of proving. You do the same thing. What's the difference? You can have the soapbox when I step off of it.

And back to this post's main point. I used to have a choice as to what version of Keryo Pente to play, now I don't. You get to play the version you like on both size boards now. I'm joining this site as a paying member, but I think I will stay on at IYT too. If only to play Keryo Pente on the 13 X 13 board without the move restriction. It'll be my luck though and they'll suddenly see your way and change it there too.

11. Abril 2003, 17:41:33
Dmitri King 
Asunto: Re: It is a variant and now I can't play it on this site
Walter, you don't know what you are talking about!! Here is what you said:

" By design or not it's a good thing IYT made the 13 X 13 board and used the original move rules too. Had they gone and made it as you guys would have it from the start I believe a lot less people would play it, nor would there be much discussion here about it or it's future. "

This is nonsense!!!! On what are you basing this? NOTHING! You just made it up! Had IYT implemented the correct rules AND the correct sized board in the first place, The same people would be playing the game as are playing it now. How can I say this? SIMPLE-- you imply that people would not have played it because of a lack of a 13 X 13 board. Well, no one wuold have had any REASON to think that way, since the 13 X 13 board would have never existed! As for the restriction, the same can be said. So I would appreciate if you would not just make things up to suit your weak arguments.

11. Abril 2003, 17:50:26
Dmitri King 
Asunto: WALTER ARE YOU NUTS?????
You referred to bridge as a game of luck. I wish I could assume you were joking, but sadly, you did not apepar to be.

Also, you say "The games don't count in the official standings of anything and I just want to have some fun. And you don't have to play the game if you don't like how the game is played. It bears repeating since you just don't seem to get that ..."

Walter, you are STILL FAILING TO EXPLAIN why playing with the restriction limits your fun in any way! that you REPETAEDLY fail to address this shows that you don't even really believe your own drivel!

You say that your statement bears repeating because we don't get it??

YOU DON'T GET IT! your statement is INVALID!!!!! DID YOU READ ANYING GARY AND I WROTE? You have the gall to question our study and research when you don't even pay attention to our points of argument? We SPECIFICALLY rejected each of your claims with SOLID arguments, and all you do is dismiss them by repeating a blanket statement!!!!!!!!! Why do you think that is a good way of making your point?

Let me furhter illustrate, since you are deliberately missing our point.

I don't like LOTS of games. I do not like battleboats, any form of checkers, connect 4, risk, and many others. BUT, DO YOU HEAR ME OBJECTING TO THOSE GAMES????????????????


NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So your implication that we are objecting to the pante "variant" simply because we do not like it IS AN INVALID IMPLICATON ON YOUR PART!!!!!!!!!!

It also shows that you are not actually addressing our individual points, because we EXPLAINED VERY CLEARLY why our opposition to the variant goes FAR BEYOND our just not liking it!

11. Abril 2003, 21:21:21
Walter Montego 
Asunto: Re: WALTER ARE YOU NUTS?????
I did not refer to Bridge as a game of luck. I said it is a game that has luck involved in it. A lot smaller than the amount of luck in Backgammon or Cribbage, but there's still some luck involved. Perhaps you should read my posts more carefully as you criticize my reasoning and debating skills. You might be right about my ascertain that IYT did right with the game. If they never had put it on, then no one would be playing it. Isn't that what I said? You still attacked it. I notice you didn't argue with the fading away of Pente that I made up. And just how is it that you argue that Pente without the move restriction isn't variant of Pente? The original game was played that way! Surely that qualifies as a variant?! So that version has fallen from favor by the powers that be(read: you). It is still a variant, not something else. The current version was made up out of it.
I never mentioned your father, either. I was right, your mom is proud of you. And look who's nitpicking over my use of grammar. Least ways I do pretty good for a high school drop out Mr. Test Giver. I'm glad I'm not one of your students.

I'm glad you're healthy, you have me there. Perhaps I've been fooling myself and my actions on this board have just been a justification to myself to stay up late and not be able to get my lazy self up and over to the gym to work out nor ride my bicycle to work. Geez, I missed work today just so I could reply to your posts. Yep, I'm beginning to see the error in my ways and am getting soft in head and body because of it.

None other than Gary himself told me that Milton Bradley bought the rights to Pente in 1984. Why don't you ask him? Maybe he has it wrong and I shouldn't use him for information, but I've had no reason to doubt him. Perhaps the next time you attack me for saying something like Milton Bradley has the rights or anything else that I make up, it would help your side of the argument to bring the facts with you and directly refute it.

So what if you are one the best players of Pente in the country, world, universe? An achievement to be sure, but there's more to it that. You sure don't carry yourself like a champion. I am the best Building player in the world, though not the current champion. I appear to be one of the best Dark Chess players, though I think the game can be played better than I play it and I think this of Building too. The world is not black and white as you seem to draw it. Lots of grey areas.

Your proposed solution is what others and myself have said all long. Except for changing the name of the game that is. Each version could have it's own name, you act like that's a major deal. I would lump them under a Pente banner and then list the versions there. It'd be easy to find. Kind of like what Fencer did with these post boards when he put them under the Line4 and variant heading. People are way ahead of you here.

Let's play some games on the side Dmitri. Sure you'll win all the games, but atleast these rants of yours and mine can be between us and save the rest of the people from having to read it. Entertaining as they might be. Nah, perhaps we already have the right forum, never mind.

Got to go, perhaps more later though I'm getting doubtful about it.

11. Abril 2003, 21:35:08
Dmitri King 
Asunto: Bridge
okay, as per your request of reading your messages more carefully, I took anohter look at your post. Granted, you did not say Luck was the orimary factor in bridge, but you did say it is a game involving luck.

Here I disagree. It involves no more luck than baseball or football or other games that are almost entirely based on skill. Sure, sometimes a lucky bounce on a bunt attempt is needed, but more often than not, it is the bunter's skill that will determine the succcess or failure of the bunt.

Is it lack of skill that causes a wide receiver to come up .5 inches short of the first doen marker? Maybe, because he could have run a better route, but also he was just a bit unlucky.

But, baseball and football are still considered games of skill that luck has hardly anything to do with. The net effect of luck is usually negligible.

In bridge, is it luck that determines whether a finesse succeeds? SOmetimes it is, but often it is skill. The net effect of brisge is negligible. The cards that are dealt are a non afctor, becasue competitive bridghe is played in some sort of suplicate form where everyone plays the same hands.

I am not sure why we were talking about bridge, but that is my take on bridge. I don't exactly remember how it fit into our pente discussion.

11. Abril 2003, 21:43:17
Dmitri King 
Asunto: Re: WALTER ARE YOU NUTS?????
Walter, I disagree with your stance that pente has faded away. the game is fairly popular right now on the internet sites, so I do not consider it to have faded away. now, to address something specific:

you say "So that version has fallen from favor by the powers that be(read: you)."

Where are you getting this? NO serious player considers the game without the restriction to be a legitimate variant. Dozens and dozens of top players would attest to the fact that the ONLY way to play pente is WITH the restriction.

11. Abril 2003, 21:46:50
Dmitri King 
Asunto: grammar, and such
you say "And look who's nitpicking over my use of grammar. Least ways I do pretty good for a high school drop out Mr. Test Giver. I'm glad I'm not one of your students. "

Walter, I mentioned yourgrammar ONLY because you stated that I was not being careful with my posting and that you were. That is the ONLY reason I mentioned it. My point is, everyone fails to be thorough at times, either with gramamr or in completely reading someone's post. But I try to adress each indivisual point of someone's argument.

You say you are glad you are not one of mystudents? Well, if you are a hihg school dropout, you obviously wouldn;t be in need of my classes, which are preparation for the SAT. BUt if you did need to prepare, you would be missing out by not being in my class, because I am probably one of the very best.

11. Abril 2003, 21:50:16
Dmitri King 
Asunto: rights to pente
you say "None other than Gary himself told me that Milton Bradley bought the rights to Pente in 1984. Why don't you ask him? Maybe he has it wrong and I shouldn't use him for information, but I've had no reason to doubt him. Perhaps the next time you attack me for saying something like Milton Bradley has the rights or anything else that I make up, it would help your side of the argument to bring the facts with you and directly refute it. "

1984 was a long time ago. Gary never said that company still owns the rights, and it doesn't.

11. Abril 2003, 21:54:40
Dmitri King 
Asunto: name change
"Your proposed solution is what others and myself have said all long. Except for changing the name of the game that is. Each version could have it's own name, you act like that's a major deal. I would lump them under a Pente banner and then list the versions there. It'd be easy to find. Kind of like what Fencer did with these post boards when he put them under the Line4 and variant heading. People are way ahead of you here"

Walter, the name change was the FOCAL POINT of my solution. You cannot just remove it and then say my colution si what everyone has been saying all along!

WHen a version of pente has the same name as pente, and people then see that is has less restrictions on the opening, they will ASSUME it to be the REAL version, and that the other game (the correct one) is the variant! That is BAD for the game of pente.

There seem to be two conflicting ideas here:

1) the promotion of the game of pente and
2) the enjoyment of the game by non0-serious players and beginners

But, they do NOT have to be conflicting! they can be COMPATIBLE!

WHy not give the game without the restriction a chance? After three months, you might find that you do not haveany interest in the other variant any more.

We HAVE givewn the existence of the no-restriction game a chance, and we have WITNESSED the problams it has caused-- specifically, the setback in development of players because of having to relearn the opening rules. ALso, it has caused confusion as to which is the "real version."

11. Abril 2003, 17:53:35
Dmitri King 
Asunto: Walter, shooting holes in your arguments is like shooting fish in a barrel
you say "Lots of people can't see that, or if aware of it don't care. They just want to play with simple rules and switch sides and play another game when the one they're playing is done. "

Do you THINK before you write this stuff?

I already told you -- If people don't care, as you stated, then why do they CARE what ruiles there are? You are blatantly contradicting yourself!!!!

ALso, there is NOTHING complicated about the restriction. Your claim that people want to play with simple rules in INVALID, because you are basing it on a fasle premise (the false premise being that the restriction is complicated).

11. Abril 2003, 18:04:29
Dmitri King 
Asunto: Factual accuracy from Walter?
Walter, who told you that Milton Bradley owns the rights to pente?

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